Life-Like Corp and Proto 2000

[tony]

Does anyone know the person(s) that spearheaded the effort at Life-like to create the Proto 2000 products?

[riogrande]

I seem to recall there was a Larry Grub? Memory is fuzzy.

[gmpullman]

Interesting reading here:


Life-Like Wiki

According to son Jay Kramer, workers at the factory discovered the insulating properties of the foam tunnels could be used to keep their lunches hot or cold. Soon after, the company began producing foam ice chest coolers under the Lifoam name in 1954.


They used expanded foam tunnels to keep their lunches cool and came up with the foam cooler idea? Cool!

Regards, Ed

[Paul Cutler III]

Atlas used to have a history of Sanda Kan on their old website (but I can't find it). It started out with the P2K BL2 and how the Chinese engineer who designed it is the one that convinced Life-Like (who had been looking for a Chinese company to make their regular toy line of trains) to try high-end models. This effort turned into Sanda Kan.

[bar]

What happened, per usual business practices there, was Chinese production of a clone of an existing product (Athearn) that was then dumped on the U.S. market at ridiculously low prices, in order to establish the brand. The traditional end game was to either drive existing producers out of business, or acquire them, but the hobby market was not strong enough and Life-Like itself ended up being bought.

I will never understand why Athearn did not defend its intellectual property rights, unless it had no actionable claim.

[Paul Cutler III]

bar,
Well, Irv Athearn was still alive at the time. Maybe he didn't care? After all, he still made everything in California back then and generally still beat everyone on price. Also, the HO market has always been a more cooperative effort than the more litigious markets in other scales.

And while the P2K drives were an Athearn copy, they weren't the same. They were made of better materials to tighter tolerances in a better design. The competition forced Athearn (once Irv died) to up the quality to compete, which has only improved the hobby IMHO.

I disagree with your assessment of P2K being "dumped on the U.S. market at ridiculously low prices, in order to establish the brand". I have a 1991 Walthers Catalog, and the only P2K model therein was the BL2 at $60-$65. By comparison, Athearn locos were $20-$35, Stewarts were $40-$70, Walthers E60CP was $60, Bowser H16-44 $60, Model Power diesels were $27-$30, Bachmann's were $24-$50, and other Life-Like diesels were $22-$42.

The P2K BL2 was the 2nd most expensive HO plastic diesel in the Walthers book in 1991 behind only the Bowser Phase IV U25B at $70, and tied with the Walthers E60CP and the Bowser H16-44. The P2K BL2 was two to three times the price of most Athearn locos.

And also, let me point out that P2K wasn't acquired by Walthers until 2005, some 15 years after the first P2K BL2 hit the market.

[riogrande]

Word.

[12bridge]

I think we can thank Proto for being the originals for setting the then new standard for detailing, paving the way for what we have today.

But they sure as hell did overproduce and dump oodles of product out there. Trainworld would have mountains of engines for as little as 20$ each.

[Deleted]

Well some of those "dumped" items are now very very difficult to find.

Proto 2000 GP-30's in some roadnames command a substantial premium price if/when they turn up, and regardless of the split gear issues.

The exquisitely detailed RS-27, in new in box condition, can command premium prices over and above retail back in the day. They run great, have great, flexible, handrails, and are among the finer models ever done in HO imo.  It was one of the last P2K items produced, or at least engineered, prior to the takeover.

[Judge Doom]

Jul 3, 2018 12:22:29 GMT -8 bar said:

What happened, per usual business practices there, was Chinese production of a clone of an existing product (Athearn) that was then dumped on the U.S. market at ridiculously low prices, in order to establish the brand. The traditional end game was to either drive existing producers out of business, or acquire them, but the hobby market was not strong enough and Life-Like itself ended up being bought.

I will never understand why Athearn did not defend its intellectual property rights, unless it had no actionable claim.

I think that's overreaching more than a little bit.

Life-Like already had its own line of model trains, track and structures at that point, it seems with the Proto 2000 offterings they just branched into the high-end high-detailed market that was probably only available through brass at the time. One could say Bachmann had a similar idea when it decided to try its hand at the "Spectrum" line (also made in Hong Kong/China), which although not high-end was a number of steps above its usual toy-train pancake-motor offerings. Looking back, it's not like Athearn really tried to compete or go high-end either, sticking with its extensive tried-and-true Blue Box line until the late 90's when they finally dipped their foot in the high-end pool with the Genesis SD70I/75I. Maybe the 1000-pound gorilla in the room at the time (Athearn) didn't really care that much so long as they weren't copying the exact Athearn model and selling under their own brand.

As for cloning tooling, it probably wasn't that big of a deal back then as it is in today's litigious society, and harder to keep track of when a lot of the manufacturers were contracting others manufacturers to make models for them (Atlas/Kato/Roco for example) and some of that tooling would later show up under other brands or being made for other manufacturers (the original Atlas GP40 tooling made by Roco later becoming the Con-Cor GP40, E-R Models making FP7's from the old Atlas tooling, etc). Or maybe some simply didn't care or couldn't be bothered if a factory in China made gearboxes that were very close in design (everyone's gearboxes nowadays are the same basic worm-driven sandwiched gear-tower design, albeit slightly different from brand to brand). Lots of tooling was being cloned off Athearn and others back in the 60's/70's/80's - the Globe F-unit's various iterations from different manufacturers, Athearn GP9 turning to the Cox/Walthers GP9M, various freight cars, there was even a brass manufacturer (Gem?) that cloned the Bachmann GP40 in brass form, warts and all.

[Paul Cutler III]

12bridge,
LL totally overproduced for years. Jeez, I was buying undec. PA's and E8's for my club at $40 ea. at Springfield. It got to the point where people expected to find bargain bins full of P2K's, and I think that affected sales at full (or close to) MSRP. Why buy a full MSRP (or even 20% off) when you know that the same model will be less than 50% MSRP in the not-to-distant future?

FPA-4,
The most ridiculous prices for LL I ever saw was after the first run of DL-109's came out. Rumor was that LL would not be running these again ever, so eBay prices went through the roof. IIRC, a NH one went for $350. Not bad for a $70 loco when new.

Then the Hobby Gallery in Conn. paid LL for a custom run of NH and ATSF units and the eBay prices dropped like a rock. After a couple more runs (even one by Walthers), now you can find DL's any time you want.

Judge,
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't the original gold box Protos have their drives made in the USA? I thought I heard that. It's why they were always shipped separated in the box. The Chinese would make the shell and put it in the box. When they arrived in the US, LL dropped in the drive. But I'm a little foggy on that one...I might be wrong.

[Judge Doom]

The overproduction might have been on par for how the hobby operated back then in the pre-make-to-order days, i.e. hobby shops and dealers that still carried lots of inventory. As long as it sold to the dealers, Life-Like probably didn't care how long it sat on their shelves or if the dealers bought too much and had to deep discount.

As to the drives on early releases being made in North America I've never heard that one. It seems unlikely to me as the drive would still require a fair amount of assembly and testing (cheaper to do both plus production at the factory in China and package the models once, and not have to have the manufacturer stateside open up every single box and add a drive in later), and they would have surely mentioned it on the box (my earliest ones, the GP18's, are all "Made in China"). They also continued with the 2-slot box for years into the early-mid 2000's when it would have been impractical to make any in the US. Maybe reading through some early P2K BL2, GP18 or FA2 reviews in MR or RMC might yield some more info.

Perhaps they figured with the higher amount of detail, it would be best to package both shell and drive separately to avoid heavy drive+shell combos sliding around breaking off details while in transit from China. This might also explain why the (lighter) dummy FA2/FB2's and dummy B-unit E's usually came in a smaller one-slot box, while the powered FA2's and E's came in a two-slot box during the same time period. Hmmm.

[bnsf971]

I'm pretty sure the reason the shell was shipped separately from the drive was it could be considered a "kit" or "parts" to drastically reduce any taxes that needed to be paid on them.

[bar]

It was also later that LL further separated the Proto brand with the less expensive Proto 1000 line.I bought a fleet of F3s for $20 each from Trainworld, they are excellent runners to this day.

[lvrr325]

LL certainly did dump a ton of product early on. At what I think was a Greenberg show here in 1994 I bought a BL2 for $20, four or five GP18s for $25 and one E8 for $30 or $35. All were well below retail at the time, ridiculously so, I think by then Athearn engines were around $42.50. And those brown box engines are so common, I bought an NOS B&O GP18 just last year for $15. NYS&W and B&M were the only ones done in fairly low numbers where they would bring stupid money on eBay.

As late as 2001 you could still find excess inventory get clearanced out at various distributors; I have an ACL SW9 somewhere I bought simply for the amusement of the 666 number for around $27.50.


The two slot box was just that era's attempt at preserving details. They will bounce around and smash stuff off when they're all in one piece in there.

[fmilhaupt]

Jul 2, 2018 10:32:56 GMT -8 riogrande said:

I seem to recall there was a Larry Grub? Memory is fuzzy.

Yep- Larry Grubb (Not to be confused with BLI's Bob Grubba) was one of the product guys at Life-Like. Larry Grubb and Nolan Knolls were my historical society's contacts there.

[riogrande]

lvrr, I remember it well. I hobby shop owner in Nashville Indiana was complaining about it (RIP). It was around 1992/93 I believe, when the dumping was going on.

fmilhaupt, thanks. The name popped into my head but a little foggy. I do remember LL diesels during the 1990's were on a continuous improvement program and whoever was developing them was listening to customers and each time an engine would be produced, they would reflect improvements.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

Jul 4, 2018 7:09:11 GMT -8 riogrande said:

lvrr, I remember it well. I hobby shop owner in Nashville Indiana was complaining about it (RIP). It was around 1992/93 I believe, when the dumping was going on.

fmilhaupt, thanks. The name popped into my head but a little foggy. I do remember LL diesels during the 1990's were on a continuous improvement program and whoever was developing them was listening to customers and each time an engine would be produced, they would reflect improvements.

This hobby store owner wasn't the only one complaining about Life-Like's clearance methods. 

One very well established hobby shop that I frequented in the Chicago area told me a story about the "back door" at LL. I can't remember if it was Tuesday, Thursday or whatever but certain dealers knew to show up with cash in hand and pick up over produced inventory for far less than distributor price. Some of this was bought by actual stores and some by the basement dealers. One of the reason you could go to the train show in Wheaton, Illinois and find one guy selling Proto engines for less than distributor net, let alone dealer price. Lots of hard feeling towards Life-Like by the trade. That is why when Walthers bought Life-Like's train products, dealers breathed easier and certain dealers saw the cash cow become extinct. I don't know if this story is fact, fiction or a combination of the two.

[12bridge]

I think the dumping continued almost to the end (Walthers buyout), as I was buying Proto S1's, GP20s, SD45s at Trainworld for between 20-40$,  around 2003-4. They had other stuff, but I only remember what I bought. Literally, stacks and stacks of the stuff on the counters.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

Jul 4, 2018 6:38:13 GMT -8 lvrr325 said:

The two slot box was just that era's attempt at preserving details. They will bounce around and smash stuff off when they're all in one piece in there.

I think the two part system is still the best. You don't have the weight of the drive pushing on the shell and fragile details. The clam shell which used by many right now has a bad habit of rubbing the paint off. The screw method to a hunk of masonite that Athearn used on the F and FP45's wasn't bad either, but getting the screws out could be an issue. Plus putting the model in and out of the screw box results in stripped Phillips head screws.

[riogrande]

Jul 4, 2018 7:25:01 GMT -8 12bridge said:

I think the dumping continued almost to the end (Walthers buyout), as I was buying Proto S1's, GP20s, SD45s at Trainworld for between 20-40$,  around 2003-4. They had other stuff, but I only remember what I bought. Literally, stacks and stacks of the stuff on the counters.

What I recall is that LL scaled back after the over productions and by the time the GP60's and SD50's and SD70I were coming out, they were in fewer numbers. I'm thinking that was between the late 1990's and when Walthers took over in 2005.

That doesn't mean that cheap prices couldn't be found during that time frame but it wasn't as extreme as in the early 1990's - it was very extreme then.

From the wiki:

In 2005, Walthers purchased Life-Like from Lifoam Industries. With this purchase Walthers acquired the Proto Lines that have become the backbone of their locomotive and rolling stock segments.

[grahamline]

There may be something to the two-box kit idea. Tariffs on imported toys were, at one time, much higher than on hobby items. AHM was involved in such a case in (maybe) the mid-60s involving Roco Minitanks. Separating the body shell and power chassis could well have kicked Life-Like's locomotives into "hobby kit" status.

[riogrande]

Interesting comments about the chassis packed separate from the shell.

[tornado]

I have a pair of the P2K Alco RS-27's, Penn Central. Exquisite in all respects.

[antoniofp45]

One feature that was rather unique on the LLP2K's was the operational cab doors. Modeling the SCL, the door feature was appealing to me. Way back in the day, I saw many an SCL local, hauled by Geeps, U18B's, and switchers, with their cab doors either jammed open or flapping along. Hot, sticky southeastern summers are grueling. I appreciate being able to model this feature!


Having grown up with WIDE BODY Athearn Blue Box units and "Eye squinting Atlas FP7's", it surprised me that some prototype modelers that I knew were in a mini-uproar! "What's with the doors?"......"Nah, that's goofy!" ......"The door's are the wrong size!"..."Windshield wipers are wrong!" ...."Gimmicky!". I felt like I was the only one that said "Very Cool!!!!" Of course, LL heard the complaints and future units came with sealed doors.

I did understand the issue with the E7/E8 noses as photographic comparisons were shown with other Bulldog shells from other manufacturers. LL could have done a bit better.

But overall, LL was successful in producing units that many of us found appealing and still enjoy.

[riogrande]

My SDs have the opening doors. I didn't realize the latter versions did away with that. The only annoying thing about the opening cab is the Hing pins that protruded through the roof.

[Judge Doom]

Jul 5, 2018 15:35:29 GMT -8 riogrande said:

My SDs have the opening doors. I didn't realize the latter versions did away with that. The only annoying thing about the opening cab is the Hing pins that protruded through the roof.

It was around the LL Phase 1 GP9's (after the GP18's, GP9 Ph3, GP7's, GP9 Ph2, GP20's) that they finally did away with this feature on the earlier Geeps and molded the doors as part of the cab, but earlier newly tooled releases like the GP30's were done with the door cast as part of the cab from the get-go. I think Walthers did revise the GP20 tooling later to eliminate it when they re-released them.

The Geep cab doors were neat as they could be propped open like many prototypes often did, even if they were a tad thick. The working cab doors on the FA1's and F-unit however were a bit kludgy (because of how the mechanism was designed) and could have benefited from some sort of clip at the top inside the shell to keep the sprung doors open (or just cast as part of the shell, as IMHO there's no point in working doors if the sprung doors can't be propped open).

Funny enough, the True Line Trains MP units also had working sprung cab doors, and they were just as pointless.

[Paul Cutler III]

Judge,
The annoying thing about the operating doors on the P2K E's and FA's was that you couldn't actually open them more than a whisker because the big metal chassis was right behind them. And, IIRC, the P2K E-unit nose door opened out when it should open in. And why the springs? With such strong springs you couldn't prop the door open without making something to jam in there. Just a weird decision overall on P2K's part.

[roadkill]

Jul 4, 2018 19:46:02 GMT -8 tornado said:

I have a pair of the P2K Alco RS-27's, Penn Central. Exquisite in all respects.

One of my all-time favorite models.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

The opening doors on the Proto 2000 models was one of those toy like details. Remember the brown box FA-2's with the rubber band off the rear flywheel to spin the cooling fan?

While the concept is not without merit, the execution by Life-Like was poor. The gap between the door and the door frame was huge. On the hood units the pin protruding out of the roof was not good. Lets not forget the chasms cast into the roof of the brown box GP18 for the operating? sun shades. Oh and the flapping in the wind radiator shutters on the FA/FB and GP18. All toy like details on otherwise pretty good scale models. Even with Dumbo's ear like radiator grilles on the GP18, it was still better than the blue box Athearn GP7/9.