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Post by redvdub1 on Feb 2, 2020 11:07:15 GMT -8
Is anyone aware of any studies on the various electroless nickel platings re durability and traction for model locomotives? I have searched for years and haven't found anything. I wouldn't be surprised if most manufacturer's did not
specifically request a "type" of electroless nickel but, rather, just asked for "electroless nickel" without specifying any of the above variables. And, if they did ask, would they be checking to see that they got what they asked for???
E.g nickel-phosphorous vs. nickel-boron, high versus low phos, effects of thickness (e.g. .01 to 0.1 mm), bright versus satin versus matte???
redvdub1
George T. Galyon
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 2, 2020 12:34:33 GMT -8
I read an interesting Wikipedia article on the process: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroless_nickel_platingFor new production items, I suspect it's not worth it. If you choose nickel-silver (or stainless) for wheels and tires, the color is already correct, and done. Only downside of using nickel-silver (and stainless) would be higher material cost and machining cost. Upside is not paying the plating costs, not worrying whether the plater screwed up, and not worrying about when/if the plating wears off. For an item that's already made, it might be a great idea, though. But you may have to disassemble parts to prepare for the plating. I surely wouldn't yearn for removing and replacing driver tires. Ed |
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Post by Mark R. on Feb 2, 2020 16:04:56 GMT -8
I remember the old Model Power engines that had nickel plated brass wheels (my Sharks for example). Didn't seem it took too many "miles" before the plating was worn through ending up with silver wheels with brass treads.
Mark.
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Post by jonklein611 on Feb 3, 2020 4:34:45 GMT -8
I remember the old Model Power engines that had nickel plated brass wheels (my Sharks for example). Didn't seem it took too many "miles" before the plating was worn through ending up with silver wheels with brass treads. Mark. Same for the old sintered athearn wheels. |
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Post by Mark R. on Feb 3, 2020 12:47:25 GMT -8
I remember the old Model Power engines that had nickel plated brass wheels (my Sharks for example). Didn't seem it took too many "miles" before the plating was worn through ending up with silver wheels with brass treads. Mark. Same for the old sintered athearn wheels. The old Athearn wheels weren't plated .... they were just that - sintered iron. Mark. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2020 13:58:02 GMT -8
I am under the impression that wheels with plating worn off to bare brass aren't really a concern regarding power pickup. There may be a little bit more track dirt created as a result of running bare brass wheels on nickel silver track, but it is not normally a problem with my layout. I think the plating is more for cosmetic reasons than for long term electrical contact purposes.
That said, W&R specified stainless steel driver tires and valve gear on many of their Samhongsa-built steam locomotives. I've seen W&R steam engines that do evidence some rod wear after many many hours of running (on a well-known layout) but the driver tires still looked good.
Jack
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Post by atsfgp7u on Feb 9, 2020 17:26:37 GMT -8
Clean brass is more conductive than clean nickel silver, but the oxide of brass is not very conductive, while the oxide of nickel silver is still conductive.
So it is way more than cosmetic.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2020 19:38:45 GMT -8
Yeah, well...
As a kid in the 1970's I had an entire layout built with my father, with Atlas brass flextrack, and Mantua-Tyco diesels that had brass wheels (no nickel plating at all ever). As long as you ran the trains every fall and winter, they ran just fine. In spring and summer I mostly played outside (baseball etc.)
There was no problem at all with oxidizing brass wheels. And engines that sat in my father's basement for 30 years, without running, still ran.
I have the Mantua-Tyco trolley still, and it runs as well as it ever did with that motor, at least 45 years old.
So for me, concerns about power pickup relative to pure and simple plating wear appear to be overstated. I did have some issues with earlier Athearn Genesis F units making too much track dirt due to electrical arcing between wheels and track, but I do not know if that had anything specifically to do with plating versus plating being gone.
Finally there are people who have run brass engines till the point that all plating was gone, and they say they operate just fine without it.
Jack
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 9, 2020 21:00:00 GMT -8
Clean brass is more conductive than clean nickel silver, but the oxide of brass is not very conductive, while the oxide of nickel silver is still conductive. So it is way more than cosmetic. Source? Please be informed that there is no oxide of brass or of nickel silver. So your credibility is not flying very high, here. Am I the only one on this forum who took chemistry in college? Or even high school? No. Really. Have any of you taken a chemistry class? I agree that you don't have to have taken a chemistry class to play with trains. Or even to have valuable insights on related matters. I have. There IS NO OXIDE OF BRASS. THERE IS NO OXIDE OF NICKEL SILVER. If you have never even taken a class in chemistry, could you PLEASE stop making pronouncement on this matter. Unless, of course, you really do know what you are talking about. Ed |
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Feb 10, 2020 2:28:42 GMT -8
Clean brass is more conductive than clean nickel silver, but the oxide of brass is not very conductive, while the oxide of nickel silver is still conductive. So it is way more than cosmetic. Source? Please be informed that there is no oxide of brass or of nickel silver. So your credibility is not flying very high, here. Am I the only one on this forum who took chemistry in college? Or even high school? No. Really. Have any of you taken a chemistry class? I agree that you don't have to have taken a chemistry class to play with trains. Or even to have valuable insights on related matters. I have. There IS NO OXIDE OF BRASS. THERE IS NO OXIDE OF NICKEL SILVER. If you have never even taken a class in chemistry, could you PLEASE stop making pronouncement on this matter. Unless, of course, you really do know what you are talking about. Ed Really? Quite a few very credible sites would beg to differ, such as this one: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3587402/ |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 10, 2020 9:03:18 GMT -8
Source? Please be informed that there is no oxide of brass or of nickel silver. So your credibility is not flying very high, here. Am I the only one on this forum who took chemistry in college? Or even high school? No. Really. Have any of you taken a chemistry class? I agree that you don't have to have taken a chemistry class to play with trains. Or even to have valuable insights on related matters. I have. There IS NO OXIDE OF BRASS. THERE IS NO OXIDE OF NICKEL SILVER. If you have never even taken a class in chemistry, could you PLEASE stop making pronouncement on this matter. Unless, of course, you really do know what you are talking about. Ed Really? Quite a few very credible sites would beg to differ, such as this one: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3587402/Yes, really. I read the article. Note in the Highlights and the Abstract the reference to "duplex oxides". Plural. That would be the frequently mentioned zinc oxide (ZnO) and cuprous oxide (Cu2O). There was talk about "oxides on brass". Plural. I didn't find "brass oxide". Brass does oxidize. That's because the elemental metals oxidize. But there is no brass oxide. There is zinc oxide and copper oxide. Steel "oxidizes". But there is no steel oxide. There is iron oxide. But no steel oxide. Getting into the chemistry a bit, does the carbon also oxidize at the same time? If it did not, then steel would only partially "oxidize". Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 10, 2020 10:26:22 GMT -8
Clean brass is more conductive than clean nickel silver, but the oxide of brass is not very conductive, while the oxide of nickel silver is still conductive. So it is way more than cosmetic. Also. The oxides of the metals in these alloys are ALL non-conductive. It IS possible that, if you were to allow/force oxide growth on railtops made of the two alloys, trains would make better electrical contact on the NS rails. This would have nothing to do with the conductivity of the oxides. Which don't. Conduct. Ed |
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Post by atsfgp7u on Feb 13, 2020 9:02:46 GMT -8
Hi Ed,
Thanks for correcting me. I read that when nickel silver oxidises it was more conductive that brass that had oxidised in Wikipedia. After reading your response, I did some more investigation, as nickel silver has completely replaced brass for model railroad track and loco wheels, there needs to be a reason for that change. What appears to be the reason is that nickle silver is more resistance to oxidation than brass.
Dave
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2020 9:23:51 GMT -8
Having lived through the changeover from brass track to nickel silver, and having worked in train stores at that time, I think the change was more about cosmetic appearance. NS looks more like "real" track than brass colored track. I think for those who actually run their trains, the brass track stays oxide-free enough that it can function adequately. I remember my rail surfaces as a kid, and up into my 20's, were shiny brass from all the running.
It has been my perception that perhaps nickel silver track attracts a bit less dirt, but that could also be due to the all-metal wheelsets and more modern rail profiles (like Kato's track, for example, which brand new out of the box is very smooth and also quieter than Walthers/Shinohara and Atlas). On my layout, which has Atlas, Walthers/Shinohara, and Kato track (with some Peco turnouts in the Atlas/Shinohara portions), the Kato track generally attracts less dirt buildup.
Jack
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 13, 2020 10:51:52 GMT -8
Dave,
I think you are right about the higher oxidation resistance of NS. Due, of course, by adding nickel to the alloy. Also in there might be formation of sulfides. I should ask my official chemist (son-in-law) about that, someday.
Another possibility could be that the oxides that develop on brass are "stronger" than those on NS. So the weight of the contact breaks through the oxides easier for the NS. BIG maybe, I think. But still.....
Jack,
The proper color of NS is what drew me to it, back in the olden days. I had/have the same feeling about wheels and tires. All my Hobbytown locos have brass wheels--not a good look.
There has been talk about how scratches allow dirt to stick easier. Maybe so, maybe not. But there's certainly no benefit to scratches. Perhaps the top of Kato rail is smoother. Or maybe you're seeing a result of a higher nickel content.
Ed
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Post by brakie on Feb 17, 2020 2:21:08 GMT -8
One thing I've notice. Back we used brass track and brass wheels our locomotives would pull more cars weigh to RP20.1. I also notice less tractive force with NS wheels and track pulling cars weigh to RP20.1 back then too..
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Post by jonklein611 on Feb 17, 2020 4:09:16 GMT -8
One thing I've notice. Back we used brass track and brass wheels our locomotives would pull more cars weigh to RP20.1. I also notice less tractive force with NS wheels and track pulling cars weigh to RP20.1 back then too.. Just turn the sanders on and the slip goes away... |
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Post by brakie on Feb 17, 2020 12:55:28 GMT -8
One thing I've notice. Back we used brass track and brass wheels our locomotives would pull more cars weigh to RP20.1. I also notice less tractive force with NS wheels and track pulling cars weigh to RP20.1 back then too.. Just turn the sanders on and the slip goes away... Happily locomotives weigh more today then the average engine did back in the 60-exception being the Hobbytown RS3 that could has we use to say, pull the wallpaper off the wall. As a example my BB SW7 couldn't budge 9 passenger cars weigh to RP20.1 My Atlas/Roco S4 had no problem pulling them. |
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Post by tdspeedracer on Feb 17, 2020 13:56:57 GMT -8
There was a book many moons ago on repowering/upgrading Athearn locos put out by the publisher of Rail Model Journal, or Model RR'ing. In the back there was a chart that showed the numbers as to improved pulling power after replacing the factory wheel sets with those from NWSL and Jaybee. Off the top of my head, it seems like Jaybee increased pulling power more, but have no idea as to why.
Trevor
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