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Post by riogrande on Mar 30, 2016 4:11:44 GMT -8
I am nearing the point where I will need to start putting down a coat of plaster or hydrocal over my plaster gauze scenery base. Being a noob, I don't really have a good knowledge of plaster products and what would be appropriate to put down over the plaster gauze and secondly where I can get plaster products, especially for economical prices. In some cases would like to be able to carve the plaster too, although much of the form will be smooth sandstone. What kinds are out there and where do you typically buy it?
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Post by mlehman on Mar 30, 2016 6:54:41 GMT -8
You should be able to find a big ol' bag of it at the big box building supply. Depending on what brand they carry, it may be the brand name stuff by USG: www.plaster.com/HYDROCAL.htmlI've seen generic versions called "floor leveler" but make sure it's a plaster-like product, as there are others. Another brand name I've seen used is "Fixall." Basically, it's a high-strength plaster product, so something plastery described similarly may be a suitable substitute. It's cheap enough, but don't get more than you'll likely use in the next year or so as exposure to humid air will cause issues in the long run. |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 30, 2016 9:10:54 GMT -8
By "big box" do you mean Home Depot or Lowes? I have some hydrocal I stored in a sealed coffee can for years I'm expecting it to be no good after all this time which is why I'm planning on a fresh bag. I'm only going to need enough to cover one side of my layout, roughly a 2x18 foot area. How much would be required for that? What about "Hydrocal vs. other types of plaster? FWIW, I also bought a couple bags of Sculptamold to use too but I want to put on a thin layer of plaster to cover the gauze first, which is slightly porous.
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Post by Christian on Mar 30, 2016 11:11:17 GMT -8
There's always plaster.com - right from the source. BUT, shipping is about three times the plaster cost. I've not looked in NoVA, but in other lifetimes I have found it at both roofing supply wholesalers and at ceramics supply dealers. I'm done with plaster. Fortunately I'm modeling Western Illinois which only requires a well sanded sheet of ply and an occasional telephone pole!  |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 30, 2016 12:27:37 GMT -8
 There's always plaster.com - right from the source. BUT, shipping is about three times the plaster cost. I've not looked in NoVA, but in other lifetimes I have found it at both roofing supply wholesalers and at ceramics supply dealers. I'm done with plaster. Fortunately I'm modeling Western Illinois which only requires a well sanded sheet of ply and an occasional telephone pole! Joe Fugate commented on MRH forums that Lowes has ordinary Plaster of Paris. A quick online search seems to confirm they have it. Christian, are you building a RR now? Western Illinois would have lots of tree's wouldn't it? I'm modeling eastern Utah where it was more desert like and mostly some sage and scrub brush which I'm planning on making from paint stripping pads per Rob Spangler's method. Tree's, not very many.
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Post by mlehman on Mar 30, 2016 12:33:05 GMT -8
By "big box" do you mean Home Depot or Lowes? Could be. We have them and Menard's in the Midwest. Any that carry USG (a big outfit) should have it or can get it. Shipping is a killer, as has been noted, so you want a local supply. I have some hydrocal I stored in a sealed coffee can for years I'm expecting it to be no good after all this time which is why I'm planning on a fresh bag. I'm only going to need enough to cover one side of my layout, roughly a 2x18 foot area. How much would be required for that? It may still be good, but the stuff is cheap enough I'd just go with fresh. The 18 lb size seems about right based on the size of your layout, but the 7 lb should cover your immediate needs. I kind of doubt if a coffee can will be enough. What about "Hydrocal vs. other types of plaster? Here's the deal. Hydrocal is a high-strength plaster, so resists chipping. There are alternatives. Plaster of Paris is lower strength and chips more easily. That's the two basic types, so if you can sort things out by the description that USG gives for Hydrocal, you've probably found a good product. FWIW, I also bought a couple bags of Sculptamold to use too but I want to put on a thin layer of plaster to cover the gauze first, which is slightly porous. If it were me, I'd skip the plaster entirely. It's gonna tend to go through the gauze more easily than Sculptamold will, because when mixed right plaster will tend towards soupy. I'd go ahead and just cover the gauze with a thin layer of Sculptamold. It's much less sensitive to exact mixing ratios. Mix it so it's wet enough to spread easily and it should work. This would actually tend towards the wetter side of the ratio, but won't be soupy like plaster. There will be a little more spreading action required vs just pouring the plaster, but way less mess I suspect. If you've not used Sculptamold before, start out on the dry side of the ratio, mix, then add more water and mix some more if not spreadable enough. Unlike plaster, it's very forgiving of doing that -- or just adding a little more dry in to make it less wet if you get it too wet. Don't mix too much at first, or it tends to stiffen as you get towards the end of the batch. Leave some extra room where you want rocks, which are well done by Hydrocal if you want that. Once the first layer of Sculptamold is dry, you can slap some of it on the back of the casting, then press it down at the right location. Sculptamold can then be used to "dirt in" the rock casting. Keep in mind the one drawback to using it vs any form of plaster in that Sculptamold takes up stains, etc differently than plaster does. I didn't know that and it caused some minor grief the first time around when I got to that step, but it's easy to keep in mind what's rock and what's not once you know this. Also, once you've done some experimenting, Sculptamold can be used to depict lots of different rocks. Hydrocal cast rocks will be finer and nicer, but sometimes you just need lots of generic "rock" and Sculptamold works well with the right finishing, texturing, and coloring. |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 30, 2016 13:00:09 GMT -8
Thanks for the tips. Sculptamold might be a lot more pricy to use to cover the 2x18 section of layout, and the gauze isn't "that" porous - I can imagine if the plaster has a bit of viscosity it would cover and not leak through. But I'll try a small area before going crazy. Joe Fugate commented that Hydrocal was too brittle for him; and I've always read it was mainly used in rock molds. I'm may do a little of that but I'm not doing mid-western scenery where you have some rock outcrops you can slap on the side of a hill so it's peaking out from the greenery. I'm after sandstone and scree so much of the rock face will be smooth sandstone, something really different from the Midwestern type of rock outcrop.
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Post by mlehman on Mar 30, 2016 13:26:33 GMT -8
Yeah, I suspected that's what scenery you had in mind, based on "the lay of the plaster cloth..."  If I were doing it. It would be rock casting in Hydrocal (or whatever plaster) for the top rocks, then the long scree slopes would be Sculptamold. Easy way to take advantage of the properties of both. Not sure what Joe F. means about brittle. Hydrocal is pretty tough stuff. I had to use a hammer and a punch to break the tops off a couple of Hydrocal castings just a few days ago to nestle in the big boarding house/company store I'm building across from the Sunnyside right now.  Really had to smack them, too. Guess after 20 years they're still tough enough for me. However, if you pouring it thin as a scenic base, yeah, that might be more subject to breaking as it will when thin. Sculptamold can be had much cheaper if you buy the big bag, although it can seem pricey in small quantities. Dick Blick has the 50 lb bag for $87.21, plus shipping. That goes a long, long way and the stuff keeps well unlike plaster doesn't sometimes. www.dickblick.com/products/amaco-sculptamold/I'd bet that's the only bag you'd need based on your layout's size, maybe more (maybe you really only need a 25 lb?  ) I used 3 x 50 lb for the bulk of my layout, but there's probably about 250 lb total in it. Now I just get the 3 pounder every once in awhile. It's $8.60 at the local art store. |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 30, 2016 14:15:15 GMT -8
Here, I'll copy/paste Joes recommendations from to my queries:
I did search Lowes and HD and I didn't see any 50 lb bags for $12 so things may have changed - it was more like $15 for 25 pounds but that's not too bad.
There were some other options in the topic as well to consider.
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Post by mlehman on Mar 30, 2016 14:37:51 GMT -8
Plaster's big advantage is that it's cheap. If you're comfortable working with it, it can go a long way. The only question then becomes, "How long is the learning curve?" Because there's a lot of messiness to plaster. I don't mind that when filling rock molds, but some prior experience with it on the layout itself was decidedly a mixed bag. Once I tried Sculptamold, its easy to control nature and easy to use versatility had me sold once I found the 50 lb bag was a deal.
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Post by riogrande on Mar 30, 2016 17:47:39 GMT -8
Once I tried Sculptamold, its easy to control nature and easy to use versatility had me sold once I found the 50 lb bag was a deal. You could find Sculptamold in 50 lb bags? Looked around here and the best I could do was find 3 lb bags of it on sale for $6 each. Compare that to even plaster at 25 lbs for $15 and it's more than four times the cost. Some other suggestions to cover plaster gauze on MRH were Celluclay and Durhams Water Putty. Lots of options. |
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Post by mlehman on Mar 30, 2016 22:16:36 GMT -8
You could find Sculptamold in 50 lb bags? Yeah, the Dick Blick link I posted earlier takes you right to 50 lb bags (and other sizes). I used to get it from Walthers through the hobby shop I was using back then (RIP). Current list price at Walthers is $102. |
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Post by Chet on Mar 31, 2016 12:11:47 GMT -8
I myself love hydrocal, but it can be hard to locate. I live in Montana and with no large cities around, it did take a bit of searching, but I did find some. After numerous searches, I got a hold of a building supply company. Most places such as Lowes and Home Depot didn't have a clue what hydrocal was. I picked up a couple of 50# sacks that they brought in for me from a majpr supplier of theirs. I got this years and years ago so I won't bother telling you the price, but I would try a good builders supply company.
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Post by Christian on Apr 2, 2016 10:22:25 GMT -8
Christian, are you building a RR now? Western Illinois would have lots of tree's wouldn't it? Western Illinois put the prairie in Prairie State. Vast black topsoil with grass and shrubs. Flat, some rolling. But, there are the rivers and glacial moraines and that is where I am modeling. Railroads followed the rivers to get close, then struck off arrow straight to achieve their destination. The vast American Woodlands are east of Illinois. Yes, railroad is on hold once again. Sucks when life intrudes! But it's OK. My wife says that when the railroad is on hold I don't age a bit! |
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Post by riogrande on Apr 2, 2016 12:12:30 GMT -8
I never thought of Illinois as a prairie state having driven back and forth across it any number of times, mainly when I was in college and graduate school, on highway 70 route through KC and St Louis. But east of Denver my brain kind of went numb so you may have one up on me.
My RR has been put on hold a number of times since starting it, but I'm managing if I am deliberate to carve some time out here and there. After no place of a layout for over 15 years, I'm trying to make it intrude on life. =P
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2016 12:49:01 GMT -8
I never thought of Illinois as a prairie state having driven back and forth across it any number of times, mainly when I was in college and graduate school, on highway 70 route through KC and St Louis. But east of Denver my brain kind of went numb so you may have one up on me. My RR has been put on hold a number of times since starting it, but I'm managing if I am deliberate to carve some time out here and there. After no place of a layout for over 15 years, I'm trying to make it intrude on life. =P I've seen some really nice prairie and midwest scenery modeling in the last 10 years. Fer instance Jim Six's Michigan/Ohio layout and Bill Darnaby's fictitious Ohio "Maumee Route". Check out the article in Kalmbach's "Model Railroad Planning 2016". With the growing popularity of narrower shelf-type layouts, the flatness of the prairie is easier to model effectively. This might seem a paradox, but modeling a narrow ROW with a good backdrop is a better way to depict distance and tangent trackage. I've always found the CGW interesting, with the 6+ F unit consists. Small midwestern towns offer lots of switching possibilities in often compact areas (grain elevator, oil distributor, feed & farm supply, team track, small freight depot, circus-style TOFC dock, other small industries... |
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Post by Christian on Apr 3, 2016 5:46:07 GMT -8
I never thought of Illinois as a prairie state having driven back and forth across it any number of times, mainly when I was in college and graduate school, on highway 70 route through KC and St Louis. But east of Denver my brain kind of went numb so you may have one up on me. That highway is one the of north/south dividers. Rather dismal scenery along the interstate, for that matter. South is Little Egypt with coal, oil, lead and remnants of the Ozark Mountains. North is the prairie and miles and miles and even more miles of soy beans and corn. The prairie is broken by the Mississippi to the West The Ohio to the South and the Illinois River down the middle. As well as the smaller Wabash River on the East. Old rivers running in wide (several miles wide and flat,) valleys with steep limestone bluffs. As omaharoad points out this country is well suited to narrow shelf layouts. The Chicago, St. Paul, Minneapolis and Omaha Railway (Omaha Road) was also mighty flat for that matter. As well as the Chicago Great Western. (The Corn Belt.) I vaguely remember lots of dirty red-orange F's on the point of FAST short trains near Des Moines. The bright green and the dark green railroads in the center of Illinois also play in my imagination. Another model railroad on point from the old Atlas Forum is Joe Atkinson's IAIS set in 2005. Now often seen on Trainorders. There are other flatland railroad models showing up all the time. The availability of top notch models of every grain hopper car ever built certainly helps with this modeling. (Well, there might be one of two yet to be offered.) It's been 48 years since I've spent a night back home. But, you can see, I'm still excited by flat black soil and the part railroads played in life on the prairie. And, by the way, I'm just as excited by tow boats and barges. |
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Post by riogrande on Apr 3, 2016 6:26:09 GMT -8
Joe Atkinson's is a talented modeler and I enjoy his modeling and layout photo's. Great to be passionate about your modeling! I have similar feelings about desert modeling from my trips trough Colorado and Utah - I just drank up the scenery during those trips.
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) I used 3 x 50 lb for the bulk of my layout, but there's probably about 250 lb total in it. Now I just get the 3 pounder every once in awhile. It's $8.60 at the local art store.
