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Post by The Ferro Kid on Jan 31, 2021 9:47:49 GMT -8
I can't use it but I'm glad to see it being made, hopefully more locomotives you wouldn't think would be made will be. For sure! Like, Lima LS1000 and LS1200 switchers.
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Post by thunderhawk on Jan 31, 2021 10:10:17 GMT -8
These pretty much lived in Wisconsin, and did not roam the Milwaukee or WC systems. Did they ever make it to Manitowoc? Interesting how this one would be a great candidate for that snarky "it's too regional" comment that we get as passenger train modelers. Somehow, though, that rule doesn't apply for freight trains. Terrible for Thunderhawk. Hours of work saved for those still holding on to a Kaslo kit. Great news for the hobby. Blair Kooistra has a photo of a pair in Washington state. A pair of them showed up in Bellingham a couple weeks before shutdown. Definitely not normal. They spent most of their time on South Dakota branchlines and the Chippewa Valley and Viroqua branches in WI before the embargo. Never used on southern WI branchlines or west of South Dakota other than the one instance documented above. After the shutdown they were common on the branchlines south of the Twin Cities and the northern Iowa line. Not heavily modeled, or even photographed, areas but a lot of MILW modelers want them. Looking through the variations available I see a couple errors and what I consider some poor choices knowing what modelers want. I'll let Scaletrains figure those out. edit-They were most common in the UP of Michigan and northern WI branchlines on WC but did roam a bit more there. Were never considered mainline power on either MILW or WC although they did show up there occasionally. 2nd edit-The Fepasa is comically wrong. I understand the limitations of "mass" production but to call it Museum Quality while not even attempting to get the roof details correct.... Ok...
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Post by slowfreight on Jan 31, 2021 11:40:52 GMT -8
10 actually built, I always wondered what the hype was... I think a lot of the hype and demand for the SDL39 is the "cute" factor. Like others, I don't have a "need" for one. But, I have been interested in them pretty much from when I first found out about them from plans in a MR till now andwould love to get one for my home layout. Talk about the perfect locomotive for a small shelf layout. I wouldn't quite have chosen "cute," but I'm probably not alone being fascinated by "big" little diesels (GP40TC) and "little" big diesels (SDL39). 20 years ago I would have pounced on a pair of these. But like those blue/white LIRR C420s I keep coveting, I can't give in on everything. We'll see if I can resist....
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Post by 12bridge on Jan 31, 2021 11:56:21 GMT -8
I have to agree - I just don't really see how this is museum quality over rivet counter. A few extras lights and sounds? Meh.
I hope that the handbrake chain is pre-production as well. It is ridiculously oversized.
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Post by thunderhawk on Jan 31, 2021 12:16:05 GMT -8
I have to agree - I just don't really see how this is museum quality over rivet counter. A few extras lights and sounds? Meh. I hope that the handbrake chain is pre-production as well. It is ridiculously oversized. Museum quality name justifies the price. The likelihood of this selling in large volumes like a SD45 or some such is low so the tooling costs are higher per unit, hence the higher price tag. Same as the Rapido EF4 being priced higher than their usual offerings. Just economics. Of course with the name one would think the details would be correct... Glaring error on the MILW's to anyone that knows and cares.
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Post by bnsf971 on Jan 31, 2021 13:26:05 GMT -8
The SDL39 is much shorter than a GP39. Not much would be useful for a GP39 model. My order for 3 Milwaukee's is in...I hope, the website seemed to be having issues. Hopefully that's a bunch of people ordering. Im glad to see these finally in plastic Per Wikipedia, both GP38/40 and SDL39 are 55 feet, plus or minus two inches. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_SDL39en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_GP40
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Post by thunderhawk on Jan 31, 2021 13:41:37 GMT -8
The SDL39 is much shorter than a GP39. Not much would be useful for a GP39 model. My order for 3 Milwaukee's is in...I hope, the website seemed to be having issues. Hopefully that's a bunch of people ordering. Im glad to see these finally in plastic Per Wikipedia, both GP38/40 and SDL39 are 55 feet, plus or minus two inches. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_SDL39en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_GP40Never trust Wikipedia. An SDL39 is a foot shorter than a GP9.
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Post by stuart on Jan 31, 2021 13:50:53 GMT -8
I think the idea of doing limited appeal prototypes as Museum Quality models is a good idea. The extra cost would offset the probable lower sales or cost of special tooling.
I could see ScaleTrains doing other special units such as the SD45X, SD40A, EMD 645 test beds (1965 GP40X and SD40X), MP15T, and high-hood U25B demonstrators.
Stuart
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Jan 31, 2021 13:58:43 GMT -8
Okay, I'll bite. What are the glaring error(s) on the MILW units? I Would like to get them fixed so they are correct. I have to agree - I just don't really see how this is museum quality over rivet counter. A few extras lights and sounds? Meh. I hope that the handbrake chain is pre-production as well. It is ridiculously oversized. Museum quality name justifies the price. The likelihood of this selling in large volumes like a SD45 or some such is low so the tooling costs are higher per unit, hence the higher price tag. Same as the Rapido EF4 being priced higher than their usual offerings. Just economics. Of course with the name one would think the details would be correct... Glaring error on the MILW's to anyone that knows and cares.
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Post by csxt8400 on Jan 31, 2021 14:17:54 GMT -8
I think the idea of doing limited appeal prototypes as Museum Quality models is a good idea. The extra cost would offset the probable lower sales or cost of special tooling. I could see ScaleTrains doing other special units such as the SD45X, SD40A, EMD 645 test beds (1965 GP40X and SD40X), MP15T, and high-hood U25B demonstrators. Stuart I agree. I'd probably die if they did the SD40X's.
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Post by thunderhawk on Jan 31, 2021 14:19:38 GMT -8
Okay, I'll bite. What are the glaring error(s) on the MILW units? I Would like to get them fixed so they are correct. Museum quality name justifies the price. The likelihood of this selling in large volumes like a SD45 or some such is low so the tooling costs are higher per unit, hence the higher price tag. Same as the Rapido EF4 being priced higher than their usual offerings. Just economics. Of course with the name one would think the details would be correct... Glaring error on the MILW's to anyone that knows and cares. I'm sure that this will come across as me being a dick, but ST can figure it out themselves. I'm sure some other MILW modelers will point it out to them. While also telling them why the versions they are doing are not the highest demand. While I have been working to produce this model a simple email would have saved both myself and ST a lot of time and money. It was no secret this was being worked on. Type SDL39 in the google machine and there it is. Suspending my project to help them do a superior model would not have been an issue as while I can produce good quality products, it is not to the level of injection molding yet. Being a one man shop a complete locomotive is a pretty large undertaking so helping a larger manufacturer helps everyone while I could move on to other products. The ONLY reason I was working to produce an SDL is because the likelihood of it being done by a large manufacturer was remote. I will put my research, data, drawings and personal knowledge against theirs anytime when it comes to this particular locomotive. They could have asked. Won't assist now.
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Post by NS4122 on Jan 31, 2021 14:56:18 GMT -8
So in other words, it's sour grapes because they beat you to the punch? When can we expect to see your version released? I'm sure that this will come across as me being a dick, but ST can figure it out themselves. I'm sure some other MILW modelers will point it out to them. While also telling them why the versions they are doing are not the highest demand. While I have been working to produce this model a simple email would have saved both myself and ST a lot of time and money. It was no secret this was being worked on. Type SDL39 in the google machine and there it is. Suspending my project to help them do a superior model would not have been an issue as while I can produce good quality products, it is not to the level of injection molding yet. Being a one man shop a complete locomotive is a pretty large undertaking so helping a larger manufacturer helps everyone while I could move on to other products. The ONLY reason I was working to produce an SDL is because the likelihood of it being done by a large manufacturer was remote. I will put my research, data, drawings and personal knowledge against theirs anytime when it comes to this particular locomotive. They could have asked. Won't assist now.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 31, 2021 15:17:39 GMT -8
So in other words, it's sour grapes because they beat you to the punch? Those are certainly "other words", but they don't seem to reflect what thunderhawk said. What I read is that he's upset that they knew they were going to make this loco, could have found him to say they were, and thus kept him from wasting effort that was now unnecessary. And did not. Ed
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Post by oldmuley on Jan 31, 2021 15:30:12 GMT -8
OMG! It's finally happening! I just had an SDLgasim!
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Post by thunderhawk on Jan 31, 2021 15:50:31 GMT -8
So in other words, it's sour grapes because they beat you to the punch? Those are certainly "other words", but they don't seem to reflect what thunderhawk said. What I read is that he's upset that they knew they were going to make this loco, could have found him to say they were, and thus kept him from wasting effort that was now unnecessary. And did not. Ed Someone gets it. And as a bonus to them I would have gladly helped them with their research, expediting the process.
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Post by NS4122 on Jan 31, 2021 17:13:23 GMT -8
It seems that you don't get it. You in effect, are their competitor as you had these on your site for pre-order. Why in the world would they ever consider going to a competitor for research information and why would they even let you know they were planning to produce the model? Going to you to announce their intentions is maybe how it's done in a fantasy world, but not in the cold reality of the business world. Those are certainly "other words", but they don't seem to reflect what thunderhawk said. What I read is that he's upset that they knew they were going to make this loco, could have found him to say they were, and thus kept him from wasting effort that was now unnecessary. And did not. Ed Someone gets it. And as a bonus to them I would have gladly helped them with their research, expediting the process.
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Post by slowfreight on Jan 31, 2021 17:23:54 GMT -8
It seems that you don't get it. You in effect, are their competitor as you had these on your site for pre-order. Why in the world would they ever consider going to a competitor for research information and why would they even let you know they were planning to produce the model? Going to you to announce their intentions is maybe how it's done in a fantasy world, but not in the cold reality of the business world. Someone gets it. And as a bonus to them I would have gladly helped them with their research, expediting the process. Because this community is Not. That. Big. Just like professional railroading, the hand you bite today may be the one you need to hang on to later.
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Post by MesquiteBeltRR on Jan 31, 2021 17:36:59 GMT -8
So let me see if I understand what you are saying:
ST or for that matter, anybody else should have either placed an open letter on the web or contacted you directly basically saying: We at ST are thinking of producing a SDL39 in the following roads (insert here) and would appreciate you, our competition in sharing any and all I research, drawings, scans and details with us, so we too can make the same model benefitting from your work. Really? Seriously?
I realize you may have gotten beat to the delivery punch (you still have to December to deliver) but this isn’t how competition works....
On another Lines West product; where are my MKT TOFC flatcars that were ordered months ago? I totally understand taking care of sick parents, been there, but never have you communicated with me after placing my order on a status update. I get updates if I look at your fb page...
Perhaps the side effect of now not being knee deep in SDL39 research, planning and production is maybe I’ll finally get my order filled. I doubt it, but maybe.
ST has a staff of career guys in the industry; you by your own admission, are a one man shop. There is a significant difference right there, not counting contacts, factory slots & experience of decades getting a product to market. Not saying a small one man shop can’t, but it’s not an even situation.
That all being said, yes, you are sounding like a dick that is mad. OK, be mad, disappointed or frustrated. Now you know how I feel waiting on my order....
Be a bigger man & take the higher road than what you are doing. People would respect you a lot more......
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Post by el3672 on Jan 31, 2021 18:48:51 GMT -8
Gezzz as me and many others were hoping for a Museum quality GP-30, GP-35 or maybe a popular GE U boat this time around...the waiting game goes on. As for the SDL39, it does not interest me so my wallet is safe, however those that are attracted to these MilW branchline units have fun & enjoy.
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Post by oakway on Jan 31, 2021 18:53:19 GMT -8
Oh boy. Here we go again with a locked thread. John
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Post by carrman on Jan 31, 2021 19:44:21 GMT -8
I warned you back in August. You didn't believe me.
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Post by el3672 on Jan 31, 2021 19:56:16 GMT -8
and Pufff just like that, so ST has now possibly disappeared from posting on ARF? R.I.P. just like Rapidoo, maybe a rare Athearn post and others. Yea Lock it.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jan 31, 2021 20:06:57 GMT -8
and Pufff just like that, so ST has now possibly disappeared from posting on ARF? R.I.P. just like Rapidoo, maybe a rare Athearn post and others. Yea Lock it. Pufff? Rapidoo? But Athearn's correct. Surprising how many people can't spell Athearn. Good on you! Do you seriously think Shane is threatened by these posts? I seriously think not. Ed
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Post by Donnell Wells on Feb 1, 2021 11:26:16 GMT -8
While it's true that Lines West Products and ScaleTrains.com are competitors, it is not unfathomable that competitors sometimes talk to each other regarding potential future offerings. Are they obligated to? Of course not. It is typically done as a courtesy. However, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, manufacturers do not owe anyone anything, not even the courtesy of letting other manufacturers know of potential products under development. The most recent example was when Bachmann secured its exclusive licensing deal with Siemens unbeknownst to Athearn, thus abruptly halting all of Athearn's development efforts toward this same locomotive. In like manner, there are two more companies producing the same locomotive, be it utilizing vastly different means of production. Nonetheless, they are heading toward the same goal in offering an HO-scale SDL39 to the modeling masses. Of course, it is highly frustrating and equally disappointing for a small one-person company to run up against this kind of "a brick wall", so I can understand his criticism and empathize with his disappointment.
To Todd: You have devoted at least two years into this project, and it would be a shame to see it all go to waste just because ScaleTrains has elected to produce the same locomotive. I would encourage you to finish what you have started, even if all you produce is one working prototype. The knowledge and insight that you will have gained from developing and producing your own locomotive from start to finish will be much more valuable than what you think you potentially may have lost. And I say "potentially" because we don't know all of the dynamics of the market yet, as neither product is physically available. While it is likely that ScaleTrains will capture the majority of the market share of modelers who desire this locomotive (just as with the ubiquitous F-unit, SD40-2, and now ES44AC available from several manufacturers), you can be sure that there will be some that would rather purchase from "the little guy". You just make sure you produce an excellent quality product, and it will sell itself!
Sincerely, Donnell
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Post by gevohogger on Feb 1, 2021 13:17:01 GMT -8
While it's true that Lines West Products and ScaleTrains.com are competitors, it is not unfathomable that competitors sometimes talk to each other regarding potential future offerings. Are they obligated to? Of course not. It is typically done as a courtesy. However, as I mentioned in an earlier thread, manufacturers do not owe anyone anything, not even the courtesy of letting other manufacturers know of potential products under development.
The possibility exists that Scale Trains didn't know about Todd's SDL39 project.
If Athearn or Moloco or Tangent or ExactRail are planning a new boxcar, do they remember to see if Cannon is working on the same car already (or better yet - a guy with a 3-D printer)? Or do they only concern themselves with the bigger companies? It is easy to fly under the radar.
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Post by Donnell Wells on Feb 1, 2021 13:51:28 GMT -8
The possibility exists that Scale Trains didn't know about Todd's SDL39 project. If Athearn or Moloco or Tangent or ExactRail are planning a new boxcar, do they remember to see if Cannon is working on the same car already (or better yet - a guy with a 3-D printer)? Or do they only concern themselves with the bigger companies? It is easy to fly under the radar.
It's possible. However, Lines West Products has been posting information about the development of an SDL39 on Facebook and in most of the major forums, as well as on their website for over two years now. So, it's highly unlikely that ST didn't know. But that's neither here nor there...
Donnell
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Feb 1, 2021 15:12:36 GMT -8
No clue why Lines West was developing a SDL39 when Kaslo already released a model and there have been brass models. Hopefully Lines West talked to Kaslo and the brass manufacturers that he wanted to produce a SDL39.
See how dumb that sounds?
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Post by slowfreight on Feb 1, 2021 15:34:52 GMT -8
No clue why Lines West was developing a SDL39 when Kaslo already released a model and there have been brass models. Hopefully Lines West talked to Kaslo and the brass manufacturers that he wanted to produce a SDL39. See how dumb that sounds? Manufacturing a resin/etching kit is somewhat different from what Thunderhawk is doing. The molds (moulds for Kaslo?) have a limited life, be it 50, or 100, or 150 copies. Kaslo expects to monetize over the first production run, just like the brass manufacturers. The Genesis SDP40F didn't necessarily hurt Kaslo.Lines West never got to the first production run. But again, this community--especially on the manufacturer side--is not that big. ST can do what it wants to, but that could have included a call in advance of the public announcement, even if only a day or two. Something like "Hey, we're committed to this project, but we know you did a lot of work on your own before now--would you be willing to collaborate with us to finish it?" What follows is simply a business negotiation. Either ST and LW reach an agreement to pool effort or they don't. If the SDL39 gets done as a mass-produced model, graciously helping Thunderhawk redirect his efforts could have established a different relationship between the two firms to collaborate on each firm's strength. Lines West is good at smaller-run specialty items and has a huge knowledge base in 3D printing...ScaleTrains could potentially have benefitted from being on good terms with that kind of firm. Might even have made it possible for Lines West to become a full-time business.
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Post by protofrtcar on Feb 1, 2021 16:29:38 GMT -8
No clue why Lines West was developing a SDL39 when Kaslo already released a model and there have been brass models. Hopefully Lines West talked to Kaslo and the brass manufacturers that he wanted to produce a SDL39. See how dumb that sounds? You are clueless, by your own admission. There is no comparison with a Kaslo resin/etched kit ( modeler to build ) or a brass version ( long dead limited production, very expensive, not for most modelers, only to be found on the rare second hand market ) Both ST and LW are to be limited production RTR models. If you were to learn more about the quality of LW current products you may be inclined to agree with Donnell to encourage him to continue and complete his version, it may well show up the ST version if it has inaccurate prototype details we shall see !!! But the point is we should be ENCOURIGING every manufacturer, instead of wasting our time to put them down, just because we can !
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Feb 1, 2021 17:17:58 GMT -8
It's called hyperbole. Guess you don't get it. I know all I need to know about Lines West products by the comment above of not delivering the ordered item and no updates on why the delay. Oh, wasn't the LW SDL39 going to be released last year? Could you imagine how mad Scale Trains would have been if LW would have beat them to the delivery. Guess there is still time... No clue why Lines West was developing a SDL39 when Kaslo already released a model and there have been brass models. Hopefully Lines West talked to Kaslo and the brass manufacturers that he wanted to produce a SDL39. See how dumb that sounds? You are clueless, by your own admission. There is no comparison with a Kaslo resin/etched kit ( modeler to build ) or a brass version ( long dead limited production, very expensive, not for most modelers, only to be found on the rare second hand market ) Both ST and LW are to be limited production RTR models. If you were to learn more about the quality of LW current products you may be inclined to agree with Donnell to encourage him to continue and complete his version, it may well show up the ST version if it has inaccurate prototype details we shall see !!! But the point is we should be ENCOURIGING every manufacturer, instead of wasting our time to put them down, just because we can !
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