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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Feb 3, 2018 6:06:27 GMT -8
Well there is not much to say about the video except that I did a review of the three Rapido Cylindrical hoppers that I purchased at the Amherst Train Show. I recorded this video yesterday (Feb. 2, 2018), edited it last night and uploaded it today, now here it is! Thanks for watching another Monster Production! Sponsored by: Nobody Homey!
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Post by cp6027 on Feb 3, 2018 8:51:36 GMT -8
The confusion on the placement of the brake cylinders and brake lines/rods down the side of the model is because Rapido posted a picture of a CN 3800 from a different number series than what the model represents. The picture is of the CN 370881-371580 series built by NSC in 1966-67. The model is numbered in the CN 369000-369999 series built by NSC in 1975 and correctly matches the high brake cylinders and other brake rod/line details of this number series: canadianfreightcargallery.ca/cgi-bin/image.pl?i=cn369022&o=cnNot all of the 3800s had tack boards so I'm glad Rapido left them as a separate part. Unfortunately also I've experienced some similar hit-and-miss metal walkway issues with the larger cylindricals from Intermountain and NARC. Rapido has always been very good at addressing any quality control issues with the models I have purchased from them so I do suggest contacting them directly via email.
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Feb 4, 2018 20:07:23 GMT -8
Thanks for the clarification, I knew there had to be some reason for the difference. I would have loved to hear a response about that from Rapido but it's all good.
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mecu18b
Full Member
My doctor gave me six months to live, but when I couldn't pay the bill he gave me six months more.
Posts: 146
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Post by mecu18b on Feb 5, 2018 11:33:29 GMT -8
Your welcome...hehehehehehe
COO Norfolk Terminal Modern Narrow Gauge
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chitownjeff
Junior Member
I'm here to chew bubblegum and kick ass and I'm all out of bubblegum
Posts: 67
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Post by chitownjeff on Feb 7, 2018 9:33:09 GMT -8
So Al will these cars get the chop saw treatment? LOL
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Feb 7, 2018 10:29:19 GMT -8
So Al will these cars get the chop saw treatment? LOL LOL, yes they were definitely miter chop saw candidates for sure!! In fact, I was going to go there but then I realized that I let a friend borrow my miter chop saw and he has it till this weekend so that was off the table. Now after I get my three Procor models and if they are again bad, Then they will get the miter chop saw treatment.
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Post by mvlandsw on Feb 7, 2018 14:49:11 GMT -8
Why are we still having these problems with etched running boards? There have been numerous posts stating that canopy cement or similar glues solve the problem. Is that not true, or don't the manufacturers read them?
In the video the gray color of the car appears to be too dark compared to the photo.
Are the grab irons all wire or are there some cast on or plastic ones?
Mark Vinski
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Feb 7, 2018 15:56:42 GMT -8
Why are we still having these problems with etched running boards? There have been numerous posts stating that canopy cement or similar glues solve the problem. Is that not true, or don't the manufacturers read them?
In the video the gray color of the car appears to be too dark compared to the photo.
Are the grab irons all wire or are there some cast on or plastic ones?
Mark Vinski Yeah, the gray color does appear to be a bit too dark. I agree. The grab irons are all wire but the bottom foot steps are plastic.
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mecu18b
Full Member
My doctor gave me six months to live, but when I couldn't pay the bill he gave me six months more.
Posts: 146
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Post by mecu18b on Feb 8, 2018 16:29:00 GMT -8
So Al will these cars get the chop saw treatment? LOL LOL, yes they were definitely miter chop saw candidates for sure!! In fact, I was going to go there but then I realized that I let a friend borrow my miter chop saw and he has it till this weekend so that was off the table. Now after I get my three Procor models and if they are again bad, Then they will get the miter chop saw treatment. So im gonna have to put 3 more aside for ya?? LOL COO Norfolk Terminal Modern Narrow Gauge
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Post by 12bridge on Feb 8, 2018 16:39:02 GMT -8
Boy everybody is a youtube model railroad reviewer all of a sudden these days...
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Feb 8, 2018 21:52:57 GMT -8
Boy everybody is a youtube model railroad reviewer all of a sudden these days... Yeah, because I just got into this hobby a few weeks ago, bought a video camera and started doing reviews all of a sudden for the first time just a couple of weeks ago. Now I am a YouTube model railroad reviewer.
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Post by milgentrains on Feb 9, 2018 4:22:54 GMT -8
So Al will these cars get the chop saw treatment? LOL I'll wait to see how James feels about these cars.
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Post by John Sheridan on Feb 9, 2018 5:13:16 GMT -8
Why are we still having these problems with etched running boards? There have been numerous posts stating that canopy cement or similar glues solve the problem. Is that not true, or don't the manufacturers read them?
In the video the gray color of the car appears to be too dark compared to the photo.
Are the grab irons all wire or are there some cast on or plastic ones?
Mark Vinski The problem is the glue. Your typical model is built using ACC cement. ACC is pretty strong stuff - however, the failing of ACC is that is has no shear strength. At the factory the model is assembled (we're not talking about 2 or 3 but thousands. ). It is QA'd, & placed in the box. Typically during shipping, the model encounters a wide variety of temperatures (Shipping container, destination, etc). Well, in these wide variances in temperature, the plastic & metal etch expand & contract - both at different rates. Sooner or later the ACC glue encounters shearing which breaks the bond - Hence the etch parts pop off. Now I know what you're going to ask - well, why don't they use a different glue ? The assemblers assemble the model. They are trained to use the ACC glue as that's what 100% of the model is assembled with. Now if you switch to canopy cement for the walkways, It is much more difficult to attach such a large piece & hold it until it dries enough to not pop off on its own. This takes time. A very long time to set & longer to cure whereas ACC is pretty much done a few seconds after application. Multiply this by 3000-5000 pieces & that time really adds up. Fast.
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Post by John Sheridan on Feb 9, 2018 5:14:56 GMT -8
Boy everybody is a youtube model railroad reviewer all of a sudden these days... Yeah, because I just got into this hobby a few weeks ago, bought a video camera and started doing reviews all of a sudden for the first time just a couple of weeks ago. Now I am a YouTube model railroad reviewer. Who are you & what have you done with Al Mayo ?
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Post by Christian on Feb 9, 2018 8:10:45 GMT -8
Yeah, because I just got into this hobby a few weeks ago, bought a video camera and started doing reviews all of a sudden for the first time just a couple of weeks ago. Now I am a YouTube model railroad reviewer. Coming up on eleven years now with videos. Older with still photos. Yep, Monster's a newbie!
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Post by mvlandsw on Feb 11, 2018 11:35:20 GMT -8
Why are we still having these problems with etched running boards? There have been numerous posts stating that canopy cement or similar glues solve the problem. Is that not true, or don't the manufacturers read them?
In the video the gray color of the car appears to be too dark compared to the photo.
Are the grab irons all wire or are there some cast on or plastic ones?
Mark Vinski The problem is the glue. Your typical model is built using ACC cement. ACC is pretty strong stuff - however, the failing of ACC is that is has no shear strength. At the factory the model is assembled (we're not talking about 2 or 3 but thousands. ). It is QA'd, & placed in the box. Typically during shipping, the model encounters a wide variety of temperatures (Shipping container, destination, etc). Well, in these wide variances in temperature, the plastic & metal etch expand & contract - both at different rates. Sooner or later the ACC glue encounters shearing which breaks the bond - Hence the etch parts pop off. Now I know what you're going to ask - well, why don't they use a different glue ? The assemblers assemble the model. They are trained to use the ACC glue as that's what 100% of the model is assembled with. Now if you switch to canopy cement for the walkways, It is much more difficult to attach such a large piece & hold it until it dries enough to not pop off on its own. This takes time. A very long time to set & longer to cure whereas ACC is pretty much done a few seconds after application. Multiply this by 3000-5000 pieces & that time really adds up. Fast. It seems to me that it would be better to take more time at the factory than to have to deal with bad reviews, unhappy customers, and returns. That's like General Motors saying we'll weld the tires on your new car because that's how we put the rest of it together.
I would rather have the etched pieces packed separately so I could just attach them myself rather than having to deal with getting them off and cleaning up the CA first. After doing that I'd probably just not buy anymore.
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Post by grahamline on Feb 11, 2018 11:44:48 GMT -8
Or find another attachment method -- sliding tabs in a channel or something else that would cope with movement.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Feb 11, 2018 13:03:07 GMT -8
The problem is the glue. Your typical model is built using ACC cement. ACC is pretty strong stuff - however, the failing of ACC is that is has no shear strength. At the factory the model is assembled (we're not talking about 2 or 3 but thousands. ). It is QA'd, & placed in the box. Typically during shipping, the model encounters a wide variety of temperatures (Shipping container, destination, etc). Well, in these wide variances in temperature, the plastic & metal etch expand & contract - both at different rates. Sooner or later the ACC glue encounters shearing which breaks the bond - Hence the etch parts pop off. Now I know what you're going to ask - well, why don't they use a different glue ? The assemblers assemble the model. They are trained to use the ACC glue as that's what 100% of the model is assembled with. Now if you switch to canopy cement for the walkways, It is much more difficult to attach such a large piece & hold it until it dries enough to not pop off on its own. This takes time. A very long time to set & longer to cure whereas ACC is pretty much done a few seconds after application. Multiply this by 3000-5000 pieces & that time really adds up. Fast. It seems to me that it would be better to take more time at the factory than to have to deal with bad reviews, unhappy customers, and returns. That's like General Motors saying we'll weld the tires on your new car because that's how we put the rest of it together.
I would rather have the etched pieces packed separately so I could just attach them myself rather than having to deal with getting them off and cleaning up the CA first. After doing that I'd probably just not buy anymore.
People moaned about drilling and installing the grabs on Walthers passenger cars. So up went the price and now you have factory installed grabs, not that the price increase was all due to the grabs. But, people didn't want to do ANY assembly for a multitude of reasons. Now take John's post and do the math. If it takes 10 second to apply the etched roof walk with CA and 20 minutes with some other cement. The factory spent just under 14 hours to do 5,000 models. If it takes twenty minutes the factory would spend just under 1,700 hours putting the roof walk on those 5,000 models. BIG difference. So that $40 freight car model may now be $45 to $50. People not only don't want to do any assembly, they don't want to pay more either. Its a calculated risk by the importer and manufacturing partner that more cars will be fine upon delivery than damaged. One reason, when you try to strip a painted RTR model to finish in another paint scheme, you take a giant gamble at breaking and mangling parts because they are glued so completely as to not have an adhesive failure.
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Post by Brakie on Feb 11, 2018 13:15:47 GMT -8
Jim, I fully agree with your assessment..
Last week I received my shipment from MBK and the Atlas Trainman bulkhead had one of the bulkheads broken off.
I could have posted a rant about this car but, decided to fix it and that took less then five minutes to do.
Thanks to Walthers Goo the bulkhead is held firmly in place.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 11, 2018 13:28:01 GMT -8
I decided to fix it and that took less then five minutes to do. Thanks to Walthers Goo the bulkhead is held firmly in place. GOO d for you, ya stuck it to em!
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Post by Judge Doom on Feb 11, 2018 15:43:21 GMT -8
Or find another attachment method -- sliding tabs in a channel or something else that would cope with movement. That appears to be how most of the Rapido roofwalk on these hoppers is installed: the roofwalk along the center of the car isn't glued down at all, but small pegs on the insides of the etchings fit into holes in the roof around the roof hatches to keep it on. Only the ends appear to be glued down. Of course, this may not be the optimal solution long-term, as the roofwalk around the outside isn't glued or held down at all, and people grabbing the car in the middle near the roof might bend the roofwalk up. ------- As to the review, I'm sorry to say but you seemed in over your head there Al when it came to reviewing the details. Comparing the wrong prototypes, not knowing what this thing here or that metal thing is, it was a little cringe-inducing watching that.
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Feb 11, 2018 16:03:10 GMT -8
Or find another attachment method -- sliding tabs in a channel or something else that would cope with movement. That appears to be how most of the Rapido roofwalk on these hoppers is installed: the roofwalk along the center of the car isn't glued down at all, but small pegs on the insides of the etchings fit into holes in the roof around the roof hatches to keep it on. Only the ends appear to be glued down. Of course, this may not be the optimal solution long-term, as the roofwalk around the outside isn't glued or held down at all, and people grabbing the car in the middle near the roof might bend the roofwalk up. ------- As to the review, I'm sorry to say but you seemed in over your head there Al when it came to reviewing the details. Comparing the wrong prototypes, not knowing what this thing here or that metal thing is, it was a little cringe-inducing watching that. No, I was not over my head in the review. I used the same exact picture Rapido used to announce their release. Now, I do admit that I am not a CN modeler but I do really like those covered hoppers so that is why bought them and did the review. Most importantly I clearly stated how the cylindrical hoppers quality was. That does not take any previous knowledge about a particular railroad to know when QA was lacking. Also As I stated in the video I said that I assumed that Rapido did the correct placement of the brake cylinder even though it differed from the picture. It was not too easy to find a bunch of photos of that era and road cylindrical hoppers which would have made the comparison much easier.
Lastly, I still do not know what the boards on each side of the cylindrical hoppers are called nor what they were used for. But hey, I can't please everyone in my video reviews, weathering videos and regular layout videos. That's just the way it is. Thanks for watching and cringing thru the video though. [/font]
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Post by fcixdarrell on Feb 11, 2018 21:16:13 GMT -8
Lastly, I still do not know what the boards on each side of the cylindrical hoppers are called nor what they were used for. [/font][/quote] Glad you asked! They are called "tack boards", and they are used for posting information to the consignee (like contents) or regarding RR handling (Haz Mat placards could be attached, although cars assigned to a customer for loading hazardous materials had metal "placard holders" attached to the ends). There are also typically smaller tack boards on the 3800s as well, near the left end, when facing the side of the car. The smaller tack boards typically had routing cards on them, telling the RRs where the cars needed to go and who the customer is. Now, with the advent of everything being computerized, tack boards aren't utilized as often. The cards or sheets of cardboard with the info is "tacked" to the board with a stapler, hence the name. The 3800 project was a complex one due to there being two builders that Rapido replicated (Marine Industries and National Steel Car, they didn't do the Hawker Siddeley version), with different bodies (mainly number of side panels - 6 for MIL and 11 for NSC) and ends (different brake gear positions), which results in a number of versions, and then that was complicated by CN modifying the cars over the years by removing the top air reservoir on the NSC-built cars, which appears to be the only version Rapido did. Not all cars have had the top reservoir removed, so that leaves a lot of incorrect models. Outlet gates were replaced during various shopping programs, but it appears that Rapido chose to tool only the Toggle Lock outlet gates (although prototype cars were delivered with Toggle Lock and Wine outlet gates, depending on the order). My particular sample has the end frames (cages) applied with the ends sloping down, causing the running board to arch, leaving a gap between the running board supports and the etched running board. Some of the running board supports are also applied crookedly. The outlet gates were also applied so that they tilt down towards the rail, rather than being parallel. The decoration on the car I got (CN 369924) is great. Nice car, excellent prototype, but at the MSRP of $59.99 Cdn, I'd expect better assembly, in line with other offerings from other manufacturers at this price point. The result of moving the factory to a location with cheaper labor?
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Post by Judge Doom on Feb 12, 2018 3:33:47 GMT -8
No, I was not over my head in the review. I used the same exact picture Rapido used to announce their release. ...without researching if it was actually the same prototype as the car you got. That'd be like pulling up a photo of an SD70M-2, and comparing it to a model of an SD70ACe that looks the same, and wondering why there's all sorts of differences even though they're both clearly SD70's, and finally concluding at the end that maybe it's a different prototype, thereby invalidating the entire comparison just done in the review. (And nevermind different builders - you even pulled two photos of totally different oddball Vancouver Ironworks cars with the sloped ends that wasn't on the Rapido website - pointless as it was clearly a totally different prototype. There's no shortage of CN 3800 cuft covered hoppers in that series if one does a bit of searching). Al, Imma level with you bro - I'm sorry to say you were clearly in over your head when it came to that prototype comparison, but otherwise it was a decent review of the car and its pros and faults. You just need to brush up on your prototypes more before reviewing models in the future Al.
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Post by John Sheridan on Feb 12, 2018 5:12:18 GMT -8
Or find another attachment method -- sliding tabs in a channel or something else that would cope with movement. Manufacturers do this if it is possible. HOWEVER, there is no way to do this with the cylindrical walkways as it is all framework for the attach points. If they made slots and/or tabs for the model then you would have a bunch of people bitching about how unprototypical it looks for all the money they are paying, etc.
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Post by grahamline on Feb 12, 2018 9:36:01 GMT -8
Well, that part seems inevitable. ;-)
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Post by rapidotrains on Feb 12, 2018 16:15:51 GMT -8
The result of moving the factory to a location with cheaper labor? No. The factory move hasn't happened yet. That's one of the drawbacks with being so open about the behind the scenes processes. It can lead to the wrong conclusion. These cars ended up being a lot harder than we thought. The biggest challenge was shrinkage in the parts when pulling from the moulds. That lead to the issues at the car ends. And the truck holders, which we found were necessary to prevent the cages from getting destroyed in shipping, ended up being too hard to pull out. People are damaging their cars getting them out of the anti-damage packaging! For the next run, we will be making some adjustments to the tooling to address both of those issues. We have not heard many complaints about the gates not being straight. I'm sorry that your model had that problem. -Jason
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Post by catcliffedemon on Feb 12, 2018 18:37:25 GMT -8
The 3800 project was a complex one due to there being two builders that Rapido replicated (Marine Industries and National Steel Car, they didn't do the Hawker Siddeley version), with different bodies (mainly number of side panels - 6 for MIL and 11 for NSC) and ends (different brake gear positions), which results in a number of versions, and then that was complicated by CN modifying the cars over the years by removing the top air reservoir on the NSC-built cars, which appears to be the only version Rapido did. We designed the car with four different end braking arrangements to accurately replicate both versions seen on the NSC cars (with or without top reservoir), as well as the different styles seen on the MIL 3800 cu.ft. and 3850 cu.ft. cars. (which are basically oriented 180 degrees from each other give or take a few other details). Regards, -Rapido Gareth
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Post by cp6027 on Feb 12, 2018 19:53:07 GMT -8
...and ends (different brake gear positions), which results in a number of versions, and then that was complicated by CN modifying the cars over the years by removing the top air reservoir on the NSC-built cars, which appears to be the only version Rapido did. Not all cars have had the top reservoir removed, so that leaves a lot of incorrect models...
The B-ends of my CN delivery scheme NSC cars have two high-mounted brake reservoirs while my Procor "Flying P" NSC car only has one high-mounted brake reservoir. So Rapido has correctly done both versions.
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Post by cp6027 on Feb 12, 2018 20:13:04 GMT -8
The result of moving the factory to a location with cheaper labor? No. The factory move hasn't happened yet. That's one of the drawbacks with being so open about the behind the scenes processes. It can lead to the wrong conclusion. These cars ended up being a lot harder than we thought. The biggest challenge was shrinkage in the parts when pulling from the moulds. That lead to the issues at the car ends. And the truck holders, which we found were necessary to prevent the cages from getting destroyed in shipping, ended up being too hard to pull out. People are damaging their cars getting them out of the anti-damage packaging! For the next run, we will be making some adjustments to the tooling to address both of those issues. We have not heard many complaints about the gates not being straight. I'm sorry that your model had that problem. -Jason I will second any comments about the truck holders being difficult to pull out. Fortunately I managed without damage. Have you received any complaints about the new 100-ton trucks being warped? I have three of the 3800s and of the six trucks, three are warped with one sideframe rotated slightly in the vertical plane relative to the other sideframe. Because of this warp, only three of the wheels contact the rails and the cars derailed multiple times on their first trip around my layout. The warp is similar to how the old three-piece trucks that came with the original Intermountain kits behaved. I don't know if this is a tooling or cooling issue, or if it is somehow related to the tight truck holders. I wound up replacing the trucks on two of the 3800s but it took some effort because the Rapido trucks mount on a large center pin. I shaved the truck mounting pin off the body bolster with a chisel blade and then enlarged and tapped the mounting hole since Rapido uses a very small screw compared to other manufacturers. I popped the Rapido wheelsets into some Accurail sideframes (same ones I use to replace the troublesome Intermountain trucks) and attached them with a 2-56 screw. The Accurail trucks are not a perfect match but at least the cars run well now. It also should be noted that the artwork for the CN delivery scheme cars correctly showed the consolidated lube stencil for this 1975-built number series but it was somehow deleted during production. Simple enough to add on with a decal, however.
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