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Post by tony on Jan 28, 2018 14:11:04 GMT -8
I'm looking for information on the design and evolution of the E6/E7 radiators. More of an engineering perspective verse a modeling view.
I've seen pictures from the mid-to-late 1950's and sometimes you see vents that appear to be adjustable or pivot-able, shields before and aft of the radiator sections, and sometime it looks like the factory top sections have been removed results in exposed carlines or framing, but have not really seen detailed photos to understand exactly what going on there.
Has anyone seen anything written and published regarding the design? Something that gets into the design and mods over time and perhaps what the original designs flaws might have been which lead to all these various type of changes.
Fuel tank and battery box mods are also of interest, but will get back to that later.
Any suggestions? Any existing E6 or E7 existing in museums?
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 28, 2018 14:30:02 GMT -8
The E7's originally had roof mounted shutters. If you go to the Fallen Flags site, they have an E7 instruction book which discusses and shows the actuating mechanism. It appears some had the shutters removed:  I'm not sure I'd call that correcting a design flaw. Lots of E7's kept them. Maybe more of a design improvement. One hopes, anyway. Strasburg apparently has the only E7, except it looks like it's been modified. So the shutters may well be gone. However, I imagine the radiators themselves are either original or "factory" replacements. Ed |
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Post by tony on Jan 28, 2018 15:56:45 GMT -8
Ed, I read the manually you recommended - I didn't know these sfutters were designed with automatic switches for open/close based upon temp setting switch. I wonder if they were problems with those switches and relays which lead to the removal. The operator guides shows how to manually open the shutters.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 28, 2018 16:39:34 GMT -8
Yup, there's some wonderment there.
Ed
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Post by spookyac47 on Jan 29, 2018 13:57:06 GMT -8
The E7's originally had roof mounted shutters. If you go to the Fallen Flags site, they have an E7 instruction book which discusses and shows the actuating mechanism. It appears some had the shutters removed: I'm not sure I'd call that correcting a design flaw. Lots of E7's kept them. Maybe more of a design improvement. One hopes, anyway. Strasburg apparently has the only E7, except it looks like it's been modified. So the shutters may well be gone. However, I imagine the radiators themselves are either original or "factory" replacements. Ed Many of the railroads that rostered E-7 locomotives modified them over time to improve cooling for the equipment in the carbody. They generic designation was Phase II for the modified units. Not all railroads modified them with all the additional venting. In the picture of the Pennsy E-7B, the roof vents are the Phase 2 version, the slatted vents being replaced with screening. Generally a second screened vent was installed at the rear of the body on both sides. The addition extended the vent to approximately twice it's original size. Additionally, the center pair of windows was modified to one window and three screened vents were installed forward of the center window on the body side. On the E-7A units, vents behind the cab were also modified from their original configuration. Generally the side skirts were eliminated to provide better access to the underbody parts, such as the fuel tank, water tank, etc. |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jan 29, 2018 15:01:32 GMT -8
Many of the railroads that rostered E-7 locomotives modified them over time to improve cooling for the equipment in the carbody. They generic designation was Phase II for the modified units. Not all railroads modified them with all the additional venting. In the picture of the Pennsy E-7B, the roof vents are the Phase 2 version, the slatted vents being replaced with screening. Generally a second screened vent was installed at the rear of the body on both sides. The addition extended the vent to approximately twice it's original size. Additionally, the center pair of windows was modified to one window and three screened vents were installed forward of the center window on the body side. On the E-7A units, vents behind the cab were also modified from their original configuration. Generally the side skirts were eliminated to provide better access to the underbody parts, such as the fuel tank, battery box, etc. The battery boxes on E7's through the E9 were inside the car body by the steam generator. In the photo of the PRR E7B the large tank is the water tank. The smaller tank is for fuel. Steam generators appetite for water was well known in the industry. The added vents were for increased air flow in the body. In the photo the forward vent, where the cab would be opens to the engine room. E7B's had a second water tank where the cab should be. E7's were the last E-unit not to have a pressurized engine room. You can't have good combustion without sufficient air. The removal of the shutters were for better cooling of the radiators. Some roads like the CB&Q and SP&S(one unit) did not remove windows for venting. The only vent the Q added was back by the boiler. In the photo the three openings between the front and added rear vent were for air to the radiators. The E8 and E9's had much improved radiator cooling and had the pressurized body. You now had doors that separated the steam generator compartment from the engine room. On early E's the area was wide open. |
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Post by tony on Jan 29, 2018 15:55:57 GMT -8
In the EMD op guide- the mentions that the front diesel is cooled by the front and middle radiators, the rear diesel is cooled by the middle and rear radiators. In the cross section diagram it looks like the front diesel radiator has two cores mated together - there would be a tight and left and the same for the rear diesel - so what do they mean when they refer to the middle radiator? Are they talking about specific radiator core sections? I believe it's designed with redundancy - if the front diesel water pump failed it would still get cooling by integration with the rear diesel water pump- is that correct?
Still looking for pictures of the cores - from an internal view and cores before installation.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 29, 2018 16:16:01 GMT -8
In the EMD op guide- the mentions that the front diesel is cooled by the front and middle radiators, the rear diesel is cooled by the middle and rear radiators. In the cross section diagram it looks like the front diesel radiator has two cores mated together - there would be a tight and left and the same for the rear diesel - so what do they mean when they refer to the middle radiator? Are they talking about specific radiator core sections? I think you're misinterpreting the guide. When they talk about the "middle", they're talking about the middle TWO sets of radiator shutters. There are also the front set and rear set. There are four sets, total. The middle set of shutters are both operated together. They open whenever either engines demands. The front set opens when the front engine demands. The rear set opens when the rear engine demands. When I look at the drawing, it looks to me like there are 4 radiator cores: a left and right for the front engine, and a left and right for the rear. I don't agree there is a split where you think there is. The water systems for each engine are totally separate. If the front diesel water pump fails, that engine will shut down. Or die. Ed |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jan 30, 2018 5:07:01 GMT -8
In the EMD op guide- the mentions that the front diesel is cooled by the front and middle radiators, the rear diesel is cooled by the middle and rear radiators. In the cross section diagram it looks like the front diesel radiator has two cores mated together - there would be a tight and left and the same for the rear diesel - so what do they mean when they refer to the middle radiator? Are they talking about specific radiator core sections? I think you're misinterpreting the guide. When they talk about the "middle", they're talking about the middle TWO sets of radiator shutters. There are also the front set and rear set. There are four sets, total. The middle set of shutters are both operated together. They open whenever either engines demands. The front set opens when the front engine demands. The rear set opens when the rear engine demands. When I look at the drawing, it looks to me like there are 4 radiator cores: a left and right for the front engine, and a left and right for the rear. I don't agree there is a split where you think there is. The water systems for each engine are totally separate. If the front diesel water pump fails, that engine will shut down. Or die. Ed Ed is correct. The water system for the two engines is separate. At one time in the 1980's before we got the forward prime mover fixed on the CB&Q E5A 9911A at the Illinois Railway Museum, we only operated the rear engine. On an E, the front engine provides power for the front truck and the rear engine the rear truck. The only thing that the two engines tie into together is the low voltage system. That way if one engine fails, you still have power to headlights, boiler, etc. The shutters on the early E's were air operated, at least Silver Pilot is that way. The cooling of the two engines is independent of each other. If the front engine is running warm then the front shutters open and vice versa for the rear engine and shutters. The middle vent on the early E's is shared by the two prime movers. The ducts on the side is where the engines draws air in to force over the radiators and out through the roof. Hence the shutters opening and closing. |
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Post by tony on Jan 30, 2018 11:36:58 GMT -8
The PA RR Museum has this interesting 360 degree view. rrmuseumpa.org/QR/e7engineroom/Doesn't provide the detail of the radiator cores I'm looking for, but I've emailed them to check. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 30, 2018 12:33:53 GMT -8
That is pretty double darn neat.
Looks like the radiators have been removed.
Ed
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jan 30, 2018 12:41:44 GMT -8
That is pretty double darn neat. Looks like the radiators have been removed. Ed Radiators are still in place . You would have seen streaming daylight through area where the removable pans are not fully closed. Tony: PM on this site member onequiknova(John), he did a build of a heavily modified Rock Island E7A. John did his own custom etchings of the radiator cores, since Rock Island also removed the shutters. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 30, 2018 14:03:24 GMT -8
Actually, you can see daylight through an opening right over head. And some screening.
I do think the radiators would be above the obvious removable hatches. Way down in the distance, you can see what looks like one of the cooling fans. So I imagine the fans (one on each end of an engine) blew air towards the center of the locomotive and past the radiators that are (or were) above the hatches. Then the hot air would go out the rooftop openings.
Again, a very neat video thing to explore!!!
Ed
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Post by tony on Jan 30, 2018 14:26:29 GMT -8
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jan 30, 2018 14:41:09 GMT -8
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