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Post by rhpd42002 on Sept 11, 2012 7:11:33 GMT -8
On Sunday evening, I tore down 1 non-sound and 1 sound, Atlas MP-15DC loco to try and determine why they are surging or running as if there's a bind in the mechanism.
I found nothing obvious that would indicate binding. No cracked gears anywhere, no loose flywheels or worm gears. I cleaned out some excess grease/oil, cleaned out the electical pickup bars that the axles stubs roll in. Cleaned the axle ends and light re-greased the gears and put ultra light oil on the stub axle ends that roll in the electrical pickup bars.
Then I test ran them.
The non-sound unit seemed to run a good bit better, but it's very slow speed still showed some shuddering as it moved.
The sound unit had no improvement whatsoever. I have also set the decoder back to factory defaults, even though I haven't changed any CV's, and still no improvement. I plan to try this on the other 2 sound units that are exhibiting the same behavior and HOPE that those show some improvement. If not, I don't know what I can do next, short of finding new, sound equipped locos and swapping out chassis. Kind of an expensive fix, if that's my only option.
Any suggestions from anyone else on what I can do/try?
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 11, 2012 8:32:00 GMT -8
Mike, if you are at the end of your rope with them, you can box them up and send them up here. I can check them over and run them on my system, and I also have the programmer to change the sounds into better ones while they are here.
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Post by rhpd42002 on Sept 11, 2012 8:41:48 GMT -8
Thanks for the offer, Terry. I may take you up on it. I can't quite understand how virtually overnight, they went from nicely running engines to this "surging" motion. It's worse at the higher speed steps but is still noticeable at the slower running/switching speeds.  Very annoying and frustrating. |
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 16, 2012 11:55:25 GMT -8
Mike, I had a problem like this with a Kato motor last week, and it turned out the motor brushes were worn out. I replaced the brushes, and all is well again. With all the miles you've put on these, worn out brushes could be a very real possibility.
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Post by rhpd42002 on Sept 16, 2012 12:22:43 GMT -8
Mike, I had a problem like this with a Kato motor last week, and it turned out the motor brushes were worn out. I replaced the brushes, and all is well again. With all the miles you've put on these, worn out brushes could be a very real possibility. Terry, that could be a very real possibility. I guess I need to order some from Atlas. Did you have much trouble replacing them? I've done that with some Athearn motors, so it's not a totally alien concept to me.  I'm more than willing to give that a try, as I can find nothing else that is "obvious". |
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 16, 2012 14:33:36 GMT -8
It isn't tough. Just take your time. I would pull out a brush and take a look at them.
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 21, 2012 15:03:18 GMT -8
Mike, have you made any progress on the MP15s?
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Post by rhpd42002 on Sept 21, 2012 16:08:45 GMT -8
Sorry, Terry, no, I haven't. I'ts been wide open at work. For a few days, it was just my Capt. and myself, plus having to get to the range and qualify. I've been carrying around the parts diagram in my patrol vehicle, hoping I'd get time to call Atlas and order some motor brushes, if they're even available and replaceable. The exploded view makes it look as if they're not, but until I open one up again, I'm "stuck". My wife, our son Adam and our daughter, Nicole are taking me out for breakfast for my birthday, tomorrow morning and I have 4 guns to clean. Also on call this weekend, so I'm hoping to get to one of them before Monday rolls around.  |
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 21, 2012 16:25:50 GMT -8
Sorry, Terry, no, I haven't. I'ts been wide open at work. For a few days, it was just my Capt. and myself, plus having to get to the range and qualify. I've been carrying around the parts diagram in my patrol vehicle, hoping I'd get time to call Atlas and order some motor brushes, if they're even available and replaceable. The exploded view makes it look as if they're not, but until I open one up again, I'm "stuck". My wife, our son Adam and our daughter, Nicole are taking me out for breakfast for my birthday, tomorrow morning and I have 4 guns to clean. Also on call this weekend, so I'm hoping to get to one of them before Monday rolls around. Available as complete motor and flywheel assembly only. Currently listed as available, for about $25 plus shipping: secure.atlasrr.com/mod1/itemdesc.asp?ic=990100 |
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Post by rhpd42002 on Sept 21, 2012 16:28:43 GMT -8
Sorry, Terry, no, I haven't. I'ts been wide open at work. For a few days, it was just my Capt. and myself, plus having to get to the range and qualify. I've been carrying around the parts diagram in my patrol vehicle, hoping I'd get time to call Atlas and order some motor brushes, if they're even available and replaceable. The exploded view makes it look as if they're not, but until I open one up again, I'm "stuck". My wife, our son Adam and our daughter, Nicole are taking me out for breakfast for my birthday, tomorrow morning and I have 4 guns to clean. Also on call this weekend, so I'm hoping to get to one of them before Monday rolls around. Available as complete motor and flywheel assembly only. Currently listed as available, for about $25 plus shipping: secure.atlasrr.com/mod1/itemdesc.asp?ic=990100Well, that's beats buying a whole loco!! Thanks, for the info, Terry. I guess I'll be ordering at least 4 motors. |
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Post by canrailfan on Sept 23, 2012 13:48:11 GMT -8
Check with Atlas before ordering those motors, they list the following 2 brush/2 spring sets in their e-store repair parts section:
9707101 - $1.50/set Japan locos
9807101 - $2.65/set S2/S4 Austria
9850101 - $3.15/set China U33C/U36C
I think all the China motors have the same motor brush-end cap so it's likely the last number will also fit the MP-15DC motor.
Hope this helps.
David
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 23, 2012 14:50:23 GMT -8
Check with Atlas before ordering those motors, they list the following 2 brush/2 spring sets in their e-store repair parts section: 9707101 - $1.50/set Japan locos 9807101 - $2.65/set S2/S4 Austria 9850101 - $3.15/set China U33C/U36C I think all the China motors have the same motor brush-end cap so it's likely the last number will also fit the MP-15DC motor. Hope this helps. David The motors are smaller in the MP15's. That doesn't mean it isn't worth a shot. He could order a set, and if they don't fit, he's only out about 4 bucks plus postage. |
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Post by rhpd42002 on Sept 24, 2012 9:24:44 GMT -8
David & Terry, I called Atlas this morning and the parts guy said the brushes aren't made/designed to be replaced on the MP-15DC's. He said the motor is expected to last 15 years. He transferred me to Don, but I only got voice mail there. Instead, I sent Don an e-mail, outlining the problem. Hopefully he can give me a fix or just straight up tell me if the motors need to be replaced. I can live with it, should that be the case. (insert Jeopardy theme music here) |
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Post by rhpd42002 on Oct 20, 2012 17:24:47 GMT -8
Okay, guys..... The locos (chassis only) are in the mail, enroute to Atlas. I sent them out yesterday morning, before our trek to the Land of Lincoln. Now I just have to wait to hear what the estimated cost for repair(s) will be. I'm sure they can be fixed, I just don't know what the problem is!! |
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Post by steveturner on Oct 21, 2012 22:40:52 GMT -8
I dont think its a motor issue. i would have done a complete reset and turned the BEMF off to see how that worked. Or tried it on DC if its possible with that model. i would do also a reset of the system. For two to have same issue sounds fishy!!!!. i would also for arguments sake clean the heck out of the wheels and a track section. Check to ensure reset has taken by reading the loco adress which should have been 03. If two are acting up something has corrupted something or a setting has gone haywire either the loco or the command. Good lick.Steve
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Post by rhpd42002 on Oct 22, 2012 13:52:35 GMT -8
Steve, I talked to Don at Atlas and corresponded by e-mail in reference to the issues. I re-set all 3, yes, 3 of 'em before I ever e-mailed Don. I cleaned the wheels and track and still no luck. I agree, that for 2 or more to go "haywire" almost simultaneously, something IS fishy. I just don't know what. I have another sound unit, but it doesn't exhibit the same issues. It dances to it's own beat and has since I bought it. It will lose it's ability to run normally, every now and again, and I may have to re-set it's decoder from between 1 and 3 times before it takes.  I can tell when it happens as soon as I call up it's address. The headlights come on VERY BRIGHTLY and when I throttle up, it moves with a jerky motion. I'm hoping that whatever the problem is with those 3, it can be fixed simply and easily. My 6, non-sound units do not exhibit this behavior, nor do any of my other brands of non-sound/sounds units. I'm stumped, that's why Atlas has 'em. ;D |
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Post by rhpd42002 on Dec 23, 2012 14:53:35 GMT -8
I got the 3 chassis back from Atlas this past Friday. I wasn't charged for any work, even though they are all out of warranty. The repair sheet showed that all 3 were re-set back to factory, default settings, (which is what I've done repeatedly with unsuccessful results) tested and returned. I was hopeful that maybe the Atlas repair shop knew or did something I didn't. I took 'em out back last night for a test run. Loco #1 ran just like it did before I sent it in. It still had the "surging" problem. I know it isn't electrical (dirty wheels/track) as the leights never flickered nor did the motor sounds die down/start up. Loco #2 ran just like #1 did, and is how it was running before I sent it in. I didn't even bother trying #3, as I was thoroughly frustrated by this point. I'm wondering if there is a "loose" driveshaft or worm gear or even axle gear(s) on these locos. 1 I've owned for about 18 months, the other 2 for 2+ years. The only other sound equipped MP-15DC loco I own does have a decoder issue, wherein it will sometimes lose it's factory settings, and I have to re-set it once or up to 3 times to get it to run properly. However, it still runs very smoothly, unlike the other 3 and I've owned it for well over 5 years. I just find it hard to believe that I'm the only one with this issue. Are there ANY suggestions from anyone that I can try before these units become shelf queens and parts sources for the 6, non-sound units I own?  |
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Post by bnsf971 on Dec 23, 2012 16:33:11 GMT -8
I just find it hard to believe that I'm the only one with this issue. Are there ANY suggestions from anyone that I can try before these units become shelf queens and parts sources for the 6, non-sound units I own? we can always do what I suggested, and send one over here. I'm pretty good at finding this kind of stuff, and how to fix it. Even if I can't, all you are out is postage. I can also program it with better sound while it's here, so it'll sound better while it's not running (worst case). |
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Post by rhpd42002 on Dec 23, 2012 18:20:00 GMT -8
Terry, Check your messages.  |
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Post by Mark R. on Dec 24, 2012 11:15:38 GMT -8
Maybe I missed it in the thread, but have you tried turning BEMF off on the decoders (assuming it's even turned on). I just installed a decoder in an older steam engine, and when I first tried running it, it jerked along like there was a real bind in the drive. Turning the BEMF off eliminated the jerking completely. With some playing, I was able to turn the BEMF back on, but fine tune the BEMF parameters to bare minimums and still have excellent motor control.
Mark.
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Post by rhpd42002 on Dec 24, 2012 14:45:57 GMT -8
Thanks for the suggestion, Mark. If I get time in the next day or two, I'll look in the manual for the BEMF CV's. I don't tinker with CV's, as I have no way to read my decoders with my DCC system. I have the Digitrax, Empire Builder and it doesn't support the reading of decoder CV's. Sorta wishing I'd bought the Super Chief or try to find a good, used, OLD STYLE Zephyr. |
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Post by Chase on Dec 26, 2012 14:59:49 GMT -8
I had two Atlas sound equipped C40-8W's that gave me similar fits. They both acted like they had dirty wheels, but they and the axle points had been cleaned again and again. I finally discovered that the axle points that contact the side frame strip must be lubricated with conductive oil or grease. I believe Atlas uses Conductalube, but I used AristoCraft conductive grease as it stays on the points and lasts longer. The difference was amazing and they are now smooth as new units. BTW both the conductive oil or grease are relatively expensive in relation to the amount you will use, about ten dollars for a container of either type.
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Post by rhpd42002 on Dec 26, 2012 17:47:49 GMT -8
Thanks Chase for another good suggestion to try.
I have cleaned the axle ends of one unit, but used a light oil for lube. I guess I need to find some of the lube you mentioned and keep that on hand.
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Post by bnsf971 on Jan 8, 2013 17:04:18 GMT -8
Okay, I have Mike's engines here, and after some pretty thorough testing, I have determined he has three bad motors. Amp readings were all over the charts, and the erratic amp readings coincided with the bad running. Cleaning the commutators and brushes with conduct-a-lube helped a lot, but not enough to make them run smoothly. I pulled a motor out of one of my MP15's, and transplanted it into one of the ailing units. It now purrs around my layout like a brand new locomotive.
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Post by steveturner on Jan 9, 2013 21:54:38 GMT -8
i wonder if motor oil or lube got into these motors or was wicked from bearing into motor. i personally wrecked a motor this way once.Not saying this is the cause here but its easy to wick oil into a can motor. Steve
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Post by bnsf971 on Jan 10, 2013 4:34:07 GMT -8
i wonder if motor oil or lube got into these motors or was wicked from bearing into motor. i personally wrecked a motor this way once.Not saying this is the cause here but its easy to wick oil into a can motor. Steve All three motors were uniformly "dry" when they arrived. I'm not saying there wasn't any oil, but no visible lubricant on the shafts or commutators. About 10-15 years ago, Atlas had an issue with over lubrication from the factory, at least in their N scale locomotives. I can't tell you how many locomotives I've seen marinating in lube oil in their boxes. You know it's bad when oil drips off them when you remove them, and there is a puddle of oil in the box. |
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Post by rhpd42002 on Jan 10, 2013 17:53:41 GMT -8
Thanks for the information, Terry.
At least I know I'm not "crazy"!! ;D
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