el

[bcrn]

jogged curiosity,,,, was the el big on tofc, and if so why couldnt it work for them?

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

Jun 9, 2016 21:07:27 GMT -8 bcrn said:

jogged curiosity,,,, was the el big on tofc, and if so why couldnt it work for them?

Erie Lackawanna did run a fair amount of TOFC. The trouble was the EL route was the longest from the east coast to Chicago. Now couple in bankruptcy with deferred maintenance and the extra miles, time sensitive TOFC was a tough sell. 

[riogrande]

Sort of like the RI and the Ford FAST.

[Spikre]

Jimalooey,
the EL route was only about 40 miles longer than the
PC/PRR route,which was the most direct route from Chitown
to NYC.it was slightly longer than the PC/NYC routes,but PC
screwed up the River Line by removing the signals,which
may have been started by NYC.
so the River line was westbound at nite,eastbound dureing
the day,not a way to run Hot Shot intermodals.but most of
the Flexi Van trains ran on the east bank of the Hudson,
that always had signals,but also still had lots of Passenger
trains,especially east of Buffalo.
EL could beat PC delivery times and was picking up more traffic
from shippers giving up on PC rite up to CR Day.
the PC/PRR route also had its share of Time Killing problems,but
at least 1 or 2 Truc trains were given Priority Status to
Kearny NJ,and that Pig Terminal.
notice that C&O/B&O did run at least 1 train a day to either Eport,
or Comminpaw on CNJ,but their times were hardly competitive with EL,
or PC.
N&W tried to get in on this by running trains with LV,the Appollos,
but they weren't that time competive either.
EL did have the bulk of UPS traffic from Chi-Town by CR Day,and UPS
Paid EL as soon as the trains were dispatched,a good deal for Both.
Spikre

[Paul Cutler III]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the 1972 Hurricane Agnes and the 1973 Oil Embargo that forced the EL into CR?

[Amboy Secondary]

Jun 10, 2016 15:30:34 GMT -8 Paul Cutler III said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it the 1972 Hurricane Agnes and the 1973 Oil Embargo that forced the EL into CR?

Hurricane Agnes, drove the EL (and the Reading), into bankruptcy. I believe that labor issues drove the EL and Reading both into CR, more than anything else. Otherwise, EL would be part of the N&W (NS)and the Reading, (and CNJ), a part of B&O/C&O (CSX).

As I recall, the 1973 Arab Oil Embargo, created a crush of unexpected business, both carload and TOFC, as truckers had trouble getting sufficient fuel.

[el3672]

FYI...EL's biggest customer was UPS and had very stringent service requirements. Typically
between the years '72 thru '76 they ran three hot shot UPS trains each way between Chicago
and Croxton yard in New Jersey, usually 5 days a week.Two West Bound/advance A-CX-099 & CX-99, East bound would be
second/2-NY-100. Another premier east bound TOFC train out of Chi town to Croxton was
advance/A-NY-100 which carried mostly private carrier vans. Second/2-NY-100 would leave next
and chased advance NY-100 out of Chicago all the way across the EL. Early in the '70's, EL purchased
big six axle EMD SDP-45 & SD45-2 units with 5000 gal fuel tanks especially for the hot UPS trains.
These units can take a train from Chicago to Croxton yard without stopping. As an example,
advance CX-99 would leave Croxton Tues 3am and arrive in Chicago 7:30 am on Wednesday that's
a 28.5 hour trip. A few brief stops along the way would be for a crew change & a 5 minute fuel "top off"
in Marion, Ohio or Salamanca, New York. Further delays could happen with a slow order.

Cheers
Alex

[Spikre]

PaulC-3,
a number of factors put EL into CR,but the main one was
that the USRA wouldn't give EL any funds that they were
entitled to. another big factor was that PC wasn't paying
Pier Diem charges,and that snowballed to the other Bankrupts
not paying either,but after Agnes,EL didn't have to either.
so this came down to President Maxwell panicking after the
Funds were denied,and decideing to join CR,which still didn't
get them the funds.
the USRA was not looking kindly at EL being a CR competitor,
and even less kindly at MARC+EL which Reading was promoting.
USRA didn't want any main compition for what was mainly an
Extended PC after 4/1/76.
the money denied EL made for more mainline Slow Orders,but most
of that track was still equal to or better than many PC lines.
Spikre

PS- has any one seen SD45-2 1700 in the NJ Shared Assets lines ?
seems like they could have given it its original EL number.

[Amboy Secondary]

Back in 1975,or so, I as given the task of escorting a USRA survey team as they checked every parcel of PC owned land, from Perryville, MD to Brill in Southwest Philadelphia. Gave me two days of detached duty and two days of free lunches. These people were serious about selling off the Northeast Corridor, South of ZOO, in Philadelphia, because there was insufficient revenue generated from freight received at Potomac Yard, for PC delivery. The primary route was to be the NYC, with the PRR route as a secondary line, mostly for Southwest traffic and mineral and grain.

Based on this, elimination of the EL, which Conrail did for the most part, and the Reading, which Conrail largely kept, were prime goals of the USRA.

Wasn't the N&W expected to acquire some of the EL? I know the C&O/B&O was expected to take the Reading and portions of the CNJ, while the Southern was supposed to take over the Delmarva operation and Edgemoor Yard, in Wilmington, DE. Both of these schemes were derailed by failure of the acquiring carriers to negotiate a new implementation agreement with the BLE and UTU, among others. Word in Rebel Land was that the N&W/EL fell through for the same reason.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

I was only a teenager when Conrail was formed in 1976, so my memories of the Erie Lackawanna are a bit fuzzy. The foundry my dad worked for in the mid-1970's was a stone's throw from the very busy Griffith Junction in Griffith, Indiana. The thing I remember most was how horrible Broad Street was where it crossed right through the maze of diamonds. But, what I do remember about EL in Indiana is that the track looked pretty good, compared to the Penn Central's Panhandle Route which ran through the far eastern part of my home town. The PC crept along with swaying cars and you never wanted to be blocked by a train on that line for it took forever to clear.

To me, the EL got the shaft in the CR deal. Only the Congress could make a mega merger that even today, would be hard to get past regulators. There was a lot of route miles that needed to be dropped with the formation of Conrail, but the EL mainline was one that should have been somehow preserved. 

P.S. My avatar is of an EL train running through Griffith Junction as it crosses Broad Street in Griffith.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

The EL main at Griffith Junction

[el3672]

Looks like it's still a pretty busy place, Not familiar with Griffith Jct. coming from Orange County New York originally.

Here's what it looks like today. Is the EL main still in this image or is it gone?

Griffith Jct.Ind 2016.pdf (3.27 MB)

[bcrn]

hmmm,, seems to me that long single line haul is what everone says a road needs to be good,, make you wonder what staggers could have done for them too.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

Jun 11, 2016 16:18:35 GMT -8 el3672 said:

Looks like it's still a pretty busy place, Not familiar with Griffith Jct. coming from Orange County New York originally.

Here's what it looks like today. Is the EL main still in this image or is it gone?

Okay using the train as a reference point in the Google Maps shot.


You see a little patch of gravel on the far left and the words "Erie Lackawanna Trail". That is the location of the former EL going towards Chicago. Draw a line from there southeast and that large grassy area is the location of the EL main, C&O connection and a yard for interchange. Up until a few years ago, a stub of the EL main remained and ran a couple of blocks northwest from the junction to an industry. The industry is gone and so is the last little bit of the EL in Griffith. The train in the photo is crossing from the former Grand Trunk Western, now CN, to the former Elgin, Joliet and Eastern, now CN. The curving track on the far left of the shot is a relatively new connection by CN between it's former J and GT mainlines. The curving track on the right of the photo is last mortal remains of the Chesapeake and Ohio mainline which tied into the EL mainline at Griffith. The old C&O line, now CN, goes a mile or so to a chemical plant. From that point the C&O mainline is no more.

The new connection put in by CN is darn close to where the Michigan Central/NYC/PC, Michigan City to Joliet line used to cross Broad Street. Abandoned with the formation of Conrail.

The EJ&E tracks actually take a curve and head northward just out of the photo. Its been about maybe twenty to twenty-five years or more, but at one time the EJ&E line to Michigan City continued on a straight line with the main in the picture.

The GTW depot is preserved along with the tower. There was a time into the late 1960's to maybe the early 1970's where there were four depots(GTW, EJ&E, EL and MC) all clustered by the diamonds, along with the tower.

Getting across those tracks on Broad Street even in the early 70's without being stopped by a train used to be a very rare occurrence.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

Found this diagram of Griffith on a Google search.

[Spikre]

Happy Bill,
the Chessie System was supposed to take EL from about Meadville PA,
and Buffalo east to Croxton Yard.
think they were after the Erie Main,but they could have picked up the
ex-DL&W thru Scranton to the NJ Cut Off also.
BUT,due to a Problem with the Unions,Chessie wanted the EL crews to work
for Peanuts,the deal fell thru during fall 1975.
N&W wanted Nothing to do with either EL or D&H,but they got stuck with
D&H because of NY State keeping pressure on them to run D&H like a real
railroad.
Agnes did let N&W kick EL out of DERECO.
Spikre

[areibel]

I can recommend a good book for anyone interested- "Death of an American Railroad" by Roger Grant. Mr. Grant discusses some of the operating issues (like the PC Maybrook yard) and some other interesting what if's, like a discussion of the EL merging with the Santa Fe (creating the first truly transcontinental railroad, but there wasn't much hope of getting that past the ICC at the time so that died out pretty quickly). It's too bad the Staggers act wasn't ten years earlier, it might have prevented some of that blue paint and can openers.

[bcrn]

just because the up could afford those crew costs, doesnt mean the el could. what storm wiped them out , and how?

[areibel]

Hurricane Agnes in 1972. It battered a large portion of the Southern Tier of New York State, and did huge damage to the EL right of way.

[riogrande]

Interesting that a hurricane caused that much damage so far in-land. I am only an amateur at weather having only taken one meteorology class in college but usually it seems hurricanes gain their energy while over the ocean and then lose their energy fairly as they make land fall. The southern tier of NYS is pretty far inland but that must have been a big one the continued to do a lot of damage long after it had passed deep into the continent.

[stevewagner]

When I came to Massachusetts in the summer of 1968 there was some intermodal service between Chicago and Boston via EL, D&H and B&M. The three railroads pooled power. But though Penn Central's route between Selkirk, NY and Boston has worse grades than the Boston & Maine does from Mechanicville, NY, PC provided substantially faster service and continued to have a big majority of the trailer traffic. When a local model railroad group got a tour of the PC's Beacon Park yard in Boston in the early 1970's I was surprised to learn that there were more westbound piggyback trailer loads than eastbound; a good part of that was seafood.

[stevewagner]

The famous hurricane of 1938 leveled thousands of trees in west central Massachusetts and caused major flooding. About two or three years ago another big storm caused tremendous damage in western Massachusetts (closing Route 2 over the Berkshires, a.k.a. the Mohawk Trail) and even Vermont (destroying some covered bridges).

[riogrande]

Massachusetts is more like the Carolina's, borders on the ocean so more vulnerable to hurricanes; that makes more sense. Lower tier of NYS is a good deal further inland but interesting still.

[dti406]

Jun 16, 2016 4:45:18 GMT -8 riogrande said:

Interesting that a hurricane caused that much damage so far in-land. I am only an amateur at weather having only taken one meteorology class in college but usually it seems hurricanes gain their energy while over the ocean and then lose their energy fairly as they make land fall. The southern tier of NYS is pretty far inland but that must have been a big one the continued to do a lot of damage long after it had passed deep into the continent.

The major damage was caused by the 15-19" of rain, as Agnes was just a tropical storm when it went inland by NTC. Many roads and bridges in the Southern Tier have never been rebuilt since the storm. The EL totaled 2 million in damages and the PC totaled 20 million in damages. Trying to cope with these damages eventually led to Conrail.

Rick J

[eh49]

Jun 13, 2016 18:12:58 GMT -8 areibel said:

I can recommend a good book for anyone interested- "Death of an American Railroad" by Roger Grant. Mr. Grant discusses some of the operating issues (like the PC Maybrook yard) and some other interesting what if's, like a discussion of the EL merging with the Santa Fe (creating the first truly transcontinental railroad, but there wasn't much hope of getting that past the ICC at the time so that died out pretty quickly). It's too bad the Staggers act wasn't ten years earlier, it might have prevented some of that blue paint and can openers.

I just ordered a copy of that book from Amzon. Thanks for mentioning it.

[riogrande]

Jun 16, 2016 11:00:58 GMT -8 dti406 said:

The major damage was caused by the 15-19" of rain, as Agnes was just a tropical storm when it went inland by NTC. Many roads and bridges in the Southern Tier have never been rebuilt since the storm. The EL totaled 2 million in damages and the PC totaled 20 million in damages. Trying to cope with these damages eventually led to Conrail.

Rick J

Sounds like a gully washer - rains can remain after the wind has largely died down from the hurricane.

Kind of reminds me of the Western Pacific in the up the Feather River canyon around the time UP took over. They had some terrible washouts that probably WP couldn't have coped with, but UP with deep pockets and lower grade route to California invested quite abit to repair the washouts and lower tunnels. Of course now they have the Donner Pass route under UP after 1996, they have two routes over the Sierra's.

[areibel]

Jun 16, 2016 11:45:12 GMT -8 eh49 said:

It's a good read, I didn't really think much about how the ICC affected railroads when they were in charge.  If you're interested in how railroads could have been check out this link-
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Commerce_Commission
Scroll down to the Ripley plan and see what was proposed in 1920.  It would have made some differences!  The EL never would have been, instead the Erie and DL&W would have become part of the C&O/ Nickel Plate system (so no CSX today), NS wouldn't exist since the N&W would have been merged into the combined Wabash/ SAL, etc.. No "Borg" UP, since SP would stand alone and the Rio Grande would become part of the Mopac- some other interesting combinations and lots to think about!

[bcrn]

didnt the el have any kind of insurance for this? like flood or the like? management couldnt sneeze first, without icc permission, it was crazy.

[bcrn]

anyone have/know of photos of el damage from agnes

[Spikre]

the earlier ICC Consolidation Plan had Erie going to PRR,of course
the Vans didn't pay attention to that and added Erie to their Roads.
not sure where DL&W would have ended up in the ICC Plan,possibly
with NYC ?
Maybrook;
since the bridge fire closed the NH route to NE and Boston,EL
fought PC in Court for another Route to NE,eventually EL won a Route
thru Selkirk,but EL Power generally turned back there.EL Power
did run thru to Boston when PC didn't have enuff "Live Locos",or
PC just stole the EL Power sort of like what Milwaukee was doing
out of Chicago.
"the Death Of the Penn Central" is another must read,as are the books
covering the Van Swerigen's RR Empire and the Holding CO.,the Allegheny
Company.
for some reason most of what has been read about post 1925 C&O sort of
Ignores both the Van Swerigen's and the C&Os role in Allegheney.
Spikre