Starting planning stages of layout, helix or no?

[stevef45]

So I inherited my uncles house and after having a lot of mold remediation done and now electrical/plumbing getting done the basement will be able to be used again. Im having the basement finished and will have a layout going along the wall like a shelf layout. Not sure if I want to go single or double level. If I go two levels, do I go long incline or a helix? How many levels do you design into a helix to go from one section to the next?

[cvsne]

Steve,

Congrats on the new layout space.

I think it's always preferable to avoid a helix when and if that's practical.

For what it's worth, you're asking the wrong questions at this phase in the design process. You're focused on tactical issues, when you really need to address some strategic issues first.

I did a blog post a couple of years ago when I was at the same point that you are - see centralvermontrailway.blogspot.com/2017/12/the-design-questions-we-should-be-asking.html


Or look at any of Lance Mindheim's posts on layout design on his two blogs.

Good luck!

[riogrande]

How big (dimensions) is the layout space?

If I go two levels, do I go long incline or a helix?

The answer is yes. =p


I'm doing both. The mainline will loose altitude and eventually disappear under the main yard where the staging will be. At the other end of the yard will be the helix to bring back up to the year.

How many levels do you design into a helix to go from one section to the next?

The number of levels or turns depends on the separation of the levels the helix is connecting, as well as the radius and the grade. In my case, I'll be going up 12 inches and my radius will be 34 inches, but I haven't crunched the numbers to see how many levels there will be; I'm guessing 3. It also depends on where the track enters and exits the helix.

[edwardsutorik]

The number crunching is pretty easy:

A 34" radius yields a circle of 213" circumference.

3 circles yields 639"

a 639" run for a 12" rise yields 1.9% grade (100 x 12" divided by 639")


Ed

[jonklein611]

Check to see if your local library has this:

kalmbachhobbystore.com/product/book/12434

[Paul Cutler III]

A helix is a solution to a problem, one of several solutions to pick from. I would design what you want first, then see if a helix is something you need. A helix has several drawbacks: they use a lot of track and consume a lot of real estate. There's no way to put one in the "display" part of the layout without it looking like a roller coaster or the warp core from the USS Enterprise D. And if you derail in the helix, good luck.

Long ramps, OTOH, can have scenery, they don't have to use up so much room (in width), and will more likely be accessible.

[riogrande]

@ Ed. Aye, just haven't bothered yet. Lot's of grade calculatoins I'll have to do on the nolix part but I'll do as I go, just like the last layout.

[slowfreight]

Some things to ponder, as I sound like a broken record...my engineer tendencies coming through here...

My time is my tightest resource by far. I don't model what I can't see, and I only build what I really want to model. So think first about what you want to model.

Yards eat space. Don't build one if you don't plan to use it. The same is true for a helix.

Atlas flex sitting on N scale cork (my preference) runs about $2/foot. So that helix edwardsutorik described will run you about $110 in track alone if it's single-track. And it'll eat space and take lots of time to build.

Consider for a second how much layout you'll have time to finish. Is a double-deck monster too much? Consider how shallow you can keep your layout. The closer to a shelf vs. a table, you need less scenery.

Imagine that double-deck is the way to go. You need to climb the distance between levels, plus the thickness of your level. That's why when I decided to go double-deck I built a thin upper deck, so that I didn't have to climb as high. My upper benchwork is 1" thick and rock solid for what I do, but I kept it shallow, only going 14" deep in one key area. I also left just under 7" between decks. Because I kept the upper deck overhang to a minimum (usually 8" or less) I can keep the levels closer together. For my single-story industrial buildings, I'm not hurting on the lower level for clearance.

I used ramps between levels. From the old single level section, I went down to the new lower level and up to the new upper level, sharing the pain equally. The main ramp is hidden behind a short backdrop and some building flats.

Next, how long a train do you want to run? And how much power? I can drag 20 cars behind 2 units up my 3.5% grade. I won't need to run longer than that. I wish I could have had a 2% grade, but this works for everything but those blasted NJT Comet sleds.

In the end a ramp takes less real estate, is faster to build, and easier to measure out when you're deciding how steep to make it. You can mock it up and test it quickly, changing what you need. Unless you have a spare dormer to hide the helix, can you find a better way to use the train room?

[stevef45]

Lots of stuff I didn't even think about that you have all brought up now. LOL. Still drawing things out and figuring track plan. I do like the idea of the ramp since it can get scenery added to it.

[llxlocomotives]

Helix is a very complex solution. The track resistance is as complex as well. Based on some grade and train length experiments I have been doing, you can likely achieve 2.5 cars per drive axle with a 4% grade on a straight incline. Adding curves and turnouts will move that expectation to a lower grade value. It really depends on how much length is available to get up the grade. In a lot of cases a helix is the best option.

[marknycfan]

This is not a simple yes or no question...Whew!

[Deleted]

Before answering this question, I would say don't design so big a layout you can never finish it without a small army of friends to help you. Maybe start and then mostly finish a portion...before finalizing the helix.

I have had friends who bit off more than they could chew on by themselves and never got anywhere near finished--it was too much for them. One even had a helix in his basement, but being a perfectionist about his woodwork, well he never got very far on the layout. He was a truck driver, now retired. He charged over $30,000 in brass models--always said "Just step up. Use the plastic". Never paid it off, then got a bad Harley Davidson habit and sold trains to buy bikes.

It's now more than 25 years later and his helix has been ripped out. He only ballasted (to a perfect N&W knife edge) about 21 linear feet of double track mainline, about enough to test run engines on, and a couple handlaid turnouts.

I know my friend Walter H's layout is not the norm, but make sure you can finish what you start lol.

Another friend built a modest point to point layout, with a very simple track plan, and wise use of mirrors to make part of the layout appear larger than it was.  It was exceptionally well executed and well scenic'd.  He made the cover of MR and had a feature article on his layout (he also was a decent custom painter of brass, so that helped as well).

[lvrr325]

If I were starting over I'd start with the sort of train I want to run, determine how long it would be, and design the layout from there. Mainline operation versus branch line with switching, or some combination thereof, if I need long sidings, short ones or double track with minimal or no sidings. Do they run from a sceniced yard or just in and out of staging. Get some graph paper and lay out some plans. A ramp or helix for a second level enters the picture when you can't fit what you want into the space you have in a single level, or you want to add a branch or other feature in the same space.

[tom]

I have a double track helix in place for about 15 years without any problems. Mine allows trains in my lower staging yards to gain access to the second level mainline. Mine takes up zero layout room because I built in a a room (which I built) in our adjacent garage and the tracks go through a couple of holes in the wall between rooms. The room was designed just for the helix but it also have shelves for junk and can either store the snow blower or the lawn mower.