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Post by carrman on Jun 2, 2016 21:33:34 GMT -8
Amazingly enough, ESU seems to be able to ferret out running examples of locomotives from which to take recordings. Witness the forthcoming FA-2 with recent Alco 244 prime mover recordings. You can reengineer mediocre sounds all you wish, they will still be mediocre. You seem to forget the fact that ESU offers different recordings that vary between 12, 16, and 20 cylinder versions of the 645 for example, or between 12 and 16 cylinder versions of the 251. I don't see Soundtraxx doing that. And for your information, I have a couple dozen sound equipped locomotives; big Alcos, GE's, turbo 567's and 645's, non-turbo 645's, dual motor GE's, and until the superior sounding ESU decoders came along, I was content with the sound from Soundtraxx. Then I found something BETTER. Soundtraxx may be fine for narrow gauge tea kettles, and they do have the superior cab forward decoder compared to ESU, but ESU's diesel sounds eclipse Soundtraxx.
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2016 5:45:38 GMT -8
Amazingly enough, ESU seems to be able to ferret out running examples of locomotives from which to take recordings. Witness the forthcoming FA-2 with recent Alco 244 prime mover recordings. You can reengineer mediocre sounds all you wish, they will still be mediocre. You seem to forget the fact that ESU offers different recordings that vary between 12, 16, and 20 cylinder versions of the 645 for example, or between 12 and 16 cylinder versions of the 251. I don't see Soundtraxx doing that. And for your information, I have a couple dozen sound equipped locomotives; big Alcos, GE's, turbo 567's and 645's, non-turbo 645's, dual motor GE's, and until the superior sounding ESU decoders came along, I was content with the sound from Soundtraxx. Then I found something BETTER. Soundtraxx may be fine for narrow gauge tea kettles, and they do have the superior cab forward decoder compared to ESU, but ESU's diesel sounds eclipse Soundtraxx. Dave Dave, keep in mind that the 244 Prime Mover was found by Rapido, and I believe is a Rapido exclusive (We'll see) that just so happens to be put on an ESU decoder. |
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Post by Mark R. on Jun 3, 2016 19:34:56 GMT -8
Matt's response (on another forum) was that they are not going to replicate the DDE that Soundtraxx is using as it doesn't give as much freedom over control as the new Full Throttle from ESU. While the Soundtraxx method does increase the engine rpm based on load feedback through the BEMF, you are still at the mercy of whatever notch the DECODER decides to be in based on the feedback setting of the BEMF reading.
With the Full Throttle feature, YOU have full control over which notch you want to be in at any given time - not what the decoder decides. Want to be in notch 7 at 4 mph ? - notch 2 at 40 mph ? - or coasting in idle at 20 mph ? .... no problem.
With the way Soundtraxx elected to do it, based on the BEMF load, the engine notches up to 5 (as an example) as it starts to pull that heavy train .... but you want it in notch 8 ! Sorry - the decoder has decided the load will be notch 5, you're not pulling hard enough for notch 8. Not much freedom there.
Mark.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2016 20:52:20 GMT -8
Matt's response (on another forum) was that they are not going to replicate the DDE that Soundtraxx is using as it doesn't give as much freedom over control as the new Full Throttle from ESU. While the Soundtraxx method does increase the engine rpm based on load feedback through the BEMF, you are still at the mercy of whatever notch the DECODER decides to be in based on the feedback setting of the BEMF reading. With the Full Throttle feature, YOU have full control over which notch you want to be in at any given time - not what the decoder decides. Want to be in notch 7 at 4 mph ? - notch 2 at 40 mph ? - or coasting in idle at 20 mph ? .... no problem. With the way Soundtraxx elected to do it, based on the BEMF load, the engine notches up to 5 (as an example) as it starts to pull that heavy train .... but you want it in notch 8 ! Sorry - the decoder has decided the load will be notch 5, you're not pulling hard enough for notch 8. Not much freedom there. Mark. Having the decoder decide what throttle setting (notch) the loco is in is completely unrealistic. LokSound ESU's method is much better. |
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Post by notabob on Jun 4, 2016 4:56:40 GMT -8
Matt's response (on another forum) was that they are not going to replicate the DDE that Soundtraxx is using as it doesn't give as much freedom over control as the new Full Throttle from ESU. While the Soundtraxx method does increase the engine rpm based on load feedback through the BEMF, you are still at the mercy of whatever notch the DECODER decides to be in based on the feedback setting of the BEMF reading. With the Full Throttle feature, YOU have full control over which notch you want to be in at any given time - not what the decoder decides. Want to be in notch 7 at 4 mph ? - notch 2 at 40 mph ? - or coasting in idle at 20 mph ? .... no problem. With the way Soundtraxx elected to do it, based on the BEMF load, the engine notches up to 5 (as an example) as it starts to pull that heavy train .... but you want it in notch 8 ! Sorry - the decoder has decided the load will be notch 5, you're not pulling hard enough for notch 8. Not much freedom there. Mark. Having the decoder decide what throttle setting (notch) the loco is in is completely unrealistic. LokSound ESU's method is much better. And how realistic is it when we forget to manually notch up the sound at the bottom of a hill as we start up the next one, still in idle, yet the train magically maintains its speed up the 2% grade? To be fair, I can see uses for both approaches, and would want to have an option for both automatic load-based notching (a-la DDE) as well as manual (FT) in my ESUs. FT manual notching is great for operations, and gives an actively engaged user more control over the sound reproduction, but it does require that the operator be keenly aware of every hill along the way and adjust sound accordingly. But there are also times when I want to be lazy or when the trains are on autopilot or close to that during a show or open house, and automatic notch changes would be most welcome. |
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Post by mlehman on Jun 4, 2016 7:27:50 GMT -8
Matt's response (on another forum) was that they are not going to replicate the DDE that Soundtraxx is using as it doesn't give as much freedom over control as the new Full Throttle from ESU. While the Soundtraxx method does increase the engine rpm based on load feedback through the BEMF, you are still at the mercy of whatever notch the DECODER decides to be in based on the feedback setting of the BEMF reading. With the Full Throttle feature, YOU have full control over which notch you want to be in at any given time - not what the decoder decides. Want to be in notch 7 at 4 mph ? - notch 2 at 40 mph ? - or coasting in idle at 20 mph ? .... no problem. With the way Soundtraxx elected to do it, based on the BEMF load, the engine notches up to 5 (as an example) as it starts to pull that heavy train .... but you want it in notch 8 ! Sorry - the decoder has decided the load will be notch 5, you're not pulling hard enough for notch 8. Not much freedom there. Mark. I haven't tried the DDE on the new diesel Tsu2, but I rather doubt it does anything automatically that you can't alter the parameters of, just as it is with steam. In fact, a quick look at the Tech Ref shows there are 8 CVs used to shape the DDE response. If you just get to notch 5 with it, then it's a matter of going back to the CVs for further adjustment. Personally, I'd much rather have the loco react to my speed inputs at the throttle than make it another control to fiddle with. There's no separate "make noise" control on the real thing. As for ESU not duplicating DDE, that might just be a matter of patent law (I dunno, I'm not a lawyer...) as much as its preference for manual control. There are different ways to skin that cat, so maybe ESU will eventually come up with a similar feature? |
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Post by Mark R. on Jun 4, 2016 7:43:06 GMT -8
In all honesty, neither type is going to be ideal for all occasions. Matt has also said that the FT was designed with operations in mind - for the type of operators that prefer a full "hands on" approach, where you do need to pay attention to your loads and grades and adjust accordingly. And that's great for those you prefer this. Soundtraxx went with a different approach that will obviously appeal more to those who just like to run their trains and let the decoder make those proto-typical changes for them without having to worry about them. Nothing wrong with either approach. Not everyone "runs trains" the same way. Like a full hands on experience ? - buy Loksound. Prefer the engine to make the changes itself ? - buy Soundtraxx. Hell, buy some of each for whatever type of operations you feel like or the type of company you let run your trains. You don't have to have just one brand of decoder.  Mark. |
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Post by Mark R. on Jun 4, 2016 7:53:09 GMT -8
Matt's response (on another forum) was that they are not going to replicate the DDE that Soundtraxx is using as it doesn't give as much freedom over control as the new Full Throttle from ESU. While the Soundtraxx method does increase the engine rpm based on load feedback through the BEMF, you are still at the mercy of whatever notch the DECODER decides to be in based on the feedback setting of the BEMF reading. With the Full Throttle feature, YOU have full control over which notch you want to be in at any given time - not what the decoder decides. Want to be in notch 7 at 4 mph ? - notch 2 at 40 mph ? - or coasting in idle at 20 mph ? .... no problem. With the way Soundtraxx elected to do it, based on the BEMF load, the engine notches up to 5 (as an example) as it starts to pull that heavy train .... but you want it in notch 8 ! Sorry - the decoder has decided the load will be notch 5, you're not pulling hard enough for notch 8. Not much freedom there. Mark. I haven't tried the DDE on the new diesel Tsu2, but I rather doubt it does anything automatically that you can't alter the parameters of, just as it is with steam. In fact, a quick look at the Tech Ref shows there are 8 CVs used to shape the DDE response. If you just get to notch 5 with it, then it's a matter of going back to the CVs for further adjustment. Personally, I'd much rather have the loco react to my speed inputs at the throttle than make it another control to fiddle with. There's no separate "make noise" control on the real thing. As for ESU not duplicating DDE, that might just be a matter of patent law (I dunno, I'm not a lawyer...) as much as its preference for manual control. There are different ways to skin that cat, so maybe ESU will eventually come up with a similar feature? Have you tried the new Loksound FT ? There are no additional controls "to fiddle with". You turn Drive Lock on (ok, so you have to push a function button - sorry) and now your engine will continue at that same speed while your throttle knob has infinite control of the prime mover sound. Crank the throttle up to notch 8 and your engine is still crawling along at a slow pace. Turn Drive Lock off and your engine will increase speed to match where the throttle is currently set. Turn DL back on at any point before it reaches the throttle setting and it will again hold at that speed. Now turn your throttle knob off and the prime mover drops to idle while the engine is still rolling (coasting). Turn DL off now and the engine will decelerate to the throttle position. Once you get the hang of using the DL button and the throttle knob, you literally have an infinite combination of movement speed and throttle notching .... no CVs to change either. Mark. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2016 19:58:49 GMT -8
Having the decoder decide what throttle setting (notch) the loco is in is completely unrealistic. LokSound ESU's method is much better. And how realistic is it when we forget to manually notch up the sound at the bottom of a hill as we start up the next one, still in idle, yet the train magically maintains its speed up the 2% grade? To be fair, I can see uses for both approaches, and would want to have an option for both automatic load-based notching (a-la DDE) as well as manual (FT) in my ESUs. FT manual notching is great for operations, and gives an actively engaged user more control over the sound reproduction, but it does require that the operator be keenly aware of every hill along the way and adjust sound accordingly. But there are also times when I want to be lazy or when the trains are on autopilot or close to that during a show or open house, and automatic notch changes would be most welcome. "it does require that the operator be keenly aware of every hill along the way..." Sort of like a, real engineer? : ) But yeah, I also get your point of lazy / autopilot. No problem with that. I can't see why today's decoders can't have both modes. |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 2, 2016 19:46:02 GMT -8
Hi Jim, I posted comments over on General Discussion regarding the "Tsu-2" on the upcoming Athearn SDP40F. I'm hoping that you'll be able to demo a Tsu-2 equipped version, produce a video, and provide your usual straightforward and unbiased review. Although I lean towards LokSound's V4.0, I'm curious about this new decoder; especially about its motor control and the quality of the sounds. Seems like a lot of new cool effects. I can't tell if the sound quality is upgraded though. Thoughts? |
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Post by rockisland652 on Jul 7, 2016 13:14:53 GMT -8
I have ordered an EMD Tsu2. Will review completely when installed.
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