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Post by baldclamlocoshop on May 20, 2017 13:00:11 GMT -8
baldclamlocoshop, We New Englanders haven't had any correct passenger train sets in plastic, either. but we are trying. The NHRHTA paid into the tooling to get coaches and parlors from Rapido for the New Haven. Maybe some of the Southern railroad historical groups should invest in some tooling of their own? That's why I'm learning how to 3D print my own cars, finally got tired of WKW and others skipping over us and instead coming out with 987,878 varient of the Super Chief or COLA (not picking on the western guys). A lot of ppl are sick and tired of seeing the same ole' song and dance every single year, its either PRR, UP, or ATSF just because it "sells''! I'll guarantee you if they announced a East Coast Champion, Silver Meteor, or a Crescent that was correct in HO, it would sell out in 2 wks or less. I can also assure you that the ACL-SAL society would be the LAST ppl who would invest in tooling, heck they've had truck loads of documents in the archives for nearly 20 yrs and they have yet to get even 1% of those digitized. Off my soap box now...
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 20, 2017 14:24:21 GMT -8
OK, I'll jump up on that ole box and say:
If ya want somethin' done, ya gotta get in there and do it. I've been offering to do "stuff" for the SP&S HS for years. I don't live in the neighborhood, so I couldn't help with all the old physical records.
But.
I was finally sent photocopies of almost all of the consists of SP&S passenger trains in 1943, and asked to put them in Excel. Did it. Learned a lot. And waiting for the next set of data.
So I recommend getting pushy and insist on helping.
I hereby turn the box over to the next person.......
Ed
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2017 17:02:45 GMT -8
I believe you're talking about Terry Thompson, although I hadn't heard that he wrecked MRR. By my standards, MRR is still doing a fine job wrecking their magazine all on their own. Back on topic, if Walthers is reading this forum, here's what they need to do. And they should listen to be because I have my Masters in armchair model train production and sales. - Amtrak diners and sleepers suitable for the northeast, to put behind the multitude of Amtrak Electrics that are being released this year. Specifically, Viewliners, Viewliner II's, and Budd diners. Amfleet coaches that roll would be nice, too, but I'd accept better wheelsets I can purchase to fit on their latest run
- Rio Grande Prospector
- PRR Broadway Limited (pre-1960 with skirts)
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Post by Amboy Secondary on May 20, 2017 17:04:54 GMT -8
Just a few weeks ago, word on the street and in the forums was that Walthers was exiting the proto passenger train business. Now, they announce another Eastern, (Appalachian), passenger train with some new and some existing tooling, and there is much negative commentary. Lets face it, the George Washington, was not a fast train, nor a big moneymaker. What the George did, was link Tidewater, VA, and Metro DC with the Midwest, while serving all the Appalachian communities in between. Walther's offering is accurate replica of the prototype for the mid 1960s. If this train doesn't sell, neither will the Phoebe Snow, LV Maple leaf, Erie Lake Cities, nor the Frisco Meteor, Silver Meteor et all. Even with a larger following, the B&O Capital Limited did not sell as well as I anticipated.
Paul Cutler is right, those beautiful Rapido NH cars would never have been offered without the NH Historical Society stepping up and taking the risk of financing the tooling. Now I have a few in PC to run behind my PC FL9. Walthers is putting their capital at risk with these projects, obviously, with mixed results.
Southeastern Modelers, although vocal, are reluctant to support products offered in their favorite road names, for some reason. I recently had this related to me by someone connected to a major supplier. No one is going to commit funding for a project, with little likelihood of success.
If I buy this set, and I'm not sure I will, it will be as a collector, because my modeling interest is in an Urban Industrial railroad operation. Any passenger operation would be using cars supplied by Bethlehem car Works (RDG) or ConCor (PRR MP54), pulled by road switchers.
Just a thought
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 20, 2017 17:26:02 GMT -8
This train is short-ish (as in "affordable" and layout-fitting-ish). Ah mean, I've got a full Empire Builder, and it's about 20' long. Do YOU have 20' sidings? And it also has an attractive color scheme. I like the shiny silver of the Santa Fe and Burlington and all, but this one looks pretty darn nice. I am somewhat tempted JUST BECAUSE. And the closest I model to this is a smattering of RF&P. I think it's going to do better than some folks are thinking. Ed
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Post by scl1234 on May 22, 2017 4:57:35 GMT -8
Agreed 1000%, however, the UP cars are so plentiful in both brass and plastic, it would be a waste. Just be glad you dont model a SE railroad, we have yet to have ANY correct passenger trains, we have to piece mill our trains together. But the guys at Walthers have always, IMO, been very anti-SE railroads. Greetings SCLer. I've always liked the SAL & SCL, maybe because I like Florida, boiled peanuts, and BBQ. It's not that Walthers is anti-SE railroad, it's that SE railroads, in general, have always been less studied (aka fans) and modeled. This goes way back. It becomes a cycle, SE prototypes don't get modeled because few people model SE prototypes (Hat tip Yogi Berra). I don't have all reasons why, but it could be some/all of the following: - Lower population density / more rural than the NE, especially 50+ years ago.
- Lower income than rest of US means less $ for railfanning/modeling
- Not as scenic as the West, NW, New England, Rocky Mountains...
- So many trees block the views, esp in flat areas, that it's hard to see trains. This is similar to the SE coastline. There are many stretches where you can be 1/2 mile from the ocean and not know it's there. Not so on the west coast.
- Lower grades mean fewer large locomotives that attract attention.
- Fewer high-profile locos, and trains, in the SE. There is no UP of the South.
Help me out here... [li]Five month long (May 1 - Sept 30) summers mean more time is spent doing outdoor (yard) work. Thus less hobby time.[/li]
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Post by scl1234 on May 22, 2017 4:58:25 GMT -8
Agreed 1000%, however, the UP cars are so plentiful in both brass and plastic, it would be a waste. Just be glad you dont model a SE railroad, we have yet to have ANY correct passenger trains, we have to piece mill our trains together. But the guys at Walthers have always, IMO, been very anti-SE railroads. Greetings SCLer. I've always liked the SAL & SCL, maybe because I like Florida, boiled peanuts, and BBQ. It's not that Walthers is anti-SE railroad, it's that SE railroads, in general, have always been less studied (aka fans) and modeled. This goes way back. It becomes a cycle, SE prototypes don't get modeled because few people model SE prototypes (Hat tip Yogi Berra). I don't have all reasons why, but it could be some/all of the following: - Lower population density / more rural than the NE, especially 50+ years ago.
- Lower income than rest of US means less $ for railfanning/modeling
- Not as scenic as the West, NW, New England, Rocky Mountains...
- So many trees block the views, esp in flat areas, that it's hard to see trains. This is similar to the SE coastline. There are many stretches where you can be 1/2 mile from the ocean and not know it's there. Not so on the west coast.
- Lower grades mean fewer large locomotives that attract attention.
- Fewer high-profile locos, and trains, in the SE. There is no UP of the South.
Help me out here... - Five month long (May 1 - Sept 30) summers mean more time is spent doing outdoor (yard) work. Thus less hobby time.
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Post by John Sheridan on May 22, 2017 9:13:18 GMT -8
Care to back this up with some source information ? Or do you have a mole inside Walthers feeding you their sales numbers ? Truth be told, you sound to me that you're just bitter that they haven't done *your* favorite trainsets.......yet. So what if they are blowing out unsold cars. In this happy little business of ours you can either let product sit on the self or move it. Since it is *their* product afterall (not some other manufacturer), they can do with it as they please. The worst they are going to do is break-even on the product - which means they will get their money back that they investing in the first place. But let me put this to you....since you are such a know-it-all on which trainsets are a slam-dunk & which are not, Why not put your money where your mouth is ? I'm serious here. I can put you in-touch with any manufacturer of your choosing (I have direct contacts in all the major players). You can put your own money on project x which you claim would be a slam-dunk success. They will in-turn manufacture package, & deliver it right to your front door. Hell, they 'll likely even be good enough to help you sell it through their distribution chain! How can you possibly lose ? Just find a spare 50,000 - 300,000,00 dollars lying around & your pet project is in play! I can't see your worries since you've got nothing to lose right because you are so sure of yourself right ? Right ? Right ? See if you invest in it yourself, you're taking that "nut job" out of the decision loop & you can call the shots. How can you possibly fail ? Oh wait.....you want someone else to take all the risk here on something you are so sure of will be a "slam dunk" (your words). Of course if they *do* listen to you & the project fails miserably, you can feel free to simply walk away while they sit on a pile of cars that will never sell & suck on the loss. Anything else ? I hope to hear from you & your wallet soon ok ?
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Post by John Sheridan on May 22, 2017 9:50:32 GMT -8
Agreed 1000%, however, the UP cars are so plentiful in both brass and plastic, it would be a waste. Just be glad you dont model a SE railroad, we have yet to have ANY correct passenger trains, we have to piece mill our trains together. But the guys at Walthers have always, IMO, been very anti-SE railroads. You make a pretty good point here about not being a single correct dedicated SE Railroad passenger set. However, for most of the Florida trains they were a mix-up of other roadnames as they moved on through the south. I can pretty much tell you why it has not been done however: For your typical manufacturer, the sales numbers for model SE railroad names is fairly low. This includes locomotives, rolling stock, etc. Does this mean that they will never be done ? Nope. What I am stating is the risk is high that a dedicated ACL/SAL/SCL/SOU/L&N/etc would be a dud as far as sales goes. Not one manufacturer has dared to dip their toes into these snark infested waters simply because the risk is very high that it will fail. Don't think your alone here. Midwest locomotives & rolling stock suffer the same low sales as SE stuff & they are just as risky. I model passenger trains myself & personally would love to have some Southern passenger equipment on my trainsets but I am not holding my breath on it. However, all is not lost. The SAL/ACL historical association is a pretty large group & does have some pull in the model rr community. If you could convince them to do what the NHRHTA did & invest directly into same passenger cars, this would lower the overall risk enough that you could get a model manufacturer to bite on the project. The NHRHTA stainless steel passenger cars were even more risky to make than any Southern railroad cars because the design was unique to the New Haven. Only a few made to Penn Central & even less to Amtrak (due to corrosion issues). Given the uniqueness of these cars & the fact you cannot amortize them across multiple roads (or even most of the parts as they were unique as well), made them a huge risk considering how much it costs to tool these unique cars. No one was willing to touch them. The NHRHTA put their money where their mouth is & directly invested their own funds into the project. It was enough cash to give the incentive to Rapido to move forward with the project & make the cars. While the cars were being tooled, the NHRHTA pre-sold the cars to anyone who wanted to buy them (at a pre-sales discount) in order to get a good idea if the project would be a success or failure. They pre-sold approx 1950 & added 50 more as extras for a total of 2000 cars. Rapido loved us as NHRHTA was committed to 2/3rds of the run before a single car was manufactured. The end result is that the coach cars was made, Rapido did not lose their shirt & the NHRHTA made a nice profit in the end. This same agreement is in-place for the Parlor cars which as of the cut-off last week has close to 1300 cars pre-sold. That's a little under half the total run of cars. Not bad eh ? A typical run of cars is around 3000-4000 cars. If you commit to investing in either a fixed amount of cars to purchase (Say oh 1500 cars) AND/OR invest directly in the tooling costs, this can prove that they cars would sell. If you can get the society to take this risk guess what ? You'll get passenger cars! If you are interested & the society is serious, let me know & I will help your project become a reality.
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Post by riogrande on May 22, 2017 10:31:21 GMT -8
At baldclam,
Is Walthers just anti-SE RR or do they believe that SE passenger trains would not sell well; after all, as a business, they are going to be carefully choosing what they can get a return for their investment. If you ran a company wouldn't you want to get your money back and turn a profit?
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Post by GP40P-2 on May 22, 2017 11:02:30 GMT -8
It seems that Walther's could dip their toe in the SE market, on a couple of lower risk possibilities, just choose one. 1) A Crescent Limited. What era, who knows, but the train is known outside of the southeast. 2) A City of New Orleans. Everyone knows the song. It has a Chicago / northern connection. 3) The original Auto-Train. Walther's has most of it already. What they don't have could be worked out with BLI and Atlas. Modern enough that many remember it, and the name lives on with Amtrak.
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Post by John Sheridan on May 22, 2017 11:17:27 GMT -8
At baldclam, Is Walthers just anti-SE RR or do they believe that SE passenger trains would not sell well; after all, as a business, they are going to be carefully choosing what they can get a return for their investment. If you ran a company wouldn't you want to get your money back and turn a profit? As I stated above, it is not just Passenger cars that do not sell well - it is locomotives, rolling stock etc. The market is there.....there is simply not enough sales to really justify the risk on a dedicated SE Railroad trainset. The South is mostly rural but even that dynamic is changing - take North & South Carolina for instance. We won't even get into Florida as many are transplants from the Northeast who model Northeast RRs instead of the ACL/SAL/FEC. Most people forget that our beloved manufacturers are in this business to turn some sort of profit. If they determined that a L&N Rebel Streamlined passenger set would turn a profit, they would do it - trust me. However, it is much safer to make stuff for railroads with huge markets like PRR, UP, ATSF, etc.because they can be 100% assured to move all the stock without a fire sale at the end & turn a profit too. The market is funny that way for some reason. However, one the oddballs as far as big railroads go is the NYC. For some strange reason, the numbers are always weak for NYC stuff even though the market is huge. I'll be damned if I can explain it but its true. NYC modelers just don't like to open their wallets.
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Post by dreadnought on May 22, 2017 11:27:45 GMT -8
As I stated above, it is not just Passenger cars that do not sell well - it is locomotives, rolling stock etc. The market is there.....there is simply not enough sales to really justify the risk on a dedicated SE Railroad trainset. The South is mostly rural but even that dynamic is changing - take North & South Carolina for instance. We won't even get into Florida as many are transplants from the Northeast who model Northeast RRs instead of the ACL/SAL/FEC. Most people forget that our beloved manufacturers are in this business to turn some sort of profit. If they determined that a L&N Rebel Streamlined passenger set would turn a profit, they would do it - trust me. However, it is much safer to make stuff for railroads with huge markets like PRR, UP, ATSF, etc.because they can be 100% assured to move all the stock without a fire sale at the end & turn a profit too. The market is funny that way for some reason. However, one the oddballs as far as big railroads go is the NYC. For some strange reason, the numbers are always weak for NYC stuff even though the market is huge. I'll be damned if I can explain it but its true. NYC modelers just don't like to open their wallets. You mean a GM&O Rebel Streamlined passenger set? In any event, I too am not sure why Southeast railroads seem to be forgotten by many manufacturers, but it probably has something to do with them not being sure about the market. The only models that I can think of that wouldn't have to be modified extensively by the end user to represent a SE railroad are diesels, and that's only because paint is a lot less expensive than making a whole new product. The same thing can be said for a lot of roads, however. Southeast railroads and Western railroads seem to be avoided like the plague, especially with regards to steam locomotives. Take, for instance, the DRGW L-131 class. It's a 2-8-8-2 with 63" drivers, so it isn't exactly a USRA locomotive (the drivers are 6" larger) but there hasn't been an inkling of one in plastic. It even looks cool. Meanwhile, the PRR modelers get K4s up to their ears, H-class Consolidations, two classes of duplexes, their 2-10-0s, the Mountain locomotives... even N&W is treated better than many other roads, but I hesitate to call them 'Southeast'. I don't think it's because there aren't many modelers of those roads, but that the manufacturers simply don't believe they want to buy locomotives. Who knows? Anyway, since I am hoping to become more involved in this business, I have a solution - sort of - at least for the locomotive thing, and that's resin shell kits. As you can probably see from my Babyface thread (which is an NE prototype, but you gotta start somewhere) these shells are significantly simpler to produce than entirely new locomotives, and allow you to model specific prototypes 'on the cheap' at least from the manufacturer's point of view. This type of thing could also work for steam locomotives, conceivably. Since a lot of steam locomotives have 'shells' similar to diesels, it could be theoretically possible to remove the shell from a Proto 2000 2-8-8-2 and replace it with a shell kit for modeling a DRGW L-131. You would have to get a different tender, but making a tender kit is a lot simpler than producing an entirely new chassis. Naturally, this will not produce a 100% correct locomotive - the drivers are still 6" too small - but it gets you a heck of a lot closer than you were before, and with a lot less time and effort than trying to kitbash or scratchbuild. At least, that's the idea. That is where I hope the future of prototype modeling is heading, since it's obvious that the big manufacturers want to make money a whole lot more than they want to replicate specific prototypes. I would not be surprised if Walthers decided to get out of the name train business, since tooling up for each new car is highly expensive and they have to do a new one each year. I wasn't entirely surprised when they canceled one of their name trains a few years back. I don't remember which one it was, but I remember being halfway excited about it since I though it looked like a neat train, only to see it canceled. Same thing with Rapido's five-axle C-liners, and I actually wanted to buy those. Dreadnought
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Post by John Sheridan on May 22, 2017 11:32:39 GMT -8
As I stated above, it is not just Passenger cars that do not sell well - it is locomotives, rolling stock etc. The market is there.....there is simply not enough sales to really justify the risk on a dedicated SE Railroad trainset. The South is mostly rural but even that dynamic is changing - take North & South Carolina for instance. We won't even get into Florida as many are transplants from the Northeast who model Northeast RRs instead of the ACL/SAL/FEC. Most people forget that our beloved manufacturers are in this business to turn some sort of profit. If they determined that a L&N Rebel Streamlined passenger set would turn a profit, they would do it - trust me. However, it is much safer to make stuff for railroads with huge markets like PRR, UP, ATSF, etc.because they can be 100% assured to move all the stock without a fire sale at the end & turn a profit too. The market is funny that way for some reason. However, one the oddballs as far as big railroads go is the NYC. For some strange reason, the numbers are always weak for NYC stuff even though the market is huge. I'll be damned if I can explain it but its true. NYC modelers just don't like to open their wallets. You mean a GM&O Rebel Streamlined passenger set? Dreadnought Opps! Shows you how much I know about that trainset! Mea Culpa.
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Post by nsc39d8 on May 22, 2017 11:49:18 GMT -8
Well, as Southern Railway modeler I am not sure on the loco sales but if you look Walther sold out on the Southern GP30 twice. Athearn tooled the GP39X of which Southern owned all 6, getting harder to find. If a company can sell a loco project like the GP39X in a road name with only 6 is doing good. Exactrail has sold out of the Europa scheme waffle boxcars, sales of this car in other schemes are still good with the SRHA.
In the past couple of years sales for Southern equipment have been good to all companies. So why doesn't one commit to passenger cars? Who knows! Remember, Southern didn't join Amtrak when it was created but held on till 1979!
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Post by John Sheridan on May 22, 2017 11:50:17 GMT -8
It's a 2-8-8-2 with 63" drivers, so it isn't exactly a USRA locomotive (the drivers are 6" larger) but there hasn't been an inkling of one in plastic. It even looks cool. Meanwhile, the PRR modelers get K4s up to their ears, H-class Consolidations, two classes of duplexes, their 2-10-0s, the Mountain locomotives... even N&W is treated better than many other roads, but I hesitate to call them 'Southeast'. I don't think it's because there aren't many modelers of those roads, but that the manufacturers simply don't believe they want to buy locomotives. Who knows? Why ? Because all of those PRR K4s can & will sell-out shortly after they are released. You offer a correct Pennsy prototype & they (PRR Modelers) will buy em all. They really support the hobby. Your Obscure & Southern Steam locomotive may not fare so well. Just don't follow Big Dawg (or whatever sockpuppet he is using these days) business model of taking other people's work, invoke a few changes & sell it as your own. The dark side it will take you & the Internet will take its revenge.
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Post by dreadnought on May 22, 2017 12:02:57 GMT -8
Chairman Meow (great name),
I must confess I am not read up on who does and does not support the hobby with regards to location. I would think that modelers of a certain road would support that road by buying that road's locomotives, but I suppose it is not always so. Further, I suppose there are simply more PRR modelers than there are Southern modelers? I must confess I do not know. You are probably right, though, that those locomotives wouldn't sell as well, and hence the manufacturers do not produce them. I live in the Southeast personally, so I am probably biased as to the amount of people who want to model Southeastern roads.
Further, I don't intend to pirate other's work. Such a business model is simply despicable. If you'd like to know, Big Dawg 'originals' goes by 'Pacific Northwest Resin' now. If you ever see any shells selling for about $30, it's probably him. Don't buy them. Buy from Kaslo Shops if you want good resin shells.
Regards, Dreadnought
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on May 22, 2017 16:56:10 GMT -8
I've always felt the Northern Pacific North Coast Limited would be a solid selling name train. But then again, it ain't my money or butt on the line. The Great Northern and the Northern Pacific Budd built 46 seat dome coaches are identical, except for one thing. The GN had a small coal fired auxiliary heater in their cars. This resulted in the cars having a small round vent on the roof near the vestibule. The NP's didn't have the stack. You can see the stack on GN #1325. Just ahead of 1325 is the SP&S owned dome coach for the NCL. On that car, you can see there is no stack. Walthers used their Empire Builder model and painted it in Northern Pacific Loewy two-tone paint, complete with heater stack. These cars are currently getting between $125 to over $150 on e-Bay. This is for just ONE car. So the NP modelers are willing to look past the heater stack for a nearly exact match. Another NP custom painted car, using the GN " Coulee Series" sleeper-observation, fetched just short of $190. So, it would seem the NP modelers are willing to some money. W&R brass NP passenger cars can go for nearly 1k a piece and some $1225 a piece. Does this mean that if Walthers were to spend the resources to produce a correct North Coast Limited, it would sell out before it hit the shores? Maybe and more than likely it wouldn't. Walthers pads its production to assist those that didn't play the reservation game, to get at least all or most of the cars as they become available. Producing the NCL is going to take a lot of all new cars. Example of a late 50's early 60's NCL Water-Baggage - Pullman-Standard 1946-47 RPO-Dormitory - Pullman-Standard 1946-47 46-seat Dome Coach - Budd 1954 56-seat "flat top" coach #500-517 - vestibule forward - Pullman-Standard 1946-47 46-seat Dome Coach - Budd 1954 56-seat "flat top" coach - #500-517 - vestibule forward - Pullman Standard 1946-47 56-seat "flat top" coach - #588-599 - vestibule rearward - Pullman-Standard 1946-47 "Travelers Rest" lounge - Pullman-Standard 1946-47 - rebuilt by NP in 1955 24-8 Slumbercoach - Budd 1959 - Walthers already has done the Slumbercoach 8-6-4 sleeper - Pullman-Standard 1954 Diner - Pullman-Standard 1946-47 - in service until replaced by Budd built diners in 1958 Diner - Budd 1958 - 1958 until BN merger 4-4-4 Dome sleeper - Budd 1954 8-6-3-1 sleeper - Pullman-Standard 1948 4-4-4 Dome Sleeper - Budd 1954 4-1 Sleeper-lounge-observation 1948 11 to 12 cars would be needed from the ground up. That is a big investment. At an average of $70 a car, give or take this consist would set a modeler back $1120, but still much cheaper than a Challenger Imports brass thirteen car set.
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 22, 2017 17:23:29 GMT -8
The Empire Builder was awfully good to Walthers. I'm not seeing why they aren't doing the NCL.
I'm also a bit mystified why they haven't done the GN 48-seat flat top coaches and the Mountain obs.
Ed
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Post by Brakie on May 23, 2017 1:43:37 GMT -8
As I stated above, it is not just Passenger cars that do not sell well - it is locomotives, rolling stock etc. The market is there.....there is simply not enough sales to really justify the risk on a dedicated SE Railroad trainset. The South is mostly rural but even that dynamic is changing - take North & South Carolina for instance. We won't even get into Florida as many are transplants from the Northeast who model Northeast RRs instead of the ACL/SAL/FEC. --------------------------------- John,As far as freight cars many modelers been lead astray after reading some "expert's" book on operation and especially the road names one should use..
A ACL,SAL,FEC SCL or any SE road car was seen in every state as any vintage photo or vintage railfan video will show if a modeler would use his eyes for seeing-that's a Forrest/tree thing. The majority of the modelers doesn't even know complete loaded and empty coal trains was interchanged for delivery to a off line customer like a steel mill,coke plant lake or tide port on another railroad because Joe Blowhard the "expert" said open hopper cars never left the home rails..
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Post by John Sheridan on May 23, 2017 4:04:26 GMT -8
A ACL,SAL,FEC SCL or any SE road car was seen in every state as any vintage photo or vintage railfan video will show if a modeler would use his eyes for seeing-that's a Forrest/tree thing. The majority of the modelers doesn't even know complete loaded and empty coal trains was interchanged for delivery to a off line customer like a steel mill,coke plant lake or tide port on another railroad because Joe Blowhard the "expert" said open hopper cars never left the home rails.. Oh I agree with you 100%. One of the key items most manufacturers follow is sales past & projected. Sales drive everything that is made. Sales drive what is to be produced & what will not be. If they were burned on the last run of product for a particular road & have lots of inventory sitting on the shelf, they become gun-shy about doing that road again. They might reconsider it again as a foobie line if the model is reasonably close. Of course foobies can sometime blow-up in your face too. If you vocal & supportive of a particular road, this helps tremendously as you are indicating that there is interest there. If a manufacturers sees reasonable interest, they might "test the waters". The NMRA convention is in Orlando this years. All the players will be there for the most part. This would be a good time to push for more Southern stuff.
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Post by Amboy Secondary on May 23, 2017 4:33:36 GMT -8
In some cases, such as the Northeast Corridor portion of the PRR/PC, the majority of the freight cars on the North - South freights were Southern Ownership, (ACL,SAL, SOU. A&WP etc.), New England and Canadian ownership. PRR equipment other than gondolas, or hoppers was scarce. Reality was that this portion of the Mighty Pennsy, was little more than a Terminal company or Bridge Line.
My own switching line, for instance represents a prototype that the experts would say never existed. The auto parts manufacturer and the Ford assembly plant used Reading and PRR special equipment, Pyrite for Allied Chemical came in wooden CN cars, (This in the 1960s), pulp for Scott Paper came in Canadian and New England ownership cars. XM boxcars were used for outbound finished paper. Refineries and Chemical plants used private ownership tanks and covered hoppers as well as PRR covered hoppers. Most of the general service cars came from the South.
Bottom line about "experts" is that they generalize based on their own limited knowledge of railroad operations and practices. Those of us, who have been there due to our employment, are more qualified to set ourselves up to be experts, but know better and don't, because we realize that 100 miles up the road, the operation, the car mix, and sometimes the lingo, is different.
Getting back to the original topic, I am attracted to the George Washington, because I rode it Westbound, twice, once in 1966, and once in 1967. The first trip was memorable, the second, not so memorable. The continued availability of left over Capitol Limited cars allows me to completely replicate the train I rode. But from a modeling standpoint, it doesn't fit in with my model railroad, so what's the point of buying something to fill up yet another Rubbermaid Container? I can make the same case for a Silver Meteor (worked it as a fireman), or the Southern Crescent. However, that attraction, doesn't necessarily translate to purchases.
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Post by wmcbride on May 23, 2017 5:50:36 GMT -8
It seems that Walther's could dip their toe in the SE market, on a couple of lower risk possibilities, just choose one. 1) A Crescent Limited. What era, who knows, but the train is known outside of the southeast. 2) A City of New Orleans. Everyone knows the song. It has a Chicago / northern connection. 3) The original Auto-Train. Walther's has most of it already. What they don't have could be worked out with BLI and Atlas. Modern enough that many remember it, and the name lives on with Amtrak. Exactly! Bill McBride
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Post by wmcbride on May 23, 2017 5:54:41 GMT -8
As I stated above, it is not just Passenger cars that do not sell well - it is locomotives, rolling stock etc. The market is there.....there is simply not enough sales to really justify the risk on a dedicated SE Railroad trainset. The South is mostly rural but even that dynamic is changing - take North & South Carolina for instance. We won't even get into Florida as many are transplants from the Northeast who model Northeast RRs instead of the ACL/SAL/FEC. Most people forget that our beloved manufacturers are in this business to turn some sort of profit. If they determined that a L&N Rebel Streamlined passenger set would turn a profit, they would do it - trust me. However, it is much safer to make stuff for railroads with huge markets like PRR, UP, ATSF, etc.because they can be 100% assured to move all the stock without a fire sale at the end & turn a profit too. The market is funny that way for some reason. However, one the oddballs as far as big railroads go is the NYC. For some strange reason, the numbers are always weak for NYC stuff even though the market is huge. I'll be damned if I can explain it but its true. NYC modelers just don't like to open their wallets. You mean a GM&O Rebel Streamlined passenger set? In any event, I too am not sure why Southeast railroads seem to be forgotten by many manufacturers, but it probably has something to do with them not being sure about the market. The only models that I can think of that wouldn't have to be modified extensively by the end user to represent a SE railroad are diesels, and that's only because paint is a lot less expensive than making a whole new product. The same thing can be said for a lot of roads, however. Southeast railroads and Western railroads seem to be avoided like the plague, especially with regards to steam locomotives. Take, for instance, the DRGW L-131 class. It's a 2-8-8-2 with 63" drivers, so it isn't exactly a USRA locomotive (the drivers are 6" larger) but there hasn't been an inkling of one in plastic. It even looks cool. Meanwhile, the PRR modelers get K4s up to their ears, H-class Consolidations, two classes of duplexes, their 2-10-0s, the Mountain locomotives... even N&W is treated better than many other roads, but I hesitate to call them 'Southeast'. I don't think it's because there aren't many modelers of those roads, but that the manufacturers simply don't believe they want to buy locomotives. Who knows? Anyway, since I am hoping to become more involved in this business, I have a solution - sort of - at least for the locomotive thing, and that's resin shell kits. As you can probably see from my Babyface thread (which is an NE prototype, but you gotta start somewhere) these shells are significantly simpler to produce than entirely new locomotives, and allow you to model specific prototypes 'on the cheap' at least from the manufacturer's point of view. This type of thing could also work for steam locomotives, conceivably. Since a lot of steam locomotives have 'shells' similar to diesels, it could be theoretically possible to remove the shell from a Proto 2000 2-8-8-2 and replace it with a shell kit for modeling a DRGW L-131. You would have to get a different tender, but making a tender kit is a lot simpler than producing an entirely new chassis. Naturally, this will not produce a 100% correct locomotive - the drivers are still 6" too small - but it gets you a heck of a lot closer than you were before, and with a lot less time and effort than trying to kitbash or scratchbuild. At least, that's the idea. That is where I hope the future of prototype modeling is heading, since it's obvious that the big manufacturers want to make money a whole lot more than they want to replicate specific prototypes. I would not be surprised if Walthers decided to get out of the name train business, since tooling up for each new car is highly expensive and they have to do a new one each year. I wasn't entirely surprised when they canceled one of their name trains a few years back. I don't remember which one it was, but I remember being halfway excited about it since I though it looked like a neat train, only to see it canceled. Same thing with Rapido's five-axle C-liners, and I actually wanted to buy those. Dreadnought I've always loved that GM&O Rebel. GM&O was one interesting railroad... Bill McBride
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Post by Brakie on May 23, 2017 6:11:18 GMT -8
The NMRA convention is in Orlando this years. All the players will be there for the most part. This would be a good time to push for more Southern stuff. -------------------------------------------- John, Absolutely! Every NTS I have attended here in Ohio I spend the day buying and talking to the reps from various manufacturers. I even had a very nice phone discussion with a rep at Athearn and the topic was in part about upgrading their BB SW1500 to RTR and I was told if there was enough interest then it would be discussed as a possible project. Apparently there was enough interest since the SW1500 is now a very nice RTR switcher. Manufacturers wants feed back and suggestions any modeler may have.
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Post by John Sheridan on May 23, 2017 6:54:50 GMT -8
Absolutely! Every NTS I have attended here in Ohio I spend the day buying and talking to the reps from various manufacturers. I even had a very nice phone discussion with a rep at Athearn and the topic was in part about upgrading their BB SW1500 to RTR and I was told if there was enough interest then it would be discussed as a possible project. Apparently there was enough interest since the SW1500 is now a very nice RTR switcher. Manufacturers wants feed back and suggestions any modeler may have. Some tips for chatting with the reps: 1. Don't be a foamer. (Yes, they are extremely annoying & can actually ruin a project). 2. Don't tell them things like "you guys are idiots for not making X" (Yes, insult them to your cause! Yes, it happens at almost every show). 4. Offer to help them in any way with the project (This is a huge tip for all of you - Be sure to follow-up after the show f they give you a business card). 5. If it is busy at the booth, wait patiently and/or go somewhere else. Let them know you will return later for further discussion & excuse yourself. (See #1). 6. Be polite. (Again see #1 & #2 & 5.). 7. Never, ever say the following words: "I'll buy one!" (Oh great, that leaves 2999 to 3999 still sitting on the shelves.). 8. Bring hard data with you if you have it. 9. Many Reps recognize the same faces at various shows. However, since there are a zillion of you & one of them, they might not remember your name or what you told them previously. Be polite & remind them. If you didn't violate 1-8, they will remember you & want to discuss further.
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Post by Brakie on May 23, 2017 9:54:17 GMT -8
John, I will add a common courtesy to your list that is overlooked.
10.Thank you for talking with me.
Yes,that's his job but,the person should be thanked anyway.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2017 18:27:57 GMT -8
Regarding Southeastern prototypes "not selling very well": Athearn initially announced then dropped (due to lack of interest) an ACL/SCL Genesis F unit in the last couple years, and then some people actually complained on Facebook, and they did reconsider and offer it again. Whether or not it received enough orders, that I do not know--but I read the discussion on the Facebook page. I was attempting to model SCL at one point years ago, but then gave up because of the utter lack of available models.
In Bowser's case they made a pretty correct model of the SCL C-430, and it just did not sell, period. Lee English jokes publicly that he cannot give them away, and they are actively stripping the ones left laying on the shelves for parts. I've seen the pile of junk black and yellow shells.
So it seems the support from the buying public for southeastern railroads has been spotty. Given Bowser's experience they will be loathe to produce any more southeastern roadnames.
In contrast, simply announcing SP&S and Burlington Northern and Illinois Central roadnames causes pre-orders to flood in. SP&S fans are rabid supporters, as are NP, CB&Q, BN, GN fans...they buy.
I love some of the southeastern US passenger schemes and wish I could buy them in plastic...but the really bright fancy trains seemingly are only available in brass.
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Post by peoriaman on May 24, 2017 3:18:08 GMT -8
In Bowser's case they made a pretty correct model of the SCL C-430, and it just did not sell, period. Lee English jokes publicly that he cannot give them away, and they are actively stripping the ones left laying on the shelves for parts. I've seen the pile of junk black and yellow shells. I thought I read here on the forum the C430 was the best (or fastest?) selling model ever?
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 8:50:20 GMT -8
Not Seaboard Coast Line. It did not sell. Obviously, they got close enough to the minimum required order to do that roadname, but the overage/extras they made to have stock on hand never sold.
Also, the C430 does not sell like the C628/C630/C630M, so I don't know who made that statement about it being the fastest or best seller, or in what context...
The only reason the C430 was even produced was that Bowser received a relatively lowball offer from an outside vendor to complete the actual tooling (most Bowser design has been done here in the US). The low cost of tooling made a smaller run of engines possible. Without the reduced price of the tooling, there were not going to be enough sales to ever have justified making a C430 in the first place. That the model even exists is "good fortune".
Perhaps if it was a fast initial sellout, that might have been because the production run was a bit smaller than some? I don't know.
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