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Post by mdvle on May 30, 2021 5:30:11 GMT -8
I have said this before and got hammered, but Rapido needs to stop with the dumb a** videos and silly clown acts, and get serious about quality control and deliver a quality product. For the prices of the models, this is not too much to ask. Whose quality control and research is worse, Athearn or Rapido.
What you perceive as "silly clown acts" is actually serious business - because successful marketing is serious.
Starting a business in this hobby and not just surviving for 15+ years but growing in size as much as Rapido has is a clear indication that despite the impression some have Rapido is underneath a very serious business - you don't survive that long spending that kind of money it takes to bring model trains to market without being serious.
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Post by ambluco on May 30, 2021 5:51:24 GMT -8
First, I think the photo of the Rapido model has light issues (off color overall). If you color correct the model, it looks more like the Walthers unit. Second, reading through GNHS newsletters on color, some in that scheme were gold and others yellow. All the electrics in that color were yellow too, not gold. So I don't think you can just say should be gold, should be yellow. So here's a photo of the Rapido GN SW1200: rapidotrains.com/products/ho-scale/diesel-locomotives/ho-scale-sw1200-great-northern-30-gnrhs-custom-0See that striping? Does it look yellow? Sure does to me. Unfortunately, the color should be imitation gold. What is hilariously funny is that the GNRHS put their name on this. I am SO regretting I didn't buy a Walthers instead. After that absolute mess with the colors on the SP&S FA-2's, I thought Rapido was chastened. Embarrassed. I thought they'd REALLY try hard to get the colors right on following models. Nope. Not chastened. Not embarrassed. Apparently, not really caring at all. Luckily for them, they don't read this forum, so their feelings are spared. So nice for them. I am SERIOUSLY wondering what they can screw up with my RS-11's and UP E units. And whether I should just not bother. Ed |
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Post by westerntrains on May 30, 2021 7:46:17 GMT -8
I have said this before and got hammered, but Rapido needs to stop with the dumb a** videos and silly clown acts, and get serious about quality control and deliver a quality product. For the prices of the models, this is not too much to ask. Whose quality control and research is worse, Athearn or Rapido. What you perceive as "silly clown acts" is actually serious business - because successful marketing is serious. Starting a business in this hobby and not just surviving for 15+ years but growing in size as much as Rapido has is a clear indication that despite the impression some have Rapido is underneath a very serious business - you don't survive that long sful markpending that kind of money it takes to bring model trains to market without being serious. Successful marketing is selling a well done, quality model. A company that sells a quality product doesn't need to do silly videos. Their products speak for themselves. |
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Post by rounder on May 30, 2021 8:22:23 GMT -8
So here's a photo of the Rapido GN SW1200: rapidotrains.com/products/ho-scale/diesel-locomotives/ho-scale-sw1200-great-northern-30-gnrhs-custom-0See that striping? Does it look yellow? Sure does to me. Unfortunately, the color should be imitation gold. What is hilariously funny is that the GNRHS put their name on this. I am SO regretting I didn't buy a Walthers instead. After that absolute mess with the colors on the SP&S FA-2's, I thought Rapido was chastened. Embarrassed. I thought they'd REALLY try hard to get the colors right on following models. Nope. Not chastened. Not embarrassed. Apparently, not really caring at all. Luckily for them, they don't read this forum, so their feelings are spared. So nice for them. I am SERIOUSLY wondering what they can screw up with my RS-11's and UP E units. And whether I should just not bother. Ed On the bright side, you haven't been told to 'take a long walk off of a short pier' yet, so there is still hope. |
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Post by Christian on May 30, 2021 8:32:38 GMT -8
Whose quality control and research is worse, Athearn or Rapido. |
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Post by 12bridge on May 30, 2021 9:02:06 GMT -8
 ...What is this?.. |
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Post by lvrr325 on May 30, 2021 9:15:04 GMT -8
I did not pre-order any of these; if someone really wanted one I can probably snag one or two, I did see my source had them in. I had a feeling these were going to have some issues. Since they cost so much I didn't want to get stuck with any.
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Post by lars on May 30, 2021 9:43:15 GMT -8
Rapdio openly admitted that they bit off more than they could chew with all the road names they offered in one run. While it may have not been the cause, I imagine it didn’t help to try to do them all at once.
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 30, 2021 9:46:58 GMT -8
First, I think the photo of the Rapido model has light issues (off color overall). If you color correct the model, it looks more like the Walthers unit. I did an Autocolor in Photoshop, and there was improvement: the orange and green look MUCH better--actually believable. The orange, especially, doesn't appear to have that common reddish tinge that is frequently seen on GN models. The yellow still looks yellow. There's been confusion on this matter for a very long time. GN painting diagrams for locomotives frequently/usually referred to the striping color as "yellow". But one of those drawings also includes the Dupont color code: Duco 254-50931 (lacquer) and Duluxe 83-50931 (enamel). Those codes are for imitation gold, not yellow. It appears that someone decided that the word "yellow" MEANT yellow. Sadly, it did not. A paint diagram for the GN Empire Builder scheme calls for "imitation gold" striping (95-056 or 95-020). There is no way the GN would have tolerated mis-matched colors on their locomotives and rolling stock. I have no reason to believe that GN ever specified for any motive power that the striping should be a true yellow, rather than imitation gold. I have before me a sample of GN imitation gold from a passenger car. It is what I have called a "Gulden's mustard" color--a yellowish tan. This is like the LV RS11s all over again. If the GN historical people looked at the model and said "yup, this is good, go right ahead", who is Rapido to tell these people they are wrong? They are supposedly the 'experts' after all. Do you really think any of the guys over at Rapido know enough about the GN to catch this kind of stuff? Maybe they had some photos to look at but we all know how reliable those can be...... North Bank Line announced a run of business cars some months back. They said they would match whatever the various RHS's said were the proper colors. I wrote: what if the RHS's are WRONG? Take some responsibility! Do some research. Ask around. Don't palm off responsibility for YOUR product on someone else. Yup, I think the same thing applies here. Ah, but what happens when they ignore the research material and do what they want? Did that yesterday. Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 30, 2021 9:49:34 GMT -8
Rapdio openly admitted that they bit off more than they could chew with all the road names they offered in one run. While it may have not been the cause, I imagine it didn’t help to try to do them all at once. If they "bit off more than they could chew", perhaps they should have spent more time digesting it, instead of just gulping it down. No. That excuse would work for taking longer to get the models out. It is NOT good enough to explain mistakes. If there are any. Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 30, 2021 9:54:14 GMT -8
After that absolute mess with the colors on the SP&S FA-2's, I thought Rapido was chastened. Embarrassed. I thought they'd REALLY try hard to get the colors right on following models. How did the FA-2’s turn out? How far from SP&S and how close to CNW are the colors. Not well. I've never seen the Rapido FA-2 "live"--I declined purchase of the SP&S, and I have just never seen a CNW model (I'm in SP land). It WOULD be fun to see both the SP&S and the CNW version in the same picture. ARE they the same colors? Ed |
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Post by riogrande on May 30, 2021 11:15:01 GMT -8
D&RGW had some paint labeled "gold" that was applied to diesels. From notes on UtahRails.net:
So paint labeled as imitation gold seemed to appear as yellow, or visa versa. But I can't speak for GN.
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 30, 2021 11:25:44 GMT -8
D&RGW had some paint labeled "gold" that was applied to diesels. From notes on UtahRails.net: So paint labeled as imitation gold seemed to appear as yellow, or visa versa. But I can't speak for GN. I don't understand why you think the Rio Grande imitation gold "seemed to appear as yellow, or visa versa". Here's a typical sample of imitation gold (Dick Blick sign painter's paint--probably a good choice):  The above color is VERY close to the sample of GN Imitation Gold I have here. The range for yellows is enormous, but here's RGB yellow, for a start:  If you feel that imitation gold should be described by using one of the 6 "basic" colors, yellow is it. Orange, red, blue, purple and green are not. Ed |
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Post by lvrr325 on May 30, 2021 11:30:07 GMT -8
you can market all you want and if the product has problems it will undo all your marketing because when people are happy, they generally don't say much, but when people are unhappy with an item they complain long and loudly.
Does anybody test their drives these days? Like set up a 4x8 with a couple switches to run through and put that engine on and just let it run 24 hours a day for like two weeks straight. Run it until it quits and then figure out why it quit. If it will go until the brushes wear out you're probably good. I have Atlas engines that seen to have done that.
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Post by riogrande on May 30, 2021 11:34:31 GMT -8
Ed, I was referring to what was quoted from the UtahRails.net site. "The GP7s were delivered in black and _yellow_ (Duco Imitation Gold)" Someone must have said that because the color looks yellow? *shrug* As they say, don't shoot the messenger.
Anyway, I can't speak for GN and fortunately don't have to wring my hands over the GN SW1200s.
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Post by sd80mac on May 30, 2021 12:26:34 GMT -8
I do wonder why they decided to do SO many schemes in the first run. In addition to the myriad of road names, they elected to do ALL THREE GTW schemes at once. Really?
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Post by mdvle on May 30, 2021 13:00:12 GMT -8
I do wonder why they decided to do SO many schemes in the first run. In addition to the myriad of road names, they elected to do ALL THREE GTW schemes at once. Really? I don't think they have ever said, but at a guess to try and make everyone happy - because with every newly tooled item, particularly those items that had lots of owners, there is always the chorus of people asking "but why didn't you do X" |
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Post by 12bridge on May 30, 2021 13:20:06 GMT -8
I would imagine it has alot to do with getting as much return on the first run as possible. It is usually several years before Rapido does reruns on locomotives..actually, quite a few have not been rerun yet period.
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Post by mdvle on May 30, 2021 13:20:59 GMT -8
you can market all you want and if the product has problems it will undo all your marketing because when people are happy, they generally don't say much, but when people are unhappy with an item they complain long and loudly. Athearn sold a lot of their Bombardier bi-level models painted for GO Transit - except it wasn't accurate for anything GO Transit ran. Didn't matter. The small number of people who really care about absolute accuracy and paint colors are a very, very small part of this hobby and their loud complaints aren't heard by the majority of the market. Now, that isn't to say that companies like Rapido shouldn't do better and aim for 100% accuracy, because (at least in my opinion they should). But take the recent thread regarding Athearn's Ph3 P42 that some stated was wrong, yet the guy from Amtrak says it's correct. In that case it was easy, there was an authoritative voice for people to ask - but when we are talking about railroads that ceased to exist 40+ years ago, where a lot of documentation is perhaps only black/white photos or otherwise ambiguous, where paint color consistency was more variable, and where what some random painter somewhere on the railroads network did is unknown, it isn't so easy. It's easy for Amtrak to be definitive when for the last 40 years they have painted all their stuff in one place. At some point a model manufacturer needs to make a decision based on the research that they have on hand, and sometimes they will get it wrong for whatever reason. But they other alternative is to never release a model... |
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 30, 2021 13:56:36 GMT -8
The small number of people who really care about absolute accuracy and paint colors are a very, very small part of this hobby and their loud complaints aren't heard by the majority of the market. Ah. So THAT'S why those of us who care can be ignored. It'll STILL sell to the majority who don't know or don't care. I think you are pretty correct on this, though I don't believe you have good data to back it up. The SP&S and GN ceased to exist about 50 years ago. But there was a LOT of color film used, including in the first years of BN, when there was still plenty of equipment about. Paint consistency was not so variable that you'd notice, ESPECIALLY for new equipment. Yes, some people somewhere slathered some hardware store paint on some freight cars. This was not the rule. The railroads bought paint directly from major manufacturers, and distributed it about the system. IF there were a "random painter" who got creative, it didn't get known to management. If he had been found out, he would likely have been fired. That random painter did not repaint locomotives or passenger cars. That was done in shops by professionals. In fact, Great Northern passenger cars were painted/repainted in only one shop on the system. Perhaps your favorite railroad was the exception, but most railroads were very conservative and had best practices they expected their employees to follow. In addition, while original equipment cannot be examined anymore, and former employees are going to the great roundhouse in the sky, research actually turns up more and more information. And that is mostly not some old guy's recollections, but genuine railroad records. At the SP&SHS, for example, we've put together a list of 15,000 SP&S passenger consists (It's still not complete, yet). That was done in just the last few years, LONG after SP&S was gone. Plus that darn internet makes sharing information SO much faster and easier. Back in the '70's, I would actually have to snail-mail color prints of GN freight cars to my buddy. Now I just share a file. Quite true, so it behooves them to make sure their research is actually correct. For example, if GNRHS says the stripes are "yellow", you check with other people you know. That can be very difficult if you only do NYO&W, but it's possible. For example, you e-mail a guy who spent hours researching for your SP&S project, and asking him if he knows someone who can confirm his data. So you're saying accept quick sloppy work or you won't get anything at all. Kind of sounds like one of my electrical suppliers. Well, MY other alternative is to do tighter research. Take the extra time to get it right. You'll make less money, but your reputation will be much higher. Ed |
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Post by lars on May 30, 2021 14:20:28 GMT -8
I would imagine it has alot to do with getting as much return on the first run as possible. It is usually several years before Rapido does reruns on locomotives..actually, quite a few have not been rerun yet period. I was thinking the same thing. The mfg’s have commented that switches don’t sell as well as road units (model RRs don’t need as many, likely switchers don’t get the same amount of impulse buys because they’re not someone’s favorite), and you already have a decent SW1200 on the market. Running a bunch of roads would offset the risk of lower sales and help cover tooling costs in the first run. |
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Post by Chad on May 30, 2021 16:17:51 GMT -8
I love this forum because you are assured of a thread on the crappy job XYZ manufacture did on a new model. It is so entertaining each time a manufacture announces a new model I look forward to it being ripped apart on here, funny as hell. Well done boys, keep up the good work.
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 30, 2021 16:50:05 GMT -8
I love this forum because you are assured of a thread on the crappy job XYZ manufacture did on a new model. It is so entertaining each time a manufacture announces a new model I look forward to it being ripped apart on here, funny as hell. Well done boys, keep up the good work. I see it really grates on you when people discuss manufacturer's errors (I do have to wonder at your thought that it is somehow "funny"). I also wonder why it bothers you when manufacturer's mistakes are discussed. Should we just keep our mouths shut and take what they give us? Is that what you do? "...each time a manufacture announces a new model I look forward to it being ripped apart on here..." Chad. Kindly note that the latest Tangent release was not "ripped apart on here". Nor was the previous one. Of course, there were no mistakes. But I don't think that the Forum should take all the blame for that. Ed |
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Post by mdvle on May 30, 2021 16:54:48 GMT -8
Ah. So THAT'S why those of us who care can be ignored. It'll STILL sell to the majority who don't know or don't care. I think you are pretty correct on this, though I don't believe you have good data to back it up. Just to be clear, I didn't say that such behaviour was acceptable, just that it happens. The railroads bought paint directly from major manufacturers, and distributed it about the system. Color consistency between batches has always been a problem, which is why the advice has always been to either make sure whatever you buy is from the same manufacturing batch or to mix the items together. IF there were a "random painter" who got creative, it didn't get known to management. If he had been found out, he would likely have been fired. That random painter did not repaint locomotives or passenger cars. That was done in shops by professionals. In fact, Great Northern passenger cars were painted/repainted in only one shop on the system. Bad wording on my part - I didn't mean they grabbed somebody off the street, but rather it is unlikely we have records that employee X painted locomotive Y on Z. Quite true, so it behooves them to make sure their research is actually correct. For example, if GNRHS says the stripes are "yellow", you check with other people you know. That can be very difficult if you only do NYO&W, but it's possible. For example, you e-mail a guy who spent hours researching for your SP&S project, and asking him if he knows someone who can confirm his data. And how do you know that this other person is correct, and the historical society is wrong? Do you then go for a third opinion? Fourth? I understand it can be frustrating when problems happen, but there is a limit to how much effort they can put into chasing down multiple opinions on a paint color while they are also trying to juggle multiple other projects that they are working on. So you're saying accept quick sloppy work or you won't get anything at all. Now your putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that. This hobby is full of stories of people who have spent years if not decades researching a project, who finally decide they can't wait for more data any longer, only once they are finished to have some pictures or other information show up indicating that had made bad assumptions/decisions. Any company, in any line of business, at some point has to draw a line and say put it into production. Otherwise you never actually ship anything. But that isn't the same thing as saying "accept quick sloppy work", just that having put X hours into it you can't keep putting more effort in which means not doing the other 5 things you are expected to be doing. Well, MY other alternative is to do tighter research. Take the extra time to get it right. You'll make less money, but your reputation will be much higher. Or, more likely you go out of business. You can't keep spending money on a project (whether it is the cost of doing more research, or the cost of carrying the $200k+ already spent for yet another month with no revenue on the project) and stay in business. This is how so many businesses fail - the owner doesn't pay attention to the financials. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 30, 2021 17:26:31 GMT -8
Bad wording on my part - I didn't mean they grabbed somebody off the street, but rather it is unlikely we have records that employee X painted locomotive Y on Z. And we don't need to know whether employee X painted locomotive Y on Z. The railroad had standardized paints, and employees, all of them, were expected to use them in an approved manner. And how do you know the historical society is RIGHT? Apparently by not asking other people. So the way to handle all these multiple projects is to cut back on the research time, so they can all get done. Thus it's better to produce many inadequately researched products than fewer well researched. Yeah, that's an approach. I am beginning to fully appreciate your point. It's better to not take time to thoroughly research a project because then there won't be enough production to sustain the business. I do hope Dave Lehlbach hears about this concept soon, before it's too late. Ed |
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Post by bnsf971 on May 30, 2021 17:59:02 GMT -8
The Proto drive is fantastic. The Rapdio SW drive now.. I have 3 of them personally, and all 3 have needed to be taken apart several times due to pickup issues that even a keep alive would not help. A customers had to have the board changed due to LED failures. Not heard of motor issues on the SW's though. I had to return an SW1200RS that had a bad motor. I sent it directly back to Rapido, they replaced the motor and decoder, and returned it to me. |
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Post by GP40P-2 on May 30, 2021 18:06:31 GMT -8
Manufacturers and paint colors..... All so easily solvable with undec models. Alas, "undecs don't sell."  |
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Post by westerntrains on May 30, 2021 18:21:41 GMT -8
So I guess the hobby is regressing to the days of Irv Athearn.
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 30, 2021 19:04:50 GMT -8
Manufacturers and paint colors..... All so easily solvable with undec models. Alas, "undecs don't sell." Masking, painting and decaling the standard GN scheme is not "easily". I was so glad to get 4 Athearn GN GP9's off the shelf. And, yes, they have problems, starting with the orange being too red. Ed |
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Post by Chad on May 30, 2021 19:14:06 GMT -8
I love this forum because you are assured of a thread on the crappy job XYZ manufacture did on a new model. It is so entertaining each time a manufacture announces a new model I look forward to it being ripped apart on here, funny as hell. Well done boys, keep up the good work. I see it really grates on you when people discuss manufacturer's errors (I do have to wonder at your thought that it is somehow "funny"). I also wonder why it bothers you when manufacturer's mistakes are discussed. Should we just keep our mouths shut and take what they give us? Is that what you do? "...each time a manufacture announces a new model I look forward to it being ripped apart on here..." Chad. Kindly note that the latest Tangent release was not "ripped apart on here". Nor was the previous one. Of course, there were no mistakes. But I don't think that the Forum should take all the blame for that. Ed Hey I am just saying it's funny. You have your favorite manufactures so good for you. No need to get defensive. |
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