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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 6, 2018 6:40:32 GMT -8
Jim, What got me the most about the spinning fan is that the grill above it had such tiny holes that you couldn't even see the fan spin...even if the fan wasn't cast in black on a black chassis. At least in later runs (with non-spinning fans) they painted the fans gray so you could actually see them through the grill.
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Post by roadkill on Jul 6, 2018 9:19:06 GMT -8
The opening doors on the Proto 2000 models was one of those toy like details. Remember the brown box FA-2's with the rubber band off the rear flywheel to spin the cooling fan? And the movable radiator shutters that all opened randomly ?
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jul 6, 2018 9:29:48 GMT -8
The opening doors on the Proto 2000 models was one of those toy like details. Remember the brown box FA-2's with the rubber band off the rear flywheel to spin the cooling fan? And the movable radiator shutters that all opened randomly ? Those would be those "flapping in the wind" radiator shutters......Don't forget on the GP18 those coupled with the delrin grilles stuck out from the body like Dumbo's ears.
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Post by sd80mac on Jul 9, 2018 4:58:51 GMT -8
I think the dumping continued almost to the end (Walthers buyout), as I was buying Proto S1's, GP20s, SD45s at Trainworld for between 20-40$, around 2003-4. They had other stuff, but I only remember what I bought. Literally, stacks and stacks of the stuff on the counters. I remember seeing Trainworld ads in MR from the early and mid 2000s. P2K SD50s, SD60s, GP60s, GP30s, GP7s, GP9s, E units, all for $50 or less. I bought a few SD50s from them at the time IIRC.
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Post by drolsen on Jul 9, 2018 5:18:02 GMT -8
What I recall is that LL scaled back after the over productions and by the time the GP60's and SD50's and SD70I were coming out, they were in fewer numbers. I'm thinking that was between the late 1990's and when Walthers took over in 2005. That doesn't mean that cheap prices couldn't be found during that time frame but it wasn't as extreme as in the early 1990's - it was very extreme then. I worked part time at M.B. Klein in the fall of ‘96 between graduating from college and starting my full time job in DC (a few years before coming on active duty with the Army). As I’m sure you know, Klein’s had a close relationship with Life-Like, being just a few miles down the road at the old downtown store. I was there one evening, probably around October or November ‘96, when a load of 149 cases of E8s arrived from Life-Like, and I helped haul them upstarts to the store room. A few days later, they went up for sale for $29.99 each in Klein’s early mail order ad (which first appeared in RMc, if I recall correctly). I remember that being the first real example of Life-Like’s big push to dump excess models. Dave
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Post by riogrande on Jul 9, 2018 5:35:47 GMT -8
As I’m sure you know, Klein’s had a close relationship with Life-Like, being just a few miles down the road at the old downtown store. I was there one evening, probably around October or November ‘96, when a load of 149 cases of E8s arrived from Life-Like, and I helped haul them upstarts to the store room. A few days later, they went up for sale for $29.99 each in Klein’s early mail order ad (which first appeared in RMc, if I recall correctly). I remember that being the first real example of Life-Like’s big push to dump excess models. Dave Actually, I didn't know about a close relationship between LL and MBK; I don't actually recall when I first became aware of MBK - I think I started mail ordering from them around 2000 give or take, probably after. It just before I moved away from Indiana that I was talking to an LHS owner in Nashville (Leo) and he was complaining about too many P2K engines and dumping; maybe that was early-on and it went on for a few years. I do recall LL cutting back on productions numbers in the late 1990's but there must have been some fallout from the previous years for a while.
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Post by bar on Jul 9, 2018 6:04:48 GMT -8
I bought a P2K GP30 from Trainworld about 2000 for $30. While operating it derailed on a bridge and plunged to the floor. The front end was damaged but it hardly mattered; at that price they were disposable.
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Post by lvrr325 on Jul 9, 2018 9:45:53 GMT -8
Is it possible they overestimated the modeler market after making basically toys for so many years, that could be sold in huge quantity to non-hobby sellers like toy and department stores and leave them to take the loss on?
A couple of years ago even some recent LL sets turned up in Ollie's Outlet, they must have come up with a truckload somewhere. In the 1980s everyone had the low end stuff, they were in Penneys and Sears catalogs, I find tons with labels like Toys R Us and Two Guys and even K-mart stickers on them, I remember seeing them on the shelf in Hills and K-mart.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 9, 2018 10:07:15 GMT -8
I think part of the problem with LL was that they failed to see where the hobby was going. It went from a hobby that would sell the same models (in the same road names & numbers) for years and years (see: Athearn, Atlas, heck...themselves, etc.) to one that saw a huge initial buying spree of models and then after 6 months they just stop selling. I think that's why they ended up with a huge inventory of non-selling models that they then dumped.
Modelers want what is new. Old stuff sits around until the few modelers that didn't get one when it first came out find it.
In yon olden days, there wasn't much to buy. If you wanted to buy something and no one made what you really wanted, you bought something else. I did it when I was a kid in the early 1990's. I really wanted a new engine in NH but since there were no NH ones in the hobby shops at the time, I bought an Athearn ATSF GP7. It looked good in the blue and yellow (my hometown colors). There's no way I would buy something like that today; I'll wait for the NH model I want. But back then, you really didn't have a choice. You bought what was in stock or you got nothing. Heck, remember the ads in MR from AHC? "Our choice of road names" was the only option. You'll never see that today. And the Walthers 1991 catalog had far more Euro models than American ones.
That's where LL was coming from, and they got burned more than once by just assuming sales would last longer than they actually did so dumped them. In short, they overproduced.
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Post by bar on Jul 9, 2018 10:44:59 GMT -8
In the mid-1990s I saw a P2K E unit on sale at Toys R Us, Herald, Square, NYC.
While there may have been some over-production, I have no doubt it was strategic by the Chinese factory.
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Post by riogrande on Jul 9, 2018 11:20:58 GMT -8
Modelers want what is new. Old stuff sits around until the few modelers that didn't get one when it first came out find it. In yon olden days, there wasn't much to buy. If you wanted to buy something and no one made what you really wanted, you bought something else. I did it when I was a kid in the early 1990's. I really wanted a new engine in NH but since there were no NH ones in the hobby shops at the time, I bought an Athearn ATSF GP7. It looked good in the blue and yellow (my hometown colors). There's no way I would buy something like that today; I'll wait for the NH model I want. But back then, you really didn't have a choice. You bought what was in stock or you got nothing. Heck, remember the ads in MR from AHC? "Our choice of road names" was the only option. You'll never see that today. And the Walthers 1991 catalog had far more Euro models than American ones. That's where LL was coming from, and they got burned more than once by just assuming sales would last longer than they actually did so dumped them. In short, they overproduced. Hah hah. Yes I remember those days - we've come a long way baby - to quote an old cigarette ad. And then there is the really old stuff that vendors drag to every train show year after year and very little of it sell and some day it gotta go to the landfill.
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Post by bnsf971 on Jul 9, 2018 15:43:25 GMT -8
Modelers want what is new. Old stuff sits around until the few modelers that didn't get one when it first came out find it. In yon olden days, there wasn't much to buy. If you wanted to buy something and no one made what you really wanted, you bought something else. I did it when I was a kid in the early 1990's. I really wanted a new engine in NH but since there were no NH ones in the hobby shops at the time, I bought an Athearn ATSF GP7. It looked good in the blue and yellow (my hometown colors). There's no way I would buy something like that today; I'll wait for the NH model I want. But back then, you really didn't have a choice. You bought what was in stock or you got nothing. Heck, remember the ads in MR from AHC? "Our choice of road names" was the only option. You'll never see that today. And the Walthers 1991 catalog had far more Euro models than American ones. That's where LL was coming from, and they got burned more than once by just assuming sales would last longer than they actually did so dumped them. In short, they overproduced. And then there is the really old stuff that vendors drag to every train show year after year and very little of it sell and some day it gotta go to the landfill. Quite a bit of that stuff would actually sell, if the vendor hadn't based his price of the 1985 Athearn GP35 he's selling on the current ad for a 2016 MTH GP35.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jul 9, 2018 16:07:39 GMT -8
And then there is the really old stuff that vendors drag to every train show year after year and very little of it sell and some day it gotta go to the landfill. Quite a bit of that stuff would actually sell, if the vendor hadn't based his price of the 1985 Athearn GP35 he's selling on the current ad for a 2016 MTH GP35. Oh how true. If you want to see people without a clue of a reasonable price, you don't even have to go a train show....just dial up e-Bay.
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Post by fr8kar on Jul 9, 2018 16:48:32 GMT -8
A local hobby shop has yellow box Atlas SD24 and GP40 models for Master series prices. He'll never change the price and they will never sell.
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Post by riogrande on Jul 9, 2018 16:56:01 GMT -8
Quite a bit of that stuff would actually sell, if the vendor hadn't based his price of the 1985 Athearn GP35 he's selling on the current ad for a 2016 MTH GP35. The stuff I'm thinking of are table after table if the trainset type stuff like old Tyco, Life Like, Bachmann and similar, much of it for a few dollars each but far more than there is any demand for. Of course old Athearn has limited value and uf over priced will just sit. Vendors apparently would prefer to just haul the stuff back and forth endlessly.
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Post by stottman on Jul 10, 2018 3:03:41 GMT -8
As others have noted, we CAN thank LL Proto 2000 for the current state of the hobby.
They were the 1st to really offer "super detailed" stuff with seperate wire grabs, etc.
Also, their "dumping at discounted prices" business model is what led to the current "Pre-Order" system.
Remember, outside of the "high end" Kato / Roco produced items, most "quality" HO stuff was still made in the US with heavy steel tooling, with new products being years apart... Anyone remember going into a well stocked hobby shop 25 years ago, and seeing the walls of Athearn and MDC?
With a "contracted" run of products done in China, LL, the "Manufacturer" (importer) had to guess how much product to make. A far different system then having a physical factory downstairs where you can produce what you need according to orders. So LL had to "make" enough product to make the run worthwhile, as well as last awhile. Obviously that didn't work, and other companies that rode their coattails had to learn from LifeLike's mistakes...
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Post by bnsf971 on Jul 10, 2018 3:07:22 GMT -8
I think a large part of the "dumping" was a change to the tax laws, to where they would have had to pay a substantial amount of tax on any warehoused items and unsold merchandise.
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Post by John Sheridan on Jul 10, 2018 4:19:53 GMT -8
As others have noted, we CAN thank LL Proto 2000 for the current state of the hobby. They were the 1st to really offer "super detailed" stuff with seperate wire grabs, etc. Actually, the entire hobby was heading in that direction regardless. Pk2 was one of the first to add detail - although not Prototypically correct details. Nope. What lead to the current pre-order system was ready to run models. The added costs to assemble the model moved pricing to a point where you could not afford to simply churn out models for an indefinite period of time. What makes you think that injection models are made with anything but steel tooling ? The only thing that has changed in the industry is the grade of steel used. Why ? Because the process changed. Injection molds are rarely machine tooled these days. The molds are created by computer-controlled burning process. The added benefit is that this process bumps up the level of detail considerably as you can burn fine lines into the molds. Do the molds last as long ? Hint - they are not designed to because they are not designed to crank out 100,000 units before expiring. They are designed for lower amounts of runs as your typical order for a run is anywhere from 2000 to 6000 units (depending on the model). If a tool wears out, you simply call-up the CAD file on the computer & burn another one. As for the "well stocked hobby shop" & walls of product, the ready-to-run business model & the internets has changed this game considerably (see above). There are still shops out there that carry a huge amount of inventory of course. However, most of these shops have a store-front & an a on-line presence to keep product & money moving. Hardly. There is very little "guessing" going on considering your typical run amount is based on the number of pre-orders you receive. If the minimums are not reached, you can kick the project further down the road until you get your number. You can also cancel the project with minimum amount of monies invested before the project goes to tool. That's the beauty of pre-order - you get a pretty good idea of the minimum amount of units you need to have created before the order is placed. You then negotiate a run with the manufacturer for x amount of units to be produced. The price per-unit is set by the run amount. The higher the number of units the better the discount to the importer. An added benefit is that you can get low number of runs for a particular paint scheme (sometimes as low as 50 units). Pad printing has become so advanced that you can have multiple road numbers of unit x made for minimal cost.
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Post by roadkill on Jul 10, 2018 6:51:14 GMT -8
Quite a bit of that stuff would actually sell, if the vendor hadn't based his price of the 1985 Athearn GP35 he's selling on the current ad for a 2016 MTH GP35. The stuff I'm thinking of are table after table if the trainset type stuff like old Tyco, Life Like, Bachmann and similar, much of it for a few dollars each but far more than there is any demand for. Of course old Athearn has limited value and uf over priced will just sit. Vendors apparently would prefer to just haul the stuff back and forth endlessly. My favorite being the legendary "rare" Tyco green Western Maryland flatcar... which Tyco must have made by the MILLIONS !!!
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Tom
Full Member
Posts: 230
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Post by Tom on Jul 10, 2018 7:31:26 GMT -8
As others have noted, we CAN thank LL Proto 2000 for the current state of the hobby. They were the 1st to really offer "super detailed" stuff with seperate wire grabs, etc. Strangely, Bachmann Spectrum was first in 1988 (44-tonner, K4, GP30), the BL-2 (the first P2K product), was introduced in 1989.
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Post by bar on Jul 10, 2018 8:44:11 GMT -8
As others have noted, we CAN thank LL Proto 2000 for the current state of the hobby. They were the 1st to really offer "super detailed" stuff with seperate wire grabs, etc. Strangely, Bachmann Spectrum was first in 1988 (44-tonner, K4, GP30), the BL-2 (the first P2K product), was introduced in 1989. Technically, Life-Like used plastic grabs. To their credit, they refined them as the line developed. Too bad they don't offer them separately as I'd like to upgrade my brown box P2K BL2s.
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Post by stottman on Jul 10, 2018 10:20:51 GMT -8
As others have noted, we CAN thank LL Proto 2000 for the current state of the hobby. They were the 1st to really offer "super detailed" stuff with seperate wire grabs, etc. Actually, the entire hobby was heading in that direction regardless. Pk2 was one of the first to add detail - although not Prototypically correct details. Nope. What lead to the current pre-order system was ready to run models. The added costs to assemble the model moved pricing to a point where you could not afford to simply churn out models for an indefinite period of time. What makes you think that injection models are made with anything but steel tooling ? The only thing that has changed in the industry is the grade of steel used. Why ? Because the process changed. Injection molds are rarely machine tooled these days. The molds are created by computer-controlled burning process. The added benefit is that this process bumps up the level of detail considerably as you can burn fine lines into the molds. Do the molds last as long ? Hint - they are not designed to because they are not designed to crank out 100,000 units before expiring. They are designed for lower amounts of runs as your typical order for a run is anywhere from 2000 to 6000 units (depending on the model). If a tool wears out, you simply call-up the CAD file on the computer & burn another one. As for the "well stocked hobby shop" & walls of product, the ready-to-run business model & the internets has changed this game considerably (see above). There are still shops out there that carry a huge amount of inventory of course. However, most of these shops have a store-front & an a on-line presence to keep product & money moving. Hardly. There is very little "guessing" going on considering your typical run amount is based on the number of pre-orders you receive. If the minimums are not reached, you can kick the project further down the road until you get your number. You can also cancel the project with minimum amount of monies invested before the project goes to tool. That's the beauty of pre-order - you get a pretty good idea of the minimum amount of units you need to have created before the order is placed. You then negotiate a run with the manufacturer for x amount of units to be produced. The price per-unit is set by the run amount. The higher the number of units the better the discount to the importer. An added benefit is that you can get low number of runs for a particular paint scheme (sometimes as low as 50 units). Pad printing has become so advanced that you can have multiple road numbers of unit x made for minimal cost. Thanks for disagreeing with everything I said, then making the exact same argument. :S And most companies have said they have moved to aluminum molds that are EDM machined using CAD. That is why they are able to offer so many minor variations. Vs 30 years ago, when it was all done in steel using pantograph.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 11, 2018 18:02:07 GMT -8
This really has turned out to be an interesting discussion with some good points brought up. However, I honestly don't feel that the operating doors on the HO units were intended to be "toy like". From my understanding with a gentleman who speakse with manufacturer reps at train shows, LL wanted to have an edge over the other manufacturers by offering an additional detail that they did not, while keeping the locomotives affordable. Of course, it backfired with prototype modelers. I agree to the points regarding the doors on the E-units being "sprung shut". However, it is easy to bend or remove the spring. For my E-units, I plan to have one of them with the cab doors partially open (it would look prototypical when at the service yard or station stops). IMHO, the "open-door" effect looks best on hood units. As always there was the "Catch-22". The E-unit's bulldog nose was not properly contoured, the plastic grabs & rails on all units were very fragile, windshield wipers oversized, lift rings also broke easily, and the axle gear issue. Of course, that was a turnoff to a number of modelers. I am biased because LL listened to feedback and produced a number of models in Southeastern railroad schemes (ACL, FEC, L&N RF&P, SAL, SCL). Me and several friends of mine really appreciated this. It was a pleasant surprise (OK, shock ) that RF&P E-units were done. The prototypes were regulars on the ACL/SAL/SCL's NY to FL passenger runs. I have a sizeable fleet of LL units that I'm gradually upgrading with details and DCC-Sound (Lok and TCS). The dummy E B-units have A LOT of space for robust speakers. BTW: Details West #2206 wire formed Eye Bolts work nicely as lift rings. Also, any door pins protruding above the cab can be carefully filed down flush with the roof. Atlantic Coast Line E8, with DCC installed by a good friend of mine. Will be re-decaled into Seaboard Coast Line, details added, and realistically weathered. Florida East Coast E7 (still new-in-the-box). I know that I'll have to clean out the factory grease and re-lube it. To play it safe, I'll replace the axles anyway. RF&P E8. Although I wish LL had produced it the the 1960's scheme, I'm not going to complain. She will be helping to haul my version of The Champion.CB&Q SD-9. As for this dandy, I'm guilty of buying just because of its looks! Neat combination of the boxy body styling and the blackbird paint scheme reminds of the 60's-era American muscle cars. Funny irony is that I've had modelers offer to buy this from me! Yet, BLI's version is very attractive and is equipped with decent sound.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jul 11, 2018 18:12:07 GMT -8
This really has turned out to be an interesting discussion with some good points brought up. However, I honestly don't feel that the operating doors on the HO units were intended to be "toy like". From my understanding with a gentleman who speakse with manufacturer reps at train shows, LL wanted to have an edge over the other manufacturers by offering an additional detail that they did not, while keeping the locomotives affordable. Of course, it backfired with prototype modelers. I agree to the points regarding the doors on the E-units being "sprung shut". However, it is easy to bend or remove the spring. For my E-units, I plan to have one of them with the cab doors partially open (it would look prototypical when at the service yard or station stops). IMHO, the "open-door" effect looks best on hood units. As always there was the "Catch-22. The E-unit's bulldog nose was not properly contoured, the plastic grabs & rails on all units were very fragile, windshield wipers oversized, and lift rings also broke easily, and the axle gear issue. Of course, that was a turnoff to a number of modelers. I am biased because LL listened to feedback produced a number of models in Southeastern railroad schemes (ACL, SBD, RF&P, SCL, L&N). Me and several friends of mine really appreciated this. It was a pleasant surprise (OK, shock) that RF&P E-units were done as the prototypes were regulars on the ACL/SAL/SCL's NY to FL passenger runs. I have a sizeable fleet of LL units that I'm gradually upgrading with details and DCC-Sound (Lok and TCS). The dummy E B-units have A LOT of space for robust speakers. BTW: Details West #2206 wire formed Eye Bolts work nicely as lift rings. Also, any door pins protruding above the cab can be carefully filed down flush with the roof. Atlantic Coast Line E8, with DCC installed by a good friend of mine. Will be re-decaled into Seaboard Coast Line.Florida East Coast E7 (still new-in-the-box). I know that I'll have to clean out the factory grease and re-lube it. To play it safe, I'll replace the axles anyway. RF&P E8. Although I wish LL had produced it the the 1960's scheme, I'm not going to complain. She will be helping to haul my version of The Champion. CB&Q SD-9. This one, I'm guilty of buying just because of its looks! Neat combination of the boxy body styling and the blackbird paint scheme reminds of the 60's-era American muscle cars. Funny irony is that I've had modelers offer to buy this from me! Yet, BLI's version is very attractive and is equipped with decent sound. The six axle units didn't have the split axle problem or not in great numbers. It was the four axle GP's who's axles cracked whether used or brand new in the box. Test the E's before replacing the axles. Plus, the Athearn axle gear that is correct for the GP's is not correct for the SD's or E's. Oh, and the stripes and roof are too gray and the stripes are too long on the Q SD9 model. Life-Like boogered up the Q SD7, 9's and the GP7's.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 11, 2018 18:37:04 GMT -8
Thanks! Yep, I do understand the info regarding the gears but my mindset is that If I'm tearing a unit apart, I might as well take the extra step to avoid a potential problem down the road. There is a correct axle for the E-units that is currently out of stock at Walthers, but will supposedly become available again. Re: The SD9. Yes, the gray-tone is too dark and stripes are off. Yet, a number of modelers want this CB&Q version. On Ebay, blackbird SD9's are fetching $90 to $100! The "China Red" SD9's have been fetching in the $60 range. I think that I paid just a little over $50 for my blackbird some years back. My guess is that the BLI version is priced above the budgets of some potential customers, so they're gravitating towards the LL version. But again, that's just my guess. The six axle units didn't have the split axle problem or not in great numbers. It was the four axle GP's who's axles cracked whether used or brand new in the box. Test the E's before replacing the axles. Plus, the Athearn axle gear that is correct for the GP's is not correct for the SD's or E's. Oh, and the stripes and roof are too gray and the stripes are too long on the Q SD9 model. Life-Like boogered up the Q SD7, 9's and the GP7's.
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Post by lvrr325 on Jul 11, 2018 21:34:56 GMT -8
Quite a bit of that stuff would actually sell, if the vendor hadn't based his price of the 1985 Athearn GP35 he's selling on the current ad for a 2016 MTH GP35. Oh how true. If you want to see people without a clue of a reasonable price, you don't even have to go a train show....just dial up e-Bay. eBay is strange, a thing can sell 12 times in a price range and I put one on and it's the kiss of death. Heck I have a brand new just came out Atlas C424 on for $25 less than the next guy and it's a fat no sale. My screw up, should have bought more Reading and less D&H. On the other hand I actually got a couple bucks more for the D-L C425 than other vendors. Then I had a Bachmann GP30 on for so long I forgot it was listed and a guy tried to buy it for the full list price three months after I sold it for almost 50% off at a show. But blue box Athearn are about a $40 engine average, if it's NOS, less used, with the usual variation for type and roadname. Some earlier collectible pieces bring more. I usually take those to shows for that crowd. I never looked to see if anyone was crazy with them. Even those MTH GP35s tanked, I had opportunity to buy some closeout and looked on eBay and they were selling for less than my price was going to be.
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Post by trainguy99 on Jul 12, 2018 3:46:56 GMT -8
Some guys who "sell" at shows seem to price things high on purpose. Maybe so that they have a reason to come to the next show?
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Post by riogrande on Jul 12, 2018 6:10:21 GMT -8
Some guys who "sell" at shows seem to price things high on purpose. Maybe so that they have a reason to come to the next show? What, like the guy in the Virginia/Maryland area who has a long display of shelves and the train product boxes have tons of shelf-wear from many many many trips back and forth? I thought the idea was to make money, not sit on merchandise for years and years. Some of the vendors at shows look like they are sick of their lives; they really don't look like this is their idea of a good time.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Jul 12, 2018 13:06:41 GMT -8
Once you've worked with a Broadway Limited E8/9, you'll never look at another Proto E8/9 again.
But to be fair to Proto from the start with Life-Like at least they got the 36" cooling fans sized correctly.
There is no ultimate E-unit yet. Proto is still second and BLI is barely first. But, BLI got the nose and roof pretty good which catches your eye before the fan issue.
To be really anal you do a John Tyson and merge the Highliner nose and rear to the BLI unit and replace the fans with Cannon. You use the winterization hatches from a Proto E8. The problem with this solution is it gets expensive fast, since Highliner shells are now the new gold standard for price and rarity.
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Post by markfj on Jul 13, 2018 4:29:08 GMT -8
Once you've worked with a Broadway Limited E8/9, you'll never look at another Proto E8/9 again. But to be fair to Proto from the start with Life-Like at least they got the 36" cooling fans sized correctly. There is no ultimate E-unit yet. Proto is still second and BLI is barely first. But, BLI got the nose and roof pretty good which catches your eye before the fan issue. To be really anal you do a John Tyson and merge the Highliner nose and rear to the BLI unit and replace the fans with Cannon. You use the winterization hatches from a Proto E8. The problem with this solution is it gets expensive fast, since Highliner shells are now the new gold standard for price and rarity. So true, once I saw some of the construction photos and effort required to make a good E8, I sold my Proto models. The E8 isn’t a “must have” for my roster, so I can wait for someone like Rapido to step up and do it right. That being said, I have much appreciation and respect for the design and operation of Proto models. They were and still are a good choice for someone looking for detailed models at a reasonable cost.
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