Let's Talk About Thrall All-Door Cars (pics & links)

[surlyknuckle]

With apologies to the OP of the thread on schemes and reruns on existing tooling, we got a little side-tracked talking about all-door boxcars. So here's some stuff I can share on them. I've always had a "thing" for the Thrall all-door boxcar. An early piece of model railroad equipment in my life was a white Lignum all-door car, sold by Bev Bell painted on the Life-Like tooling. It was a visually attractive car to me, I think it set me back $5 (two weeks of allowance) when I was about 7 years old. In those "early days" of my model railroad experience, I picked up several of the old Life Like all-door cars...I remember rostering ones in Delson Lumber and GB&W. I learned to look out for them while railfanning, but they were pretty scarce by the 90s and I only remember seeing one (a blue ATCO lettered one)

Thanks to user csx3305 for providing a wonderful link to a 2000 article published by RMJ on Thrall all-door boxcars. That article no doubt was the major source of information to Walthers on their many releases of that car in HO. Most of the paint schemes in the photos from the article have been produced by Walthers over the years. Savor it here:

magazine.trainlife.com/rmj_2000_7/. (you'll have to scroll down to get to the boxcars, but the other subject matter is quite nice too)

Here are some proto-photos I've collected on Flickr:


A MacMillan Bloedel lettered car. Despite having different reporting marks and lessors, this red and white scheme has appeared on several different all-door boxcars. It may have been a demo or promotional scheme that was offered with whoever was leasing the car's lettering/info.
canadian lumber car by Richard May, on Flickr

Canfor's second paint scheme also make use of the red and white. These also had a large, white, rectangle painted on the roof that had "Canfor" painted in it.
all door car by Richard May, on Flickr

Older Canfor car
thrall door boxcar seen at Tacoma by Richard May, on Flickr

A pair of attractive Bennett Lumber cars from Idaho. I'm wondering if one car is a repaint...quite a note worthy difference in the hue of the blue paint.
a pair of all door boxcars by Richard May, on Flickr


My personal favorite: White Lignum from British Columbia:
thrall door boxcar by Richard May, on Flickr

Or maybe you prefer more of a tangerine flavor? They didn't weather well either way...
a rather grimey and repainted all door boxcar by Richard May, on Flickr


The tiny Roscoe Snyder and Pacific was located in Texas, but leased these cars to ATCO, which seemed to be centralized in the Ozarks. I remember seeing a blue ATCO prototype as a kid, but I haven't found any pics of them yet.
Thrall Boxcar by emd, on Flickr

I can't embed this one, but here's a former D&NE car in Potlatch's later paint scheme. These cars wound up on the St Maries River Railroad (STMA). You can also patch over your Atlas FMC 5503s LP&N printing error by making them STMA cars as well...
flic.kr/p/HDQVSB

You don't really think of Ashley Drew and Northern as a large user of these cars, but they seemed to have a sizeable fleet. It appears some were built new for the ADN, while others were bought second hand. Many of the cars in this group became the FURX lettered cars still running today.
ADN Boxcar 4740 by Robert Thomson, on Flickr


ADN went shopping: A patched car in former GP service.
Untitled by marksd45, on Flickr

A cherry-red Simpson car. Note the "bulkhead" on the top-end of the car. One of the many subtle variations these cars had between owners.
different kind of all door boxcar by Richard May, on Flickr

British Columbia Forest Products is bringing grunge back. Note the NACC logo. The car was photographed in Kentucky...others in NY. You can run these cars almost anywhere.
BCFX Boxcar 841 by Robert Thomson, on Flickr



A link to my Flickr gallery if you want to look at larger versions of these photos, plus all the ones I didn't share (there's more)
www.flickr.com/photos/fr8engineer/galleries/72157685435240680/with/7651740218/


Up next: Some model photos.

[surlyknuckle]

I've been stashing away Walthers all-door cars with the intention of working on them as I feel the urge. I've "processed" a few of the cars, but most are still straight-out of the box without any work done to them. Video evidence seems to indicate you probably wouldn't see more than two of these cars on one train, if you even saw one. ]So much for being able to string them all together in a giant line of coolness.

A Potlatch car. I don't believe these got STMA'd until the mid 80s, but I will be patching mine because I have railfanned the STMA...so I'll stretch my rules a little.
D&NE 124 by Freight Engineer, on Flickr

RSP: This is the newer Walthers edition of the car. The factory grabs are nice, and I appreciate the finer end ladders. This one got replacement stirrups since they still come with those thick plastic ones.
RSP 20277 by Freight Engineer, on Flickr

Here's an upgraded Walthers car from an older release. I kept the side ladders, but I installed wire grabs, Plano cross over platforms, hi-tech air hoses, Kadee brake wheel with brake chain, metal wheels, and new stirrups. I'd love to find info on these SCL cars, I've never seen a photo either. HTCX leased all-door cars to a few customers, but I find it odd a large railroad like SCL decided to go with this type of lease arrangement. I wonder if the intended purpose of these cars was short lived.
HTCX 397 by Freight Engineer, on Flickr

Another HTCX leaser, lettered for St. Regis. This one got the same treatment as the SCL car. Code 88 wheels, etched details, brake chain, etc. I need to go-over some of the added on details with a closer match paint-wise. You can't really see it with a naked eye on the layout, only when looking at photos like this.
HTCX 370 by Freight Engineer, on Flickr

View of the B end of the car.
HTCX 370 -End by Freight Engineer, on Flickr

Big fan of this OP&E car. The Bohemia Country slogan adds a bit of local pride.
OP&E 2001 by Freight Engineer, on Flickr

I was excited when Walthers announced the Lignum white car several years ago. I could finally have an updated version of a childhood favorite!
LUNX 80026 by Freight Engineer, on Flickr

Of course, you can't be picking favorites now...
LUNX 80012 by Freight Engineer, on Flickr

Next: Closing

[surlyknuckle]

A few years ago, I caught these all-door cars rolling into Richmond's ACCA yard on CSX.

I'm not 100%, but I believe these cars are ADN > FURX > NOKL

NOKL 504738 by Freight Engineer, on Flickr

NOLK 504753 by Freight Engineer, on Flickr

I'm not sure where they were coming from, or what they were hauling. They may still be carrying lumber products: A pair of NOKL all-door cars (not confirmed if same ones) was spotted prior to this at Jessup MD where they would have been going to a lumber industry. I had never seen all-door cars before or after that occurance at Jessup.

Hope you've enjoyed, if nothing else getting to see some cool pics of these neat cars.

[riogrande]

I've checked photo's and video's of the D&RGW and seen singles of the All-door box cars so have bought examples of the ones I specifically identified (Weyerhaeuser green, Georgia Pacific blue and Masonite tan). I don't know if any of those many "north of the border" schemes traveled thru the Rockies east-west or not. I happened on a yellow Brooks Scanlon for very cheap at a charity shop so it went home with me.

[slowfreight]

Any idea on what St. Regis did with its cars? I've got one that I considered purging from the fleet, because it said "paper company" on it somewhere and I only want them for lumber.

Meanwhile, I've got an AD&N and a Louisiana Pacific, to interchange to my C&NW layout via ICG. I'm hoping the Louisiana Pacific can weather down to something terrible-looking in my era, else why get a white car

Back in my misspent youth, I worked for First Union and those thrall door cars, mostly NOKL, became a favorite. Unsurprisingly, the number one thing they went bad-order for was doors. I was told, the shippers who used them absolutely loved them, and everyone else hated them. As an aside, 99.99% of all NOKL-stenciled cars are owned by First Union. I think they might have had one of their own.

[12bridge]

I always thought the All Door cars were neat.   It seems to be a type of car that disappeared REALLY quick.   I imagine the implementation of the centerbeam really did them in.    Seems like they were essentially all but gone by the early 1980's short of a handful.   Here is the page for them from the 1970 Car & Loco Cyclopedia.  




It seems Walthers has 3 "generations" of All Door.   The original Walthers,  the upgraded Walthers with the nicer ladders, and the former Life Like car, which the dead giveaway for those is the pegs on the side that hold the floor in.   I have seen all 3 versions in the same box, so be careful before you buy them.   The upgraded Walthers version is now a Proto line car if I recall.  

I do wish we would get a nice model of the Evans Side Sliders as well.  It seems these hung around just a touch longer then the original Thrall version.   I must say, It would be a neat kitbash to have one with opening doors for use at the lumberyard.. 


(So nice to see a topic here that is NOT Mfg. bashing for once...)

[bdhicks]

McCloud converted some all-door boxcars to double-door boxcars, as mentioned on this page: www.trainweb.org/mccloudrails/Equipment/AllDoorBoxcars.html

I remember Dave Hussey made a model of one that I saw at prototype modelers meet.

[surlyknuckle]

Feb 15, 2019 10:00:17 GMT -8 slowfreight said:

Any idea on what St. Regis did with its cars? I've got one that I considered purging from the fleet, because it said "paper company" on it somewhere and I only want them for lumber.

It looks like with St. Regis, they may have been in paper service. They may have been thinking "outside" the box with regards to loading paper rolls with an all-door boxcar. It seems along the similar lines of the B&O having special boxcars with an offset door for easier coil loading.

There is a St. Regis lumber mill in Washington state, and there is a St. Regis in Montana but they don't appear to be related to the paper company.

[surlyknuckle]

Paul, that seems to be what I picked up on as well- centerbeams have virtually no moving parts and all-door cars have many, all of which need servicing and are accident prone.

I've worked out of two terminals that have lumber customers. Anecdotally, it seems like boxcars are favored to centerbeams 4:1 for lumber haulage at both customers that dealt with lumber. I might spot one centerbeam but have 4 or 5 boxcars ranging from ABOX combo door cars, to TBOX and DWC 60' hi-cubes with double plug doors.

[thunderhawk]

The Bennett cars were for a mill on the MILW's Washington, Idaho and Montana Ry subsidiary so a MILW modeler would like some of those for sure. 186 cars in the series iirc.

[csx3305]

Feb 15, 2019 12:34:42 GMT -8 12bridge said:

I always thought the All Door cars were neat.   It seems to be a type of car that disappeared REALLY quick.   I imagine the implementation of the centerbeam really did them in.    Seems like they were essentially all but gone by the early 1980's short of a handful.

A few groups of them lasted into the mid-90's at least. But they were definitely a minority by that point. As you wondered, the larger centerbeams were the death knell of the Thrall doors, which were really an inefficient design, they had a high tare-weight-to-payload ratio. And I've heard and read anecdotes that, as the Thrall door cars aged, the doors got harder to open and were more prone to jamming.


As an aside, does anybody remember the Bennett Lumber car that got stuffed and mounted in a town square (IIRC) to use as a pavilion/stage? That has to be my favorite use of a Thrall Door, but I can't recall the location. I vividly remember seeing a pic of the car, both center doors pulled aside like curtains, with a five piece rock band playing inside. If ever there was vehicle well suited to conversion into an outdoor stage, the Thrall Door is certainly it.

[grahamline]

Feb 15, 2019 15:13:13 GMT -8 surlyknuckle said:

...- centerbeams have virtually no moving parts and all-door cars have many ...

Unless you count the ratcheted winches/lading anchor cables.

[edwardsutorik]

As opposed to the doors, seems to me the problem with Thrall-doors is that there's nothing stopping load shift. And when it does, it ain't fun to fix.

With a centerbeam, you've got gravity. And, of course, the tie downs.


Ed

[Judge Doom]

Feb 15, 2019 12:34:42 GMT -8 12bridge said:

It seems Walthers has 3 "generations" of All Door.   The original Walthers,  the upgraded Walthers with the nicer ladders, and the former Life Like car, which the dead giveaway for those is the pegs on the side that hold the floor in.   I have seen all 3 versions in the same box, so be careful before you buy them.   The upgraded Walthers version is now a Proto line car if I recall.  

4 generations if you want to get specific: the two Walthers offerings, the Life-Like car (toy train line, plastic wheels, friction-bearing talgo trucks, etc), and the upgraded Life-Like car (Proto 1000 line, metal wheelsets, roller-bearing trucks, plastic clone knuckle couplers, body-mounted coupler pockets). IIRC, the LL car is too short though (something like 56' versus 60'), but for a while the P1K models were plentiful and cheap at hobby shops, especially when they were being blown out. The paint/lettering was nice too (lots of door instructions on each door)

A neat feature of some of the prototype Canfor cars is they had the Canfor logo in big lettering on the roof. You can make it out on the car in the second photo in this thread.

[csx3305]

Feb 15, 2019 17:17:44 GMT -8 csx3305 said:

As an aside, does anybody remember the Bennett Lumber car that got stuffed and mounted in a town square (IIRC) to use as a pavilion/stage? That has to be my favorite use of a Thrall Door, but I can't recall the location. I vividly remember seeing a pic of the car, both center doors pulled aside like curtains, with a five piece rock band playing inside. If ever there was vehicle well suited to conversion into an outdoor stage, the Thrall Door is certainly it.

Nevermind, I found it. BENX 182. Potlatch, Idaho, although that is not the photo I remember (obviously):

www.wimryhpg.com/Projects/benx_182_project.html

[Deleted]

A few years ago I found one each of the white lignum and gbw cars at a train show.
I had those when i was a kid and they hold a special place in my heart. I still run them, and now
I'm going to get them out of there box and run them together all week! I rarely see the walthers
version as second hand models at shows. I wish they would re release them, they sure are interesting cars.

[thunderhawk]

Bumping this up as I see new Proto Thrall All Doors are expected late next month.

No Bennett cars in this batch however and I cannot find one from an earlier run, so that is disappointing.

Weyerhauser, Potlach and BCIT cars were common, that I know of anyway, out west on the MILW so those will work.

[valenciajim]

This is a great thread; I really appreciate all of the information and photos.

[thunderhawk]

Thanks to an anonymous tip a Bennett car is on it's way.

[Deleted]

I wonder if they upgraded these cars...as I see they upgraded the price.

[slowfreight]

Someday, my two will bubble to the top of the stack for weathering. I will most certainly do a better job than I would have a dozen years ago when I bought them.

[sd80mac]

I have one of the Walther's Proto All-Door Boxes from a few years ago. It's a nice car, maybe not Tangent nice, but plenty nice for me, and much better looking than the older Walthers versions.

[edwardsutorik]

The Walthers car has been cleaned up. I think the last batch was the first run of these. I've got one, and the ladders are much improved, and so is the crossover on the ends. Nothing radical, but definitely an improvement. I've got a bunch of the older ones, and replacing the ladders was always on the list. So now I don't have to buy new ones, remove old ones, and match the paint.

Ed

[ChessieFan1978]

ICG had them and Walthers offered singles and 2 packs

Trains by Matthew Fisher, on Flickr

[packer]

I’m still holding onto some of my lifelike ones because I haven’t had any luck finding a Walther’s proto version (like Bennett lumber). WI&M wound up going to BN from MILW at some point.

[stevewagner]

I still have one of the Life-Like Thrall-Door cars that I bought used: someone had done a good paint and decal job on it, lettering it for Walter Rich's Delaware & Otsego with FJG reporting marks. I have seven from earlier runs by Walthers, as follows. As primarily a D&H fan, naturally I have one of the black cars with billboard Cooperstown & Charlotte Valley name but D&H reporting marks. Weyerhaeuser because the first full-sized car I saw wore that scheme and because I'd always liked that firm's ads featuring reforestation in the National Geographic and knew it still had at least one timber-carrying railroad. Boise-Cascade / MD&W because my family crossed into Canada from International Falls, MN (the real life inspiration for Frostbite Falls on the Rocky & Bullwinkle show). St. Regis because of its historical connection with the Adirondacks. Armstrong because it's a major industry in Lancaster, PA, the historic city in Pennsylvania Dutch country. Masonite because the paint scheme is truly elegant and I've used the product. Canfor red & white because I wanted at least one Canadian car and thought it very attractive. For the most part I avoid getting many models of locos and cars more recent than 1976 or 1980, so nearly all Thrall-door cars fit one of my major "eras".

Lumber and building supply companies in New York and New England are still receiving a lot of freight by rail. Since I moved to Massachusetts in 1968, it hasn't been at all unusual for a lumberyard to have products from six or more different producers in stock at one time. Schnitzler's Lumber -- the name means wood carver in German and is also a tribute to a great Austrian writer -- on my layout follows that pattern. I've assembled numerous packs of wrapped lumber marked for several forest products companies from Jaeger kits. I learned the hard way not to leave the ones with green printing in direct sunlight, which turns the lettering and logos blue!

I am tempted by some in the current run: US Plywood (1967), Georgia Pacific (1972), even though it's paint scheme is the same as what my St. Regis car has, British Columbia Rwy. with the dogwood flower -- my Uncle Johnny had a dogwood tree in his big yard (1973), plus yellow Canfor (1974) and Potlatch (1978), which I think attractive But some forthcoming D&H models will take precedence.

[railandsail]

Feb 15, 2019 12:34:42 GMT -8 12bridge said:

I always thought the All Door cars were neat.   It seems to be a type of car that disappeared REALLY quick.   I imagine the implementation of the centerbeam really did them in.    Seems like they were essentially all but gone by the early 1980's short of a handful.   Here is the page for them from the 1970 Car & Loco Cyclopedia.  
 

I do wish we would get a nice model of the Evans Side Sliders as well.  It seems these hung around just a touch longer then the original Thrall version.   I must say, It would be a neat kitbash to have one with opening doors for use at the lumberyard.. 

Have you ever run across any kit-bashes that show open doors and loading?

[cr9617]

I happened to be watching this video from October 1996 yesterday and noticed one in the train.  I didn't think they were still floating around then.

[sp8299]

Feb 3, 2021 15:29:30 GMT -8 cr9617 said:

I happened to be watching this video from October 1996 yesterday and noticed one in the train.  I didn't think they were still floating around then.

I've seen and shot NOKL examples within the past three years in trains passing through the former SP West Colton Yard.  Not many, but still some out there.

[lvrr325]

I picked up a couple because watching some of the available videos they turned up in Sayre, PA. Not sure where they were headed but IIRC they were in the Auburn Branch side of the yard so maybe somewhere up that way.