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Post by Artur on Oct 15, 2017 16:45:24 GMT -8
I'm having very frustrating issue with the sergerant couplers. I cleaned all parts very well before assembly and once assembled the knuckle will not close, I can close it with a magnet but it should close on its own without using a magnet looks like the metal ball bearing i blocking it, the knuckle should move that ball up into the upper part of the coupler but its jamming and wont budge. anyone else had an issue like this.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 15, 2017 16:50:24 GMT -8
At the beginning, you say "couplers". But the following words all imply only one coupler.
How many have you built previously that have worked properly? Is this the only one that's being a problem, or is it more than one--how many?
Ed
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 16:57:42 GMT -8
Yes, I have this issue all the time. The ball gets jammed up in there. I do not know the remedy for this either. It is good to know the magnet loosens it. I have been lightly tapping it to get it to fall.
Brian
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Post by Artur on Oct 15, 2017 17:13:13 GMT -8
I've built 15 so far and all are having this issue, some work fine at first but jam later. and I got a handful that are jammed all the time. I thought it was me but looks like some of you are having the same issue.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 17:23:20 GMT -8
I had the same problem a couple of years ago. I sold mine off on New Years Eve 2015. Went back to Kadee "Scale"...voila! No problems. Personally, I think it was the way I was assembling them, but I got tired of building and having to re-build the couplers.
They look fantastic...but in the end, I wanted to operate my layout...and the idea of first replacing all those couplers on the ExactRail fleet alone was daunting. Let alone having to take the car back apart and repair it. Now, I can simply clip off the trip pin, weather the car, and I'm in business.
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Post by sp8299 on Oct 15, 2017 17:33:54 GMT -8
Are you using a round toothpick to burnish the insides of the ball bearing holes before you assemble them? The insides have to be smooth and free of any debris; otherwise, you run the risk of the ball bearing hanging up and jamming the knuckle open or closed.
Also, are you painting them before or after assembly?
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Post by Artur on Oct 15, 2017 17:54:05 GMT -8
Are you using a round toothpick to burnish the insides of the ball bearing holes before you assemble them? The insides have to be smooth and free of any debris; otherwise, you run the risk of the ball bearing hanging up and jamming the knuckle open or closed. Also, are you painting them before or after assembly? I've been using an exacto knife I didn't have a toothpick, I will dismantle one and clean the ball bearing holes with a toothpick I really hope that will fix it. I didn't paint them yet.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 15, 2017 18:00:49 GMT -8
I haven't built any; I'm still using up my old pre-assembled ones. Out of about 20 of those, they all worked perfectly and still do.
So, for now, I'm voting on a "failure of assembly technique".
I may well be joining you all, as I'm about out of the pre-assembled. I almost started building some today, but I got distracted by the Scale Trains sound-equipped reefer containers.
Ed
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 15, 2017 18:06:18 GMT -8
I have found a few that had this happen. I think what's happening is the knuckle is opening too far and the ball is able to fall behind the knuckle's tab inside the coupler. For me the solution was to disassemble them and install a bit of styrene in the slot the knuckle tab fits into to limit the end of the knuckle travel then reassemble.
I would recommend using a magnifier when you build them and check for flash and debris. It's rare there's anything in there, but when there is it's important to remove the problem and not enlarge any openings or voids, especially where the ball rests.
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Post by Artur on Oct 15, 2017 19:41:52 GMT -8
I have found a few that had this happen. I think what's happening is the knuckle is opening too far and the ball is able to fall behind the knuckle's tab inside the coupler. For me the solution was to disassemble them and install a bit of styrene in the slot the knuckle tab fits into to limit the end of the knuckle travel then reassemble. I would recommend using a magnifier when you build them and check for flash and debris. It's rare there's anything in there, but when there is it's important to remove the problem and not enlarge any openings or voids, especially where the ball rests. I'm glad that you mentioned that, I had a look at the couplers and that is exactly what's happening the knuckle is opening to far and the ball drops down blocking it from closing again. This should be an easy fix but we really shouldn't have to do this seems like a manufacturing defect.
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 15, 2017 20:13:43 GMT -8
I've had it happen often enough that I try to spot it during assembly. What I've found many times, especially with the couplers I built early on, is that the knuckles have been trimmed too much. About 1 out of 6 or 7 knuckles have a little bit of "sprue" on it, for lack of a better term. When I've trimmed this little bit off I have been prone to taking too much material off the knuckle and creating this problem. I have several extra knuckles so I've replaced those knuckles that I screwed up. Now I just check everything dry before gluing it together. It takes more time, but certainly less than soaking/fixing/reassembling. After building over 600 couplers, I can finally build these almost trouble-free.
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Post by canrailfan on Oct 15, 2017 20:42:10 GMT -8
Use a wood toothpick to just burnish the hole for the ball bearing, you don't want to enlarge it or change its shape. It's possible the knife blade is opening the hole up slightly, allowing the ball to get behind the knuckle.
I've assembled about 200 couplers so far and my only significant problem has been getting glue where it's not supposed to be! I use acetone to 'disassemble' the coupler and then reassemble it, being more careful with the glue of course. With the Type E couplers I check for casting problems but have found very few that needed any cleanup. The shelf and tight-lock couplers usually need some cleanup before assembly because of the different process used to make them.
So far I haven't bothered to fill the seams and the hole in the drawbar, I find them unnoticeable in most situations. I rub an HB pencil lead inside the coupler knuckle and on the face of the knuckle as recommended in the instructions.
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Post by peoriaman on Oct 16, 2017 3:24:21 GMT -8
I bought enough couplers to do six cars... They worked fine on the bench so I ordered enough to do nine more.
Then when they were all assembled I took them all to my former club and found several of them had issues... Usually, knuckles which were stuck closed. I put all the cars back in their boxes and haven't touched them since. Throw in the dim lighting (don't get me started!) at the club and they were just too hard to see.
I sort of assumed there is some mold-release substance on them? I burnished them as instructed, and lubed them with the pencil afterward... If I ever get motivated I'll just switch everything back to Kadees.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2017 9:23:56 GMT -8
These are helpful tips all thanks for the heads up on this.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2017 17:57:21 GMT -8
I was a big proponent of these couplers a few years back...and I would restate that my issues were of my doing...in that I don't think I was assembling them properly.
I would echo the suggestions of those on here that have had success with sergent couplers and add "take your time" in assembling them...as often times I am a victim of my own impatience.
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Post by Artur on Oct 19, 2017 23:02:55 GMT -8
I'd like to add that some of the couplers I was assembling the knuckle ended up on an slight angle, it was hard to notice at first. this would cause it to jam as well. Make sure all surfaces are clean and take your time assembling and they will function perfectly.
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Post by bar on Oct 20, 2017 5:58:17 GMT -8
I got a pair of Sergents (no "a") when they first came out. They're still in the package. The labor and cost of switching over even a modest fleet elicits the same lukewarm reaction as when I show my HO deadrail r/c loco to people with legacy DCC systems.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 20, 2017 7:49:06 GMT -8
Sergents aren't for everyone. As has been illustrated here.
I think it's unfortunate that Sergent doesn't offer assembled couplers anymore. I was (and still am) a bit anxious about assembling little teensy bits perfectly. With the assembled "compatible" ones, all I had to do was drop them in the coupler box. Oh, yeah. And stick that teeny spring in there (not a big problem for those of us who assembled sprung trucks). But I was able to get my Sergents out of their package and onto a couple of cars and try them out. Unlike some people. They looked great and worked great. So then I looked for, as Herb Tarlek said, op-portunities.
After handling the assembled couplers for awhile, and shaking the pieces out of the envelope of the unassembled ones, I've gotten to the point where I'll be trying to put some together. With the aid of the special assembly jig.
I doubt I'll ever do the whole fleet, 'cause the official standard for Free-mo is Kadees. And if you want to "interchange" with other "associates", your couplers have to match. My unit trains don't do that, so Sergents aren't a problem.
Ed
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 20, 2017 11:27:33 GMT -8
Ed, where does free-mo specify Kadee as a standard? Or is this a local standard?
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 20, 2017 11:47:42 GMT -8
Ed, where does free-mo specify Kadee as a standard? Or is this a local standard? I thought it was in THE standard. It's not. It IS in the Norcalf standard, which folks I pal around with: "Kadee #5 or #58; no substitute brands allowed as they all have one problem or another" Read strictly, that would eliminate several varieties of Kadee couplers (all shelf, offset, long and short shank). In practice, I expect it would only be used if someone was running non-Kadees and had repeated coupler problems (could that happen?). It then becomes the "official" reason for informing them to take their non-wonderful coupler equipped rolling stock off the tracks. I do, on occasion, run non-Kadees. If one of them screws up, the car is immediately removed, hopefully before anyone else notices and develops an opinion that I don't want held. As far as running Sergents, anyone expressing opinions had positive ones. Nobody mentioned the "Kadee rule". As long as my rolling stock doesn't interact with other people's, I don't see a problem equipping them with Sergents. Right now, that would be unit coal trains, most intermodal, and most passenger trains. On t'other hand, one of the guys is building an orange packing module. And I have Kadee equipped reefers to spot there. Ed
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 20, 2017 12:32:22 GMT -8
OK, good. I was afraid I missed something. Our little free-mo group doesn't specify a standard coupler in part because a few of us use Sergents successfully and many others use Kadees successfully. It's hard to convince someone to consider changing over when they have a large sunk cost into Kadees, which were themselves purchased as an add-on or upgrade item. I was tricked into changing over. I was paid for some minor scenery work with Sergent couplers. Then I convinced myself. That was in the fall of 2011, IIRC. I started off with a bulk pack of Es and got a few locomotives and a lot of covered hoppers equipped. By the first part of 2012 I think I had well over half of my equipment converted. When I was on the road staying in hotels during the next year I knocked out the other half. I've just kept up with new purchases by picking up four or five of what I need at a time. I ran that first train on a free-mo layout I participated in at the Oklahoma City train show in December 2011. We had a couple problem joints between modules that had to be fixed the first day, but after that everything ran smoothly. I ran the Sergent grain train on the last day and didn't have any of the issues people anticipated. It ran just fine. Since then I've participated in a few other setups (not as many as I'd like), and again no issues due to couplers. A friend of mine runs passenger equipment and he uses a lot of tightlock couplers, which like their prototype counterpart stay coupled together very well. This actually created some problems on less-than-perfect track, especially those ski-slope transitions that sometimes occur at the module ends. He designed and I 3D printed some draft gear boxes that allow the couplers to have some vertical and torsional movement to accommodate the finicky couplers. I have used a couple of them on cars with Type F couplers. I haven't tried pulling any heavy "trailing tonnage" behind these special coupler boxes, but when I have tried them out they worked well. I don't interchange my equipment with others because of the incompatibility issue, except for the few who have converted. Really the biggest obstacle I encountered was the layouts were so short lived that building an operating scheme with interchanged equipment was difficult enough without having to keep cars segregated by coupler type. I offered up cars still equipped with Kadees for those sessions, but my participation has dropped off in recent years (due to work, not because I don't enjoy or have a problem with free-mo). Realistically though, most people I ran with just wanted to run trains, not switch cars or work a "lead job" in the yard, so the opportunities for interchange were limited by the participants anyway. I figured with such little buy-in on the operating side among my fellow free-moers, I didn't see it as an obstacle to me making the switch to Sergents.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 20, 2017 13:12:18 GMT -8
I was considering using Sergent tightlocks on my passenger cars (the ones that had them), but I don't want to lose the ability to "uncouple" with five fingers. As in, when packing up. That holds for tank cars, too; though it's real easy to stick the Sergent magnet down there, I guess. Not so, with diaphragms. It's been pointed out that couplers between passenger cars are so buried that most people would never know WHAT couplers you were using. But the other thing Sergents give you is much less slack. And that has a lot of appeal for just about any car. Or loco: I first got interested in the Sergents way way back. I had bought an ABA set of Proto passenger F-M's. When I put them on the track, each unit kind of had its own opinion on when to go where. And the excess slack really made it worse looking. So, I says to myself, how can I get less slack? ? Yeah, the ski jumps at the end of some modules can be a problem. It appears foam is to blame. We're about as down on foam as you can be. Lately, the setups have been mostly foam-module free. And the joints are MUCH better. I am quite impressed at the track quality I've been seeing at setups around here. Derailments and de-coupling is pretty rare. And sometimes is made worse by people's equipment. Like a certain Blue Empire Builder that hasn't had its coupler height checked by the owner. Uh, me. Oops. Live and learn. And learn. And learn. Ed
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 20, 2017 14:02:40 GMT -8
Yeah, live and learn on the foam issue. We use plywood roadbed with cork now. Cork directly on foam created some interesting alignment problems over the years.
Working for the railroad got me to where I could identify any of the various couplers pretty quickly. The Kadee shelf couplers were the coupler that was a bridge too far for me. I absolutely hate how they look, how oversize they are and how they don't even come close to resembling the prototype in appearance. Function? Okay, maybe, but appearance? Not even close. When I started converting my fleet the Type SE and F weren't regular production parts and they didn't stay in stock long when they were cast. Once they became available as diecast parts instead of lost wax cast parts that's when I pulled the trigger and converted all my tank cars and locomotives so equipped (BN, some MKT, some SOU).
Sergents definitely give you much less slack. If you're running intermodal or unit coal/grain/sand/ethanol or something like that, the train can perform like the prototype. If you're running a vehicle train or lots of coils, insulated boxcars or something else with a lot of cushioning, Kadees are actually closer to the prototype, though the slack on the real thing doesn't yoyo like it does with Kadees, but it's definitely not stiff like with Sergent couplers. I wish there was an easy way to replicate the effect cushioning has on train operation. Controlling the last car with precision from a mile away is when I'm having the most fun running an engine.
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Post by canrailfan on Oct 20, 2017 17:21:21 GMT -8
From what I've observed, most of the 'slack' action in modern day trains (prototype) is in the draft gear, not the couplers. Maybe it's time for someone to come up with a working model of cushioned draft gear in HO! Not necessarily through the entire car frame but at least the cushioned pockets.
Combined with Sergent couplers this would give the best overall simulation of the prototype.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 20, 2017 17:59:51 GMT -8
Ya know, I believe the old Kadee #4's did exactly that.
I swear I've got some here somewhere. Maybe I'll find them someday and double check.
Ed
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 20, 2017 18:24:42 GMT -8
Ya know, I believe the old Kadee #4's did exactly that. I swear I've got some here somewhere. Maybe I'll find them someday and double check. Ed You're right, I inherited some cars equipped with them from my grandfather. Those were the ones with the square slot in the shank for the spring, right? Sergent couplers do the same thing to a limited extent, depending on the size of the center post. Of course, the spring isn't strong enough to provide meaningful cushioning or resistance. The idea of an end-of-car cushioning device is certainly intriguing. I'll bet a sliding center sill could be done. The movable center sill is very noticeable not just while running but during switching operations as well. For example, when we spot beer cars we set a bunch air so the cars stop on a dime and line up with the door just right. You can see the center sill move while the car stays put.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 20, 2017 20:09:25 GMT -8
You're right, I inherited some cars equipped with them from my grandfather. Those were the ones with the square slot in the shank for the spring, right? Yup, those are them. I believe that describes the Kadee cushion car. The body slides on the centersill. Ed
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Post by riogrande on Oct 21, 2017 6:21:55 GMT -8
Interesting comments but I agree totally, although I haven't had any personal experience with foam. There are a large percentage of layout builders on MR forums who sing the praises of foam. They all seem happy as clams but maybe its worse for modules than with a permanent layout.
I'm old school and prefer plywood with cork or for yards, Homasote.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 21, 2017 7:01:48 GMT -8
The layouts of "layout builders on MR forums" only have to satisfy the owners.
The modules of Free-mo people have to satisfy the people that they assemble with.
I have seen some Free-mo modules that satisfied the owners but did not satisfy "the people".
Ed
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Post by steveturner on Oct 21, 2017 14:38:54 GMT -8
Foam for scenery only............building track work on foam must give folks a sinking feeling! Steve
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