Does it matter if I buy a turnout that isn't DCC?

[nberpa]

Hi,
I have a question.
If I buy a turnout that isn't DCC ready (Walthers code 83), and my layout is DCC only, will it effect anything? What's the difference between DCC ready and Non DCC ready? Can I convert them to DCC ready?

thanks,
Cody

[steveturner]

Bit of a neat queastion. Most guys look for the most DCC friendly switches out of a box like Peco insulfrog. i think the biggest issue is powered frogs! My buddy accidently got a Peco electrofrog but with a bit of work managed to fix the issue. In your case i would see what makes that switch not so DCC friendly and see if it can be modified easily with out too much surgery. Some switches probably cannot be modified as they might require internal surgery. I am sure somone with Walthers code 83 might chime in, i dont know who makes those. Steve................again i believe its the frog setup that probably causes the issue. Power routing should not be an issue as you feed all legs of switch for DCC.

[calzephyr]

Sept 5, 2012 7:33:51 GMT -8 steveturner said:

Bit of a neat queastion. Most guys look for the most DCC friendly switches out of a box like Peco insulfrog. i think the biggest issue is powered frogs! My buddy accidently got a Peco electrofrog but with a bit of work managed to fix the issue. In your case i would see what makes that switch not so DCC friendly and see if it can be modified easily with out too much surgery. Some switches probably cannot be modified as they might require internal surgery. I am sure somone with Walthers code 83 might chime in, i dont know who makes those. Steve................again i believe its the frog setup that probably causes the issue. Power routing should not be an issue as you feed all legs of switch for DCC.

Any turnout can be used, but you have to insulate the two rails that can be tied together by the frog. After those rails are insulated, you have to provide power to that section and the frog if you use a standard turnout that is not DCC ready.
Larry

[nberpa]

Sept 5, 2012 8:52:35 GMT -8 calzephyr said:

Sept 5, 2012 7:33:51 GMT -8 steveturner said:

Bit of a neat queastion. Most guys look for the most DCC friendly switches out of a box like Peco insulfrog. i think the biggest issue is powered frogs! My buddy accidently got a Peco electrofrog but with a bit of work managed to fix the issue. In your case i would see what makes that switch not so DCC friendly and see if it can be modified easily with out too much surgery. Some switches probably cannot be modified as they might require internal surgery. I am sure somone with Walthers code 83 might chime in, i dont know who makes those. Steve................again i believe its the frog setup that probably causes the issue. Power routing should not be an issue as you feed all legs of switch for DCC.

Any turnout can be used, but you have to insulate the two rails that can be tied together by the frog. After those rails are insulated, you have to provide power to that section and the frog if you use a standard turnout that is not DCC ready.
Larry

So, I take it that it's just easier in the end to buy the DCC ready turnouts?

Thanks,
Cody

[Donnell Wells]

Not necessarily. Either type will work just fine. It's just that with the power-routing turnouts all wheel sets must be in gauge to ensure that when they traverse the point area of the turnout that they don't cause a short. Also, you must gap each rail of the frog "V" in order not to cause a short when hooking up power leads.

This is not required on an "isolated" or "insulated" turnout, as the power is routed around the isolated frog to its respective rail by means of embeded jumpers.

Donnell

[calzephyr]

Sept 5, 2012 9:57:05 GMT -8 nberpa said:

Sept 5, 2012 8:52:35 GMT -8 calzephyr said:

Any turnout can be used, but you have to insulate the two rails that can be tied together by the frog. After those rails are insulated, you have to provide power to that section and the frog if you use a standard turnout that is not DCC ready.
Larry

So, I take it that it's just easier in the end to buy the DCC ready turnouts?

Thanks,
Cody

That is my thought but as Donnell has said, either one can be used but you will have to provide power to the isolated section. That can be done by a micro switch and some switch machines have the extra contacts for the wiring.
Larry

[Paul Cutler III]

A DCC friendly switch is one where the points of the switch are never the opposite polarity of the stock rail it is next to. A non-DCC friendly switch is one where the points of the switch change polarity every time the switch is thrown. It has nothing to do with the frog, which can live or dead with either type.

One can generally tell the difference if you look at the throw bar. If it's metal, that means that the switch is not DCC friendly as the points are always the same polarity to each other, which means they must swap polarity every time the switch throws. If the throw bar is plastic, then it's more than likely a DCC friendly switch and that the open point is either dead or the same polarity of the stock rail on that same side.

This is important for DCC because DCC circuit breakers need to be much, much faster than the old DC days to protect delicate electronics. With DC powerpacks, one could actually "power through" a short. With DCC, it shuts down within 1/2 a second...if not faster. See, the back of a wheel can brush the open point on a switch, resulting in a tiny spark and a breaker trip. This happens with non-DCC friendly switches when one tries to run large engines on #6 or tighter switches. Most large engines have sloppy axles to get around our unprototypical curves, and that slop can allow the backs of wheels to touch open points.

Yes, Walthers Code 83 switches can be converted, but it's not quick nor easy. It involves replacing the throw bar and making some cuts in the rails. If it's a concern, buy the DCC friendly ones if possible. One other method is to paint the inside of the points to prevent shorting, but that does wear away eventually.

[Donnell Wells]

Sept 6, 2012 9:37:43 GMT -8 Paul Cutler III said:

A DCC friendly switch is one where the points of the switch are never the opposite polarity of the stock rail it is next to. A non-DCC friendly switch is one where the points of the switch change polarity every time the switch is thrown. It has nothing to do with the frog, which can live or dead with either type.

One can generally tell the difference if you look at the throw bar. If it's metal, that means that the switch is not DCC friendly as the points are always the same polarity to each other, which means they must swap polarity every time the switch throws. If the throw bar is plastic, then it's more than likely a DCC friendly switch and that the open point is either dead or the same polarity of the stock rail on that same side.

This is important for DCC because DCC circuit breakers need to be much, much faster than the old DC days to protect delicate electronics. With DC powerpacks, one could actually "power through" a short. With DCC, it shuts down within 1/2 a second...if not faster. See, the back of a wheel can brush the open point on a switch, resulting in a tiny spark and a breaker trip. This happens with non-DCC friendly switches when one tries to run large engines on #6 or tighter switches. Most large engines have sloppy axles to get around our unprototypical curves, and that slop can allow the backs of wheels to touch open points.

Yes, Walthers Code 83 switches can be converted, but it's not quick nor easy. It involves replacing the throw bar and making some cuts in the rails. If it's a concern, buy the DCC friendly ones if possible. One other method is to paint the inside of the points to prevent shorting, but that does wear away eventually.

Here's some information concerning DCC and turnouts:

www.wiringfordcc.com/switches.htm

Hi Paul,

I have to disagree with your statement that "it has nothing to do with the frog." It has everything to do with the frog, as the frog is the reason why the polarity of the open point is opposite its adjacent stock rail. The power is basically "back-fed" through the all-metal frog to the open point rail.

The frog was isolated to prevent a short between the stock rail and open point rail in the event of a wheel bridging the gap, as you have explained.

Donnell

[jalajoie]

You are right on target Paul, in addition I will say that at my club which is Digitrax powered since 1999 we also use solely those Walthers/Shinohara non friendly turnouts and we have very few problems. We found from experience that when a problem arise most of the time we can trace it to metal wheels out of gage or as you say too much sideplay in some axles.



To power the frog we use Tam Valley Depot Frog Juicer works very well and easy to install.


www.tamvalleydepot.com/products/dccpowerfrogjuicers.html

[Paul Cutler III]

Donnell,
As long as the frog is isolated from the points, then being DCC friendly is all about the points. I can take a non-DCC Friendly Walthers Code 83 switch and isolate the frog by cutting the closure rails but that's still not a DCC Friendly switch because the points are still soldered together with the metal throw bar and hinge. In that regard, it's only about the points and not the frog.

jalajoie,
What are you using for switch machines, if any? At my club, we're using nothing but Tortoise machines and we just use one of the contacts for frog power. They work great, and in the past 10 years and well over 200-300 applications, we've never had a burned out contact.

[jalajoie]

Paul, with out of reach turnouts, we also use Tortoise and power the frogs with the provided contacts. Since 1999 we had one Tortoise failure within the throwing linkage.

With those turnouts within reach we used since 1999 Red Caboose ground throw equipped with a SPDT to provide power the the frogs. These are a critical install and now they don't provide good contact anymore. These are replaced with Frog Juicer. The Frog Juicer is an easier to install and is an overall better product over the Red Caboose although more expensive.

[Paul Cutler III]

jalajoie,
I figured it was something like that.