Tsuanmi sound decoders going bye bye

[edwardsutorik]

I just put my newly received Loksound-equipped Rivarossi U28C's (one BN and one NP) on the test track. The sound is superb. And so is the running. And all those lights. For the BN, besides the headlights, there's a number board switch, and two "emergency" light switches. HOORAY for 21 pins!!!!

It's getting so that if a new loco is Loksound equipped, it gets 10 extra points at decision time.


Ed

I stated in this post earlier that these locos had a switch for the class lights. Nope. Numberboard lights. Sorry.

[selector]

I'm rather late to this slugfest (part of it, anyway). I only wanted to say that I stopped buying Tsunami decoders about six years ago. To me, the Paragon 2 and QSI decoders that were out at the time were good value and had better steam sounds. At that time, Tsunamis were already staid and four years dated. Their sounds were generic back then. Rod clank and the others were good in 2006 (full props), but they spent a lot of time updating diesel sounds and forgot steam, still almost 50% of the market.

[antoniofp45]

Forgot to ask.......

Earlier on this thread it was mentioned that QSI decoders are "hard to get?". Vendors are still listing them. From my understanding, the QSI Titan has decent sound qualities and features including sound scheme uploadability.

So is QSI still a strong player in this market and does the Titan stack up favorably against the Tsunami and the Loksound V4.0?

[kentuckysouthernrwy]

Anyone interested might read the dcc column in the Oct 2015 issue of Model Railroad Hobbyist e-magazine. The columnist talks a bit on installing the Economi decoder in a Walthers GP15 then mentions that there are new Tsunami replacements being planned. Oh the fun that would have been missed had anyone actually had that information 2-3 pages earlier.

Now I only have one Tsunami, jumped in during the initial excitement, that I hate and will not be buying any more of thier products in the future.

[mlehman]

Geez, the forum's been slow the last day or two.

But I came across some news that might be of interest. One of my more reliable sources indicated that the much-anticipated new (product-improved replacement) decoder from ST will feature...ahem...

*provision for user-uploadable sound files*

There will be other goodies, to be sure, but this suggests a very attractive new product will soon arrive. I suspect the whole package will put to rest most of the gripes about things being behind the curve of competitive products.

[riogrande]

Better late than never. Of course it's the sounds the we get those things for so that remains to be seen. So far I only have sound that came factory installed but right now if I were to buy a sound decoder with what is presently available, based on what I've heard - Loksound is my choice. A year or two from now - we'll see!

[mlehman]

Jim,
All I can say is that building a better future takes investment and patience. Patience is a virtue, although you'd hardly think so around here some days. It seems some actually expect every morning to be Xmas morning or something. Sounds like hype to me.

I suspect that the investments ST has been making to build decoders itself right here in the ol' USA *like it always has* will pay off. I know it's going to be a hard habit to break for a few -- and some will continue to hate on ST just because -- but I strongly suspect that we're about to see a very competitive product come to market that's going to make choosing a lot harder, but which should richly reward the consumer.

[riogrande]

Mike,
Since sound is not a priority for me and I don't have any major loyalty to any sound company like some may have; just my ears - and as I've said, right now for diesel sounds, Loksound sounds quite good based on numerous samples I've heard. I don't think it's a "hate" issue with ST - I've read some strong opinions by people who are not NG steam people, people who were heavily into ST and switched for good "sound" (no pun intended) reasons. If your happy with ST, then what does it matter what others say, really?

I'm in no hurry and don't have budget to experiment or play with sound atm either. If/when the time comes to add sound to a silent unit, I'll do some research, listen and go with what sounds best to me at that point in time. With some 5 or 6 sound companies floating around, we don't really have shortage of choice. I've always said, choice is good. That way we can pick the cream of the crop!

[Tom]

Not sure where the word "hate" comes in. However, in reality they started out very well, but haven't kept competitive in this small market. The bigger failing, for me, was not listening and flat-out dismissing what their customers were telling them almost a decade ago.
Now, suddenly, these exact features they said "no" to are supposedly coming to fruition. They've had at least (I'll cut them a break here) eight years to work on it, so let's hope it's close to what some of the competition offers.

[atsfan]

To me it makes sense to sell as few designs for decoders as possible.
And then simply let whatever sound the owner wants be loaded on the decoders
The differentiation will be sound quality. Price. And DCC ease of functionality.

[notabob]

Mar 2, 2016 8:07:10 GMT -8 mlehman said:

Geez, the forum's been slow the last day or two.

But I came across some news that might be of interest. One of my more reliable sources indicated that the much-anticipated new (product-improved replacement) decoder from ST will feature...ahem...

*provision for user-uploadable sound files*

There will be other goodies, to be sure, but this suggests a very attractive new product will soon arrive. I suspect the whole package will put to rest most of the gripes about things being behind the curve of competitive products.

At this point in the game ability for users to upload sound files themselves is just playing catch-up.  If they didn't include the capability in their new offering, they would be relegated to OEM market almost exclusively, and even that would come under threat.  So is 21-pin support.  They are thankfully moving toward supporting the NEM (Euro) 21-pin interface on the new model, which is somewhat different from the NMRA-only 21-pin standard they have on the Econami, but again - that's just playing catch-up with the competition and not particularly exciting in my book.

Now, what we don't know yet is whether the new sound decoder model from SoundTraxx offers something truly disruptive.  Beyond the typical and often subjective claims, such as "Ours has better motor control" or "Our decoder has more realistic sounds" - here are some capabilities that might be considered disruptive (have no idea if any of these are coming from SoundTraxx in the new decoder or not, these are just examples of what could set them apart):

-  Onboard Bluetooth interface.  The hardware is small and cheap enough these days to be able to offer that without a significant impact on overall cost materials or production. This will offer several new capabilities.  1) Ability to upload user-generated sound files to the decoder without a dedicated and costly programmer tool.  This is very tough to do in a traditional way on a DCC programming track as bandwidth is extremely limited via DCC.  Even though smaller incremental sounds files (such as an add-on horn sound, for instance), might be theoretically possible, uploads will still take forever and be prone to errors.  2) Remote control over the air.  In fact, Bachmann already offers control of a locomotive from a phone app via BlueTooth.  Not sure who makes the hardware for them, but if it's based on SoundTraxx-designed silicone - we may be getting a similar capability in a retail version now.  

-  Simplified ability to set scale speed.  Ability to enable a mode where speed steps equal actual speed would be great.  There would be some basic calibration required to match motor revolutions to distance traveled, but it should be doable.  Pre-defined presets for different models (e.g. Genesis GP38-2 = X motor revolutions per scale yard; Kato SD40-2 = Y revolutions per scale yard; etc.) could be pre-configured in the decoder or user-programmable.  Today this process involves convoluted NMRA speed table configuration, but automating that via decoder firmware would be most welcome.  Call this feature "Scale-Speed(TM)".

-  "Decoder App-Store".  You buy a base decoder for a reasonably low price with a limited sound-set (perhaps a similar price point to EcoNami).  You can then purchase add-on sounds and capability plug-ins.  So, if you want just basic sounds - you can get that.  You want a 'Shave and a Haircut' K3LA?  $1.  You want dynamic brakes?  $2.  You want that "Scale-Speed(TM)" plug-in I described?  $5.  You want your decoder to sing you "Happy Birthday, Mr. President" in Marilyn's voice when you press a function key?  You may have issues.  Oh, and $7.  Now, realistically - this is a pretty radical departure from the current model of selling sound decoders where the HW is what you pay for and sound files are free downloads, but that is in large part a factor of the current hobby demographic's relatively limited level of comfort with the app-store economy.  As the app-happy micro-payment-friendly millennial generation matures in this hobby - I'm pretty confident that this business model could work in the future. 

We'll see if SoundTraxx will offer anything truly disruptive or will come out with yet another "me too" decoder a-la TCS WowSound.  I remain hopeful for the former, but additional competition in the space will be welcome regardless.

[atsfan]

Mar 2, 2016 10:58:50 GMT -8 notabob said:

Mar 2, 2016 8:07:10 GMT -8 mlehman said:

Geez, the forum's been slow the last day or two.

But I came across some news that might be of interest. One of my more reliable sources indicated that the much-anticipated new (product-improved replacement) decoder from ST will feature...ahem...

*provision for user-uploadable sound files*

There will be other goodies, to be sure, but this suggests a very attractive new product will soon arrive. I suspect the whole package will put to rest most of the gripes about things being behind the curve of competitive products.

At this point in the game ability for users to upload sound files themselves is just playing catch-up.  If they didn't include the capability in their new offering, they would be relegated to OEM market almost exclusively, and even that would come under threat.  So is 21-pin support.  They are thankfully moving toward supporting the NEM (Euro) 21-pin interface on the new model, which is somewhat different from the NMRA-only 21-pin standard they have on the Econami, but again - that's just playing catch-up with the competition and not particularly exciting in my book.

Now, what we don't know yet is whether the new sound decoder model from SoundTraxx offers something truly disruptive.  Beyond the typical and often subjective claims, such as "Ours has better motor control" or "Our decoder has more realistic sounds" - here are some capabilities that might be considered disruptive (have no idea if any of these are coming from SoundTraxx in the new decoder or not, these are just examples of what could set them apart):

-  Onboard Bluetooth interface.  The hardware is small and cheap enough these days to be able to offer that without a significant impact on cost of cost. This will offer several new capabilities.  1) Ability to upload user-generated sound files to the decoder without a dedicated and costly programmer tool.  This is very tough to do in a traditional way on a DCC programming track as bandwidth is extremely limited via DCC.  Even though smaller incremental sounds files (such as an add-on horn sound, for instance), might be theoretically possible, uploads will still take forever and be prone to errors.  2) Remote control over the air.  In fact, Bachmann already offers control of a locomotive from a phone app via BlueTooth.  Not sure who makes the hardware for them, but if it's based on SoundTraxx-designed silicone - we may be getting a similar capability in a retail version now.  

-  Simplified ability to set scale speed.  Ability to enable a mode where speed steps equal actual speed would be great.  There would be some basic calibration required to match motor revolutions to distance traveled, but it should be doable.  Pre-defined presets for different models (e.g. Genesis GP38-2 = X motor revolutions per scale yard; Kato SD40-2 = Y revolutions per scale yard; etc.) could be pre-configured in the decoder or user-programmable.  Today this process involves convoluted NMRA speed table configuration, but automating that via decoder firmware would be most welcome.  Call this feature "Scale-Speed(TM)".

-  "Decoder App-Store".  You buy a base decoder for a reasonably low price with a limited sound-set (perhaps a similar price point to EcoNami).  You can then purchase add-on sounds and capability plug-ins.  So, if you want just basic sounds - you can get that.  You want a 'Shave and a Haircut' K3LA?  $1.  You want dynamic brakes?  $2.  You want that "Scale-Speed(TM)" plug-in I described?  $5.  You want your decoder to sing you "Happy Birthday, Mr. President" in Marilyn's voice when you press a function key?  You may have issues.  Oh, and $7.  Now, realistically - this is a pretty radical departure from the current model of selling sound decoders where the HW is what you pay for and sound files are free downloads, but that is in large part a factor of the current hobby demographic's relatively limited level of comfort with the app-store economy.  As the app-happy micro-payment-friendly millennial generation matures in this hobby - I'm pretty confident that this business model could work in the future. 

We'll see if SoundTraxx will offer anything truly disruptive or will come out with yet another "me too" decoder a-la TCS WowSound.  I remain hopeful for the former, but additional competition in the space will be welcome regardless.

Excellent ideas

[mlehman]

notabob,
Yeah, I don't know about "disruptive." Seeing these things in terms of how we judge computer technology is understandable, but the market is such that the "expected" is already a pretty high bar given what's come to market since the Tsunami. First off, the new decoder will likely address many of the features that people now find in other decoders. The fact that the Econami has already filled many of those holes is a good sign that the new top-end decoder will do that and more.

Mar 2, 2016 10:58:50 GMT -8 notabob said:

-  Onboard Bluetooth interface.  The hardware is small and cheap enough these days to be able to offer that without a significant impact on overall cost materials or production. This will offer several new capabilities.  1) Ability to upload user-generated sound files to the decoder without a dedicated and costly programmer tool.  This is very tough to do in a traditional way on a DCC programming track as bandwidth is extremely limited via DCC.  Even though smaller incremental sounds files (such as an add-on horn sound, for instance), might be theoretically possible, uploads will still take forever and be prone to errors.  2) Remote control over the air.  In fact, Bachmann already offers control of a locomotive from a phone app via BlueTooth.  Not sure who makes the hardware for them, but if it's based on SoundTraxx-designed silicone - we may be getting a similar capability in a retail version now.  

The B-mann connection had not occurred to me (and there is a relationship there, between OEM decoders and building Blackstone for ST), but you may be onto something there. There IS a need to get files onto a user-loadable decoder and the current DCC standard doesn't really address this as currently implemented. That's why Lok and others have to come up with their own system. I suspect this is one of the "expectations" that ST has to fill, so something is in the works with that.

I can't say I'd have much use for a Bluetooth option unless the interface app is sweet, but I can see how it would be handy.

Mar 2, 2016 10:58:50 GMT -8 notabob said:

-  Simplified ability to set scale speed.  Ability to enable a mode where speed steps equal actual speed would be great.  There would be some basic calibration required to match motor revolutions to distance traveled, but it should be doable.  Pre-defined presets for different models (e.g. Genesis GP38-2 = X motor revolutions per scale yard; Kato SD40-2 = Y revolutions per scale yard; etc.) could be pre-configured in the decoder or user-programmable.  Today this process involves convoluted NMRA speed table configuration, but automating that via decoder firmware would be most welcome.  Call this feature "Scale-Speed(TM)".

Well, something is going on in that respect already with the Econami. The Tsunami uses a synthesized chuff in the absence of a physical cam. The Econami has a "Motor-load synced Auto-Exhaust chuff" instead, that reads directly off the motor. Thus there is some basis for what you'd like to see suggested by that. This is a complex area, though, so who knows how much is doable.

Mar 2, 2016 10:58:50 GMT -8 notabob said:

-  "Decoder App-Store".  You buy a base decoder for a reasonably low price with a limited sound-set (perhaps a similar price point to EcoNami).  You can then purchase add-on sounds and capability plug-ins.  So, if you want just basic sounds - you can get that.  You want a 'Shave and a Haircut' K3LA?  $1.  You want dynamic brakes?  $2.  You want that "Scale-Speed(TM)" plug-in I described?  $5.  You want your decoder to sing you "Happy Birthday, Mr. President" in Marilyn's voice when you press a function key?  You may have issues.  Oh, and $7.  Now, realistically - this is a pretty radical departure from the current model of selling sound decoders where the HW is what you pay for and sound files are free downloads, but that is in large part a factor of the current hobby demographic's relatively limited level of comfort with the app-store economy.  As the app-happy micro-payment-friendly millennial generation matures in this hobby - I'm pretty confident that this business model could work in the future. 

I think the last part says it all. I'm not sure the nickel-and-dime approach works for me, I hate this sort of stuff myself and mostly avoid it on the few devices I own. But that "cloud" thing looms ever larger in the market and if you assume a Bluetooth or other interface to load sounds, why not? There is a little more that I've heard on this that suggests this is part of the concept, but I'll refrain from further speculation until something more official is known.

If you're going to get user-loadable sound, you're going to see it at a pricepoint above the Econami. This upcoming decoder will be a premium product, so just doesn't make sense you'll get something for nothing here vs the Econami.

Mar 2, 2016 10:58:50 GMT -8 notabob said:

We'll see if SoundTraxx will offer anything truly disruptive or will come out with yet another "me too" decoder a-la TCS WowSound.  I remain hopeful for the former, but additional competition in the space will be welcome regardless.

The only stuff I really know about the Wow is from the steam side -- and it IS considered disruptive by those who have more hands-on experience with the TCS stuff vs the Tsunami. That may be the perception of the Wow on the diesel side, so I won't discount what you say too much about the TCS product. Again, I think the search for the "killer app" that does it all for 10 cents on the dollar of what the old product cost is just not going to happen. As you noted right here, it's a small market. These aren't potatoes, they're the gourmet meals of model RRing, so expecting cheap and superior merged together just doesn't make economic sense to me.

[mlehman]

Mar 2, 2016 10:36:52 GMT -8 Tom said:

Not sure where the word "hate" comes in. However, in reality they started out very well, but haven't kept competitive in this small market. The bigger failing, for me, was not listening and flat-out dismissing what their customers were telling them almost a decade ago.
Now, suddenly, these exact features they said "no" to are supposedly coming to fruition. They've had at least (I'll cut them a break here) eight years to work on it, so let's hope it's close to what some of the competition offers.

OK, how about "bitter"? Or "preternaturally obsessed with the supposed failings of other to meet your needs" AKA narcissism? I could go on, but doubt that would be productive. People who seem to hold these attitudes seem to feel there's something to be vengeful about, even though I see it mostly as

Maybe after things become official, they'll find a new pony to trash?

I really think the idea that ST "was not listening and flat-out dismissing what their customers were telling them" for a decade, presumes that much of what available now was available 10 years ago. That's just not the case.

And I think that what will be found on the new decoder will likely demonstrate that ST has in fact been paying close attention to market expectations. They may not do it exactly the way YOU expect, but I'll bet they'll make most users pretty darn happy.

[notabob]

Mar 2, 2016 12:32:01 GMT -8 mlehman said:

notabob,
Yeah, I don't know about "disruptive." Seeing these things in terms of how we judge computer technology is understandable, but the market is such that the "expected" is already a pretty high bar given what's come to market since the Tsunami. First off, the new decoder will likely address many of the features that people now find in other decoders. The fact that the Econami has already filled many of those holes is a good sign that the new top-end decoder will do that and more.

Offering a disruptive new capability becomes more important when one considers the very long technology cycle involved. It took SoundTraxx eight years to come up with a new model. Even if it takes them four to six for the next one, a "me too" decoder in the meantime will not be enough to start regaining any significant market share from ESU. And even if SoundTraxx wanted to compete on price - ESU is manufactured in China, which enables them to be very competitive price-wise vs. SoundTraxx.

Mar 2, 2016 12:32:01 GMT -8 mlehman said:

The B-mann connection had not occurred to me (and there is a relationship there, between OEM decoders and building Blackstone for ST), but you may be onto something there. There IS a need to get files onto a user-loadable decoder and the current DCC standard doesn't really address this as currently implemented. That's why Lok and others have to come up with their own system. I suspect this is one of the "expectations" that ST has to fill, so something is in the works with that.

I can't say I'd have much use for a Bluetooth option unless the interface app is sweet, but I can see how it would be handy.

Bluetooth enables many more possibilities beyond the two I suggested. Not only is there app-based control from a smart phone or uploads from a PC (most have bluetooth built in these days), but also the possibility of centralized control from a command station or JMRI, allowing seamless integration into existing DCC systems as well as DC layouts. There are many other uses that could be thought of. It's a very flexible interface.

Mar 2, 2016 12:32:01 GMT -8 mlehman said:

Well, something is going on in that respect already with the Econami. The Tsunami uses a synthesized chuff in the absence of a physical cam. The Econami has a "Motor-load synced Auto-Exhaust chuff" instead, that reads directly off the motor. Thus there is some basis for what you'd like to see suggested by that. This is a complex area, though, so who knows how much is doable.

The capability to sense motor revolutions and load is already there indeed. I believe (but could be wrong) that many of the motor tuning options even in the current gen Tsunami rely on ability to sense current draw and motor RPM.

Mar 2, 2016 12:32:01 GMT -8 mlehman said:

If you're going to get user-loadable sound, you're going to see it at a pricepoint above the Econami. This upcoming decoder will be a premium product, so just doesn't make sense you'll get something for nothing here vs the Econami.

The price point slightly above EcoNami is the starting point. Additional revenue starts coming from the add-ons (horns, brake sounds, applications, features, etc.) Load it all up with the full package of goodies, and you're suddenly paying same or more than the current Tsunami. The benefit to customer is that they're paying for what they want/need. This a-la-carte approach is becoming 2nd nature to the younger generation. It's coming.

Mar 2, 2016 12:32:01 GMT -8 mlehman said:

The only stuff I really know about the Wow is from the steam side -- and it IS considered disruptive by those who have more hands-on experience with the TCS stuff vs the Tsunami. That may be the perception of the Wow on the diesel side, so I won't discount what you say too much about the TCS product. Again, I think the search for the "killer app" that does it all for 10 cents on the dollar of what the old product cost is just not going to happen. As you noted right here, it's a small market. These aren't potatoes, they're the gourmet meals of model RRing, so expecting cheap and superior merged together just doesn't make economic sense to me.

I'm not familiar with TCS offerings on the steam side that closely. Perhaps they're offering something truly unique. And I'm certainly not suggesting something for nothing. The new decoder should not be cheap. As I mentioned in the paragraph above - the intent is for the add-ons to quickly "add up" (pun intended). But it should be competitive (price and feature-wise) when it is released and it should be able to remain competitive for the next half a decade to be truly successful.

[atsfan]

I don't see anyone here with the following:

hate
bitterness
trashing
vengeance
obsession
narcissism

Sure are strong words.

[riogrande]

Bitter or hate both seem awfully strong. But, I can understand if people had spent many hundreds and something came along which is a great deal better from another company, a customer may feel let down if improvements were not made in their already purchased line of products year after year, especially in contrast when a better, more full featured product is offered for a similar cost. It may not be unreasonable to feel that way by some if lots of hard earned money were involved, although I haven't really gotten that sense reading through this topic. Perhaps it's because I am not heavily invested in sound that I haven't sensed bitterness or hatred. You may not feel the same because Soundtrax has provided a product that works better for the narrow gauges steam genre, and like I said, if you are happy, you should not have any axe to grind with modelers who are in a different genre and feel differently. What comes along in the future will have to significantly exceed the competition to swing sentiments back in financial terms.

[mlehman]

Mar 2, 2016 14:01:59 GMT -8 riogrande said:

Bitter or hate both seem awfully strong.

Call it what you will, but there's something in the water here beyond the factual going on in many of the negative comments. You may find a product that doesn't suit, but it's not like they're out top get you... ...or maybe not. Is the cup half full or half empty? I tend to think in terms of what I'm happy with. If anyone, any company, heck even any nation was required to fix everyone's unfulfilled desires, we'd never get much of anywhere with life in general.

Mar 2, 2016 14:01:59 GMT -8 riogrande said:

But, I can understand if people had spent many hundreds and something came along which is a great deal better from another company, a customer may feel let down if improvements were not made in their already purchased line of products year after year, especially in contrast when a better, more full featured product is offered for a similar cost. It may not be unreasonable to feel that way by some if lots of hard earned money were involved, although I haven't really gotten that sense reading through this topic.

I think you're onto something here. I suppose it could be the money, but quite frankly, the HUGE differences (a pun that I won't explore further] some see between decoders is really not all that huge. Most do the basics competently. To me, it's more about the ease with which I can get the effects I want. Some bemoan the CV212+ fields as a particular bugbear. Heck, that where I have most of my fun and I can tell you, it's far superior to QSI in that respect. Of course, DecoderPro sorts that stuff out for you now and deez kidz probably never sweat that sort of stuff anyway. To me it's important, but I don't bash QSI over it.

Then there's the weak horns thing some talk about. Must be a diesel thing? Interestingly, almost no one who mentions that ever says anything much about the equalizer settings, etc. Or maybe they like REALLY loud horns. Even in narrowgauge, I sometimes have a hard time finding a horn I like, but that may be because the Rio Grande engineers must have had a lot of tin ears among 'em, because they ARE prototype sounds. If I was half those engineers, a new whistle would be on my payday shopping list. Do I blame ST for that? Um, no, it is what it is.

But that whole "I bought last year's model and now I feel so inadequate" thing once this year's model arrives? Bummer, good thing this stuff is cheaper than new cars with some of the folks here. Because ST may have been doing them a favor by not co,ming up with something new every year. If you think about it that way, I think the cup looks half full to me. Obviously, YMMV and it brings up another thing...actually two things.

Conspicuous consumption and "gotta have the best" syndrome.

All those folks who change their decoder at the drop of the hat of the perception of what the latest and greatest is based on some arcane attribute a decoder that suddenly can't be kept in stock? Yep, both. Show us who has the big bucks and what our place is by making sure all your buddies know about is sure to impress, well, maybe yourself. And the whole "nothing but the best for me" thing? Well it's partly about conspicuous consumption, too, but it's also often about the typically male, "I know what's best..." OK, maybe for you, but this whole thing about ranking stuff and most importantly here, dissing stuff gets tedious after awhile. Can't we just have an adult discussion where we discuss, respect others opinions, try to learn from what the OTHER person has to say (srsly, are you gonna teach yourself anything new or are you going to learn from others?) and generally quit pounding our chests?

Mar 2, 2016 14:01:59 GMT -8 riogrande said:

Perhaps it's because I am not heavily invested in sound that I haven't sensed bitterness or hatred. You may not feel the same because Soundtrax has provided a product that works better for the narrow gauges steam genre, and like I said, if you are happy, you should not have any axe to grind with modelers who are in a different genre and feel differently. What comes along in the future will have to significantly exceed the competition to swing sentiments back in financial terms.

Oh, that's definitely part of it, but that experience also taught me how important sharing info is when using these sophisticated decoders. And with the wild "mine is bigger/tougher/louder than yours" attitude we get so little of that. That's all I really want out of these discussions. NGers have to stick together I suppose, but the basic trading of formulas, etc that I came to rely on has served me well and I don't see much of that with diesel. And why shouldn't that happen? People are tryiung to settle who's #1 and most of us just need to learn about the decodedrs we have, not those we imagine might be -- and don't forget super cheap!

And I understand about people finding a sound decoder interface being frustrating. If you find ST that way, wait'll you try a QSI. And nothing is as stupid as a B-mann DCC Onboard decoder, so I'd hate to imagine what OEM sound would be there if it wasn't some version of ST. Then again, I'm not out buying new locos all the time. I got what I need, other than some more Kato NW2 to bash into NG road power, I'm good until Blackstone delivers the next flavor of K that's on tap. Maybe that's why I'd rather talk about working with what I have, rather than worrying about squeezing the last dime of buyer's regret out of a transaction? It's just a fact of life that better will come along in this sort of market. Buy what you know will be good for you to stick with, because you'll otherwise always be chasing something with money you can't ever quite get -- satisfaction.

[atsfan]

"Can't we just have an adult discussion where we discuss, respect others opinions, try to learn from what the OTHER person has to say (srsly, are you gonna teach yourself anything new or are you going to learn from others?) and generally quit pounding our chests?"

Good question. Is "We" a two way street?

In this thread you have described other opinions (as in "respect others opinions") thus:


-Hate
-Bitterness
-trashing
-vengeance
-obsession
-narcissism
-Pounding their chests
-Suspending capitalism
-Filling their yards
-Sparing no expense too ridiculous to make them satisfied
-Grumpy
-Militant Capitalists
-Changing their decoders at the drop of the hat of the perception of what the latest and greatest is based on some arcane attribute
-Nothing but the best for me
-Conspicuous consumption and gotta have the best syndrome
-I bought last year's model and now I feel so inadequate
-Show us who has the big bucks and what our place is


I don't see how those are respecting others, or trying to learn from what the other person has to say.

[Paul Cutler III]

notabob,
No one can make speed steps equal actual speed except for MTH. They did it first and they patented it. They've threatened lawsuits in the past over this, so I don't think you'll ever see that from anyone else in this hobby.

Pre-configured scale speed tables won't work. Engines from the very same run can vary wildly from one another. I have 5 Rapido FL9's, and each one has a different top speed with the slowest and fastest being over 10 smph from each other.

Counting motor revs is the way to do this, but you'd need a sensor on the flywheel to count them. MTH does this and they've designed their engines around it. I can't see this being developed for owner-installed units where many times one can barely see the flywheels, let alone be able to mount a sensor near them.

[riogrande]

I don't really have a dog in this fight so nothing more for me to add.

Cheers.

[notabob]

Mar 2, 2016 17:29:39 GMT -8 Paul Cutler III said:

notabob,
No one can make speed steps equal actual speed except for MTH. They did it first and they patented it. They've threatened lawsuits in the past over this, so I don't think you'll ever see that from anyone else in this hobby.

Pre-configured scale speed tables won't work. Engines from the very same run can vary wildly from one another. I have 5 Rapido FL9's, and each one has a different top speed with the slowest and fastest being over 10 smph from each other.

Counting motor revs is the way to do this, but you'd need a sensor on the flywheel to count them. MTH does this and they've designed their engines around it. I can't see this being developed for owner-installed units where many times one can barely see the flywheels, let alone be able to mount a sensor near them.

Paul,

A company (like MTH) can patent a specific method for matching speed step to scale MPH, but they can't patent a general capability to do so.  That would be too broad of an application.  MTH's patent describes an optical sensor to measure RPMs.  Many decoders (including even today's Tsunami) can sense motor speed electronically using back-EMF.  This gets them around MTH's patent and makes it usable in any installation.  MTH wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

And I was not suggesting pre-configured speed tables.  Speed tables as they exist today are an arcane PITA.  What I was suggesting was a pre-configured RPM-to-scale speed preset for a system described above.  Such a preset would be a single value representing the number of motor revs per set scale distance.  One preset per chassis type.  Realistically, there are probably too many manufacturer/model/chassis/truck gearing combinations to preload as decoder presets.  A database of such values could be community-sourced and maintained, however. 

[atsfan]

Mar 2, 2016 17:29:39 GMT -8 Paul Cutler III said:

notabob,
No one can make speed steps equal actual speed except for MTH. They did it first and they patented it. They've threatened lawsuits in the past over this, so I don't think you'll ever see that from anyone else in this hobby.

Pre-configured scale speed tables won't work. Engines from the very same run can vary wildly from one another. I have 5 Rapido FL9's, and each one has a different top speed with the slowest and fastest being over 10 smph from each other.

Counting motor revs is the way to do this, but you'd need a sensor on the flywheel to count them. MTH does this and they've designed their engines around it. I can't see this being developed for owner-installed units where many times one can barely see the flywheels, let alone be able to mount a sensor near them.

Paul,

Overall you are probably correct.
But, I see the point is DCC companies need to sit down and dream/think of innovative or game changing functionalities.
"Me too" isnt what is really needed now.
Unless someone can come up with much better sound quality instead.
Or cheaper.

On a different thought, I still dont know why MTH hasnt offered their own DCS decoders to use on non MTH engines.
Seems it wouldnt be hard to make and who is actually buying DCS in HO now limited to just MTH.
I asked them in Cleveland about this and their reaction seemed to me they hadnt even thought of it.

Cheers

[Paul Cutler III]

notabob,
Didn't MTH sue BLI for making smoke units that puff in time with the sounds and motion of the wheels? If anyone makes 1 speed step = 1 scale MPH, I think MTH would sue them, too. Not that I think they'll win, but that sort of threat will tend to keep people from investing that kind of time and money into creating it.

atsfan,
The problem is that there isn't that huge paradigm shift like there was going from DC to DCC, or even from Soundless to Sound. The difference between DC and DCC is vast. The difference between Soundless and Sound is significant. The improvements people are talking about here are minor at best. Better sounds, better speed controls, better programming, etc., are improvements to be sure, but are not game changers. Even going to direct radio control like the Ring Engineering system isn't that much of a difference from a standard radio throttle set up from Digitrax or NCE. Want to run your layout with your tablet/smart phone? It can be done now, and people are not changing over en mass. About the only thing that might be left is dead rail technology, but that has it's own problems.

As for why MTH won't offer DCS decoders for sale, it flies in the face of their philosophy: that every engine runs the same, from 0 to 120smph in 1smph increments. They can't do that with an Atlas/Athearn/P2K loco. And remember, these are folks that think proprietary tech. is the way to go. Putting their tech. in someone else's loco is verboten to people like that; hey, that means that someone bought an expensive loco from someone else and not them! Horrors!

[Tom]

Mar 2, 2016 12:40:39 GMT -8 mlehman said:

OK, how about "bitter"? Or "preternaturally obsessed with the supposed failings of other to meet your needs" AKA narcissism? I could go on, but doubt that would be productive. People who seem to hold these attitudes seem to feel there's something to be vengeful about, even though I see it mostly as

Maybe after things become official, they'll find a new pony to trash?

I really think the idea that ST "was not listening and flat-out dismissing what their customers were telling them" for a decade, presumes that much of what available now was available 10 years ago. That's just not the case.

And I think that what will be found on the new decoder will likely demonstrate that ST has in fact been paying close attention to market expectations. They may not do it exactly the way YOU expect, but I'll bet they'll make most users pretty darn happy.

That's a bit over the top. The only thing narcissistic is that comment.

Technology evolves, and yes, ESU, Digitrax, and QSI were all doing this 8 years ago (in 2008, before the Tsunami was released)  which is why it was even brought to the attention on SoundTraxx with the hopes that they too could showcase something along those lines in their subsequent releases.
Like it or not, it was the case. All the messages should still on the Amtrak Modelers Yahoo Group. You are free to search the archives. I know from the ESU side, their decoders changed dramatically over those years, as did QSI: Number of simultaneous sounds, ability to drive speakers of different values, storage capacity, plug type, the list goes on.

As has been said here before, if someone is happy with what they produce, buy it. Competition is good in the marketplace. If people aren't happy, they don't buy it.
Along the lines of competition, has anyone tried a TCS -Wow decoder? Their silent stuff works great, wasn't sure if their sounds stuff was just as good.

[notabob]

Mar 3, 2016 10:54:30 GMT -8 Paul Cutler III said:

notabob,
Didn't MTH sue BLI for making smoke units that puff in time with the sounds and motion of the wheels? If anyone makes 1 speed step = 1 scale MPH, I think MTH would sue them, too. Not that I think they'll win, but that sort of threat will tend to keep people from investing that kind of time and money into creating it.

I doubt they would.  In the case against BLI, MTH claimed that BLI used an electronic method of chuff/puff synchronization, which infringed on MTH's patent.  So it wasn't the action that they were suing about, but the method.  In the case of speed step vs. scale MPH, MTH explicitly patented a mechanical means of RPM detection, whereas back-EMF is a purely electronic method.  So not only would they not win, I don't think they'd even try to sue.

[mlehman]

Mar 3, 2016 11:23:19 GMT -8 Tom said:

SNIPThat's a bit over the top. The only thing narcissistic is that comment.
[/quote} You should check the definition of narcissistic. I don't have a dog in your gripe against Soudntraxx, I was just noting it doesn't fit with my experience, that of many other I know, and with actually making much sense. You seem to have had one bad interaction and turned that into some sort of systemic malaise at Soundtraxx. I only met Nancy once briefly years ago at the 2000 National Narrow Gauge Convention. Sounded like great stuff if they could get it to market...and it took awhile, but was well worth the wait.

Mar 3, 2016 11:23:19 GMT -8 Tom said:

Technology evolves, and yes, ESU, Digitrax, and QSI were all doing this 8 years ago (in 2008, before the Tsunami was released)  which is why it was even brought to the attention on SoundTraxx with the hopes that they too could showcase something along those lines in their subsequent releases.
Like it or not, it was the case. All the messages should still on the Amtrak Modelers Yahoo Group. You are free to search the archives. I know from the ESU side, their decoders changed dramatically over those years, as did QSI: Number of simultaneous sounds, ability to drive speakers of different values, storage capacity, plug type, the list goes on. [/quote}

Guess you're talking about recordable content on the decoder, because from what I heard the Tsunami was generally considered a very competitive if not superior decoder to those (esp. the Digitrax)?

Not even sure why that's such a big deal. I install a decoder and it's where it is. That's what most people do. Sure, it could be handy to be able to swap and reflash it with updated sounds, but not really something I or many other need.

But it's also something that the basic architecture of the Tsunami wouldn't support, which may be why you got the reaction you did (and anyone can have a bad morning, it shouldn't reflect on their life's work, as you seem to feel). Of course, if your tone in that conversation was the same imperious one ("I know your busines better than you do...") you used here, I can see you getting the reaction you did from someone who built their business from the ground up...and knew you didn't really understand what you were talking about. Why?

An example is found on the new Econami, the function-activated cylinder cocks sound effect. A colleague REALLY wanted that on the Tsunami and actually went to the effort of trying to understand why that wasn't possible. The Tsunami's memory and processing were such that to do that something else would have to go. He thought Fireman Fred could be laid off to make room, but that just didn't fly at ST. They were just at the limits of what could be done with that chip architecture.

I don't know about other mfgs, but as I noted earlier ST does all that inhouse. Sure, they could've offshored production and laid a bunch of folks off in Durango. But their business model is to do it inhouse, in the USA and on their own fab line. To change that takes planning and investment. I suspect one reason you see a "new" model every year from other producers is because they mostly contract out that production (and can take advantage of the improvements funded from outside our hobby that support the contractors who specialize in that.) But the model RR market just isn't big enough to support an update to production equipment on a yearly basis. It takes longer to make the considerable investment required. And of course there were two major global market dislocations over that period, which didn't help.

So, no, you don't get something "entirely new" out of ST every year for that reason. It takes longer, probably longer than they planned in even their own worst case assumptions. And why would they need to do that? Because they needed a new line before that could start adding things like cylinder cocks. Your idea that they somehow could've just added recordable content capability at the drop of a hat was completely implausible, to say the least. You may have wanted it, but the fab line they had then couldn't do it it.

Yet, in the end, it will get done, in Durango, and I'm sure in fine form. ST knows what it's doing and also what it takes to survive while doing so. Narrowgauge has been mentioned at least once in this discussion as something that was felt to be a distraction. I suspect profits from Blackstone have been plowed back into the ST side of things, as the margin is most likely higher on RTR than on building decoders. So if you or others I've heard mention NG disparagingly as the reason why you haven't got what you want, you're probably mistaken. NG is probably the reason why there will be improvements that will get funded at Soundtraxx.

As far as I can tell, ST is doing exactly what it needs to do to stay independent and still be supporting its past, present and future customer needs. No, you don;t get the latest and greatest every year, because they do things the old-fashioned way, in house and supported by long-term investments they make. When there is an update, yeah, there's a lot of catching up to do, but that's OK with those who see patience as a virtue, instead of holding you back from what YOU think is important.

Mar 3, 2016 11:23:19 GMT -8 Tom said:

As has been said here before, if someone is happy with what they produce, buy it. Competition is good in the marketplace. If people aren't happy, they don't buy it.
Along the lines of competition, has anyone tried a TCS -Wow decoder? Their silent stuff works great, wasn't sure if their sounds stuff was just as good.

I think if you look at the market, while the long in tooth Tsunami needs replacement, ST still sells a bunch of decoders and pleases most of them. Maybe you think we're all fools, but I think we get good value in a product that meets our needs. Yep, the Wow is said to be very stiff competition to ST in terms of sound and options among the steam-focused crowd, as well as motor control. What next from ST will make choosing it over TCS much more difficult than it currently is, where Wow is very well-received.

[kentuckysouthernrwy]

Mar 5, 2016 7:42:27 GMT -8 mlehman said:

Mar 3, 2016 11:23:19 GMT -8 Tom said:

SNIPThat's a bit over the top. The only thing narcissistic is that comment.
[/quote} You should check the definition of narcissistic. I don't have a dog in your gripe against Soudntraxx, I was just noting it doesn't fit with my experience, that of many other I know, and with actually making much sense. You seem to have had one bad interaction and turned that into some sort of systemic malaise at Soundtraxx. I only met Nancy once briefly years ago at the 2000 National Narrow Gauge Convention. Sounded like great stuff if they could get it to market...and it took awhile, but was well worth the wait.

FYI I just this afternoon heard a WOW steam decoder in a brass engine. It sounded fine until the whistle was sounded and there was a simultaneous scrunching of faces and shaking of heads at the popcorn fart sound it made.

One of those present had recently seen and heard the prototype ScaleTrains.com turbine go through it's paces and was truly wowed.

[mlehman]

Karl,
As with complaints about the horns on a Tsunami, the first thing I'd be curious about would be the equalizer and individual function volume settings. Got no Wow experience yet, but do know several of the beta testers. IIRC, unlike the Tsunami's overall global equalizer, the Wow allows equalization of specific effects? If the installer didn't alter such settings, the defaults can be rather plain Jane, even more ugly Betty, and to get the best of of them requires some tuning of CV settings.

Then there's the issue of what was the prototype horn like? There were a surprisingly large number of rather unmusical sounding horns out there, as I noted about some of the Rio Grande narrowgauge whistles on the Tsunami. If it's one of those, sometimes you'll be more happy with the non-prototypical horn or whistle options, even if they don't exactly match in real life. YMMV

Should a sound decoder default to what's used on a specific engine? Nowadays, when it's a factory install on that engine, you'd hope that was the case since it's now possible, but I suspect it's often not. Until the resources in the user manual are exhausted, I wouldn't start by condemning the decoder on such issues, because you're almost always not stuck with how it is when unboxed.

[12bridge]

As a horn collector, and having just about everything represented sitting under the layout, I wont argue, almost no two horns are the same. But, Tsunami recordings are TERRIBLE, they are outdated, and just bad. A few are OK, but most are bad. Lok horns are much better, they still don't have everything, and some are not the greatest, but far better then Soundtraxx's. They pretty much have stated they have no interest in doing any new recordings either at the shows. To me, as a collector, having a correct horn, and a decent prime mover, trumps all other sound functions and doo-dads for me. And for now, Loksound is the answer.