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Post by edwardsutorik on May 30, 2021 19:29:42 GMT -8
Chad,
I'm not defensive. I'm trying to understand your point of view.
It appears you don't like people talking about manufacturer's mistakes. I am wondering why that is.
Do you think we should just not talk about them at all? Or is it being done in the wrong way?
I'm glad it's amusing and entertaining for you. I am not sure why you would feel the need to say so, unless it were in approval. In that case, I think we all thank you.
Would it be better if we said meaner and nastier things? More amusing, perhaps? I don't think I want to do that, but I am wondering anyway.
Oh, yeah: favorite manufacturers. THAT'S an interesting point. Thanks.
For me, I've not thought about that. Maybe, I suppose. But mistakes are mistakes, no matter who makes them. And whoever is my fave, it's still not a pass to screw up.
Ed
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Post by lvrr325 on May 30, 2021 20:08:41 GMT -8
you can market all you want and if the product has problems it will undo all your marketing because when people are happy, they generally don't say much, but when people are unhappy with an item they complain long and loudly. Athearn sold a lot of their Bombardier bi-level models painted for GO Transit - except it wasn't accurate for anything GO Transit ran. Didn't matter. The small number of people who really care about absolute accuracy and paint colors are a very, very small part of this hobby and their loud complaints aren't heard by the majority of the market. Now, that isn't to say that companies like Rapido shouldn't do better and aim for 100% accuracy, because (at least in my opinion they should). But take the recent thread regarding Athearn's Ph3 P42 that some stated was wrong, yet the guy from Amtrak says it's correct. In that case it was easy, there was an authoritative voice for people to ask - but when we are talking about railroads that ceased to exist 40+ years ago, where a lot of documentation is perhaps only black/white photos or otherwise ambiguous, where paint color consistency was more variable, and where what some random painter somewhere on the railroads network did is unknown, it isn't so easy. It's easy for Amtrak to be definitive when for the last 40 years they have painted all their stuff in one place. At some point a model manufacturer needs to make a decision based on the research that they have on hand, and sometimes they will get it wrong for whatever reason. But they other alternative is to never release a model... When the choice is incorrect but good looking, or nothing, people will pick the incorrect piece. When the choice is incorrect or brass/expensive many will choose the cheaper option. That's why Atlas can sell a C&O caboose decorated for everybody under the sun. Often it's the only caboose available when it's released and as a Trainman piece it's less expensive than it could be. I have both Proto and Bachmann northeastern cabooses that are not entirely correct for LV, I even found one somebody did a nice job painting green. At $100 a shot for the Rapido ones, assuming they make no mistakes that shouldn't be on a $100 caboose, I will likely keep the Proto and Bachmann ones for a long time right next to the Rapido. The same goes for the RS11. I could have had factory painted red LV ones, but I sold them because for the price they shouldn't have looked like they would glow in the dark, they should have been much closer in appearance to other HO LV models. Rapido is not the same as Athearn. People have bought their items for years with flaws and mistakes and accepted them. Mistakes and outright foobies are going to happen, these guys want to sell as many models as they can. It's just that when they're on the level Rapido is supposed to be on, some of these mistakes should not be happening. And they're not entirely to blame, either, if what should be a trustworthy source, a historical society, supplies a paint chip and you match it, it's on them, not so much on you. They can't be an expert on every single railroad and if they had more people on payroll to research and double check these things the engines would cost even more. Of course if you limit the number of roadnames in a run then you can dedicate more time to the research, I suppose. But it's a general standard that you will hear it more from people not happy with an item than people who are happy. |
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Post by wmrdgfan on May 30, 2021 20:45:35 GMT -8
The reality of the situation, for me, is that it soon will no longer matter what details are missed or what color an engine or piece of rolling stock is. $50+ Freight cars, $100+ cabooses, and $200+ Diesels, #300+ Diesels with sound, and steam engines in the 4,5,6,7,hundred dollar range is putting me out of the new toy market. I will just have to live with what I have. I'm tiered of getting 200 dollar fa2s that were meticulously researched and when I receive the models they have the complete wrong grill inserts in them plus all of the rear cab entrance doors were punched in I returned them , they put the right grills in, but have super glue all over everything. My coarse of action is not to by the stuff until I can see a finished model running a display railroad, painted in the color they intend to use. I don't see these prices stopping anytime soon. every new announcement is 5 to 10 dollars higher than the last. I'M just not gonna do it any more!
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Post by cemr5396 on May 30, 2021 21:55:58 GMT -8
comparing a $50 Tangent freight car to someone else's $300 locomotive model is not a fair comparison. A locomotive is FAR more likely than a freight car to have unique features onto itself. This requires much more work to figure out just what those things are. So it becomes a very fine balance between productivity, and pissing off the 5 people who will notice the doohickey is in the wrong spot. Or the wrong color. Like it or not these companies can't afford to not release a product in a timely manner just in case there is something they got wrong that they weren't able to turn up in their research.
With all due respect to the fantastic work DL does, if you are researching Railroad X's order for 50 P-S 4750s in 1979, that is a lot more straight forward. Once you have the basics worked out, you pretty much have it beat. It's not like the 14th car in the order is going to be any different than the 37th. And if they had a bolt or two in a different spot for some reason, nobody would ever know or care.
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Post by csxt8400 on May 31, 2021 0:54:45 GMT -8
comparing a $50 Tangent freight car to someone else's $300 locomotive model is not a fair comparison. A locomotive is FAR more likely than a freight car to have unique features onto itself. This requires much more work to figure out just what those things are. So it becomes a very fine balance between productivity, and pissing off the 5 people who will notice the doohickey is in the wrong spot. Or the wrong color. Like it or not these companies can't afford to not release a product in a timely manner just in case there is something they got wrong that they weren't able to turn up in their research. With all due respect to the fantastic work DL does, if you are researching Railroad X's order for 50 P-S 4750s in 1979, that is a lot more straight forward. Once you have the basics worked out, you pretty much have it beat. It's not like the 14th car in the order is going to be any different than the 37th. And if they had a bolt or two in a different spot for some reason, nobody would ever know or care. In a general sense I agree with you, but the fact of the matter is that there are certainly less rolling stock photographs of high quality to choose from than many locomotives, so depending on the run I would say Tangent has a harder time of things. I also will continue to give Tangent an even higher mark because they don't go generic on the small stuff (CAPY data, COTS, etc) and they trace the original lettering to get it as close as possible. There is something to be said when you bring the magnification glass into focus on the BLT date lettering on the panel, to find the correct date and "B&LE" as the origin railroad like god intended (For the PS 4750's.) In terms of producing that car with said amount of detail for six roadnumbers, yes, it is a simpler process in that regard ONCE the major stenciling has been painstakingly rendered, and the color matched to acceptance. Even if Tangent doesn't get a color totally right (IMO), it rarely if ever looks "wrong" and that is the magic spot to be sometimes. That GN switcher looks terrible. I cannot help but recall a simpler time where even the cheap Walthers FA's had acceptable paint, the Atlas Dash 8's all had pretty good color and pad printing, and the newly tooled Athearn RTR SD60's were a knockout. Nowadays, and I know I'm probably using rose colored glasses just a bit, we have super detailed equipment that gets either 1. terrible assembly/QC and/or 2.) colors whacked out. The happy medium has gotten harder to achieve as the physical models and details have improved, but I will secede that is in part due to the higher demands and price point that we now operate within. Regardless, there is a wrong paint color. I often see the excuse of fading and whatever else people can come up with, but if you aren't in that middle ground where things can pass as "close enough" then the paint is wrong. With a little help i'm sure we can name at least five major models that have had either color screw ups or font/number mistakes that could have easily been avoided within the last few years. I have personally sent more than a few emails with research material and/or artwork to make my cases. In some instances the fixes were made and things were great. In others the communication is so poor that I hold my breath as the engines come ashore, because I find it less than appealing to reject a new locomotive at my dealer for an issue that the owner is clueless about, but the one thing he is aware of is that I am sticking him with the engine. It does seem like we have a color problem every few months. And I don't really know what can improve this dilemma. With the practice of sending test samples for review, I scratch my head at how we arrive at final production with problems like these. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 31, 2021 6:55:00 GMT -8
comparing a $50 Tangent freight car to someone else's $300 locomotive model is not a fair comparison. A locomotive is FAR more likely than a freight car to have unique features onto itself. This requires much more work to figure out just what those things are. So it becomes a very fine balance between productivity, and pissing off the 5 people who will notice the doohickey is in the wrong spot. Or the wrong color. Like it or not these companies can't afford to not release a product in a timely manner just in case there is something they got wrong that they weren't able to turn up in their research. With all due respect to the fantastic work DL does, if you are researching Railroad X's order for 50 P-S 4750s in 1979, that is a lot more straight forward. Once you have the basics worked out, you pretty much have it beat. It's not like the 14th car in the order is going to be any different than the 37th. And if they had a bolt or two in a different spot for some reason, nobody would ever know or care. So, what you're saying is that it's just too darn time consuming and expensive to do it right. So we won't. OK. Ed |
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on May 31, 2021 7:02:54 GMT -8
I have seen it mentioned several times the assumption that the Historical Society provided wrong information and would like to respond as an alternative. It’s also possible the HS provided the correct paint colors recommendation, possibly a paint diagram, reviewed the artwork for the model and provided corrections, and reviewed the pre-production model and provided a comprehensive prototype vs model corrections needed. Realistically some of the errors/fixes should have identified at the CAD phase prior to tooling is cut. When the HS came in to the project, it would more than likely been after the tooling phase. At that point the manufacturer decides what they want to change/fix and at what cost based upon feedback. Choices were made on what to address. Who ultimately is to blame at that point? Looking at the production model, I am not sure what was specifically fixed from the pre-production model. I look forward to receiving my order to see them in person.
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Post by fr8kar on May 31, 2021 7:41:38 GMT -8
So, what you're saying is that it's just too darn time consuming and expensive to do it right. So we won't. Rapido answered that question with the B36-7 steps. |
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Post by dstark on May 31, 2021 7:46:13 GMT -8
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 31, 2021 7:47:19 GMT -8
"Who ultimately is to blame at that point?"
Ultimately?: The manufacturer. They get the money. They run the job. They make the decisions.
They may have relied on bad data. It's still on them. That's why they should make an effort to check things.
IF an HS screws up, I am VERY sympathetic to the manufacturer. But they don't get to "pass the buck". They DO get to learn how to do better at sourcing data.
As far as when an HS might become involved: I have every reason to believe that the NPHS was involved right from the very beginning for Rapido's NP boxcar. As in: here's some detailed prototype drawings--wanna make a model?
For something like the SW1200, Rapido may well have started mold cutting for common items before they talked to the various HS's. I think it is a balance between keeping quiet about upcoming projects versus spreading the word early and getting "everyone" involved. Tough call, for sure.
I know nothing about how the GNRHS transferred data for this model. Or what that data was. I don't recall any discussion about it on the GN Group site, and search terms turn up none, either.
Ed
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 31, 2021 7:54:10 GMT -8
If that's a cab vent, and it surely does look like it is, where's the "Rotary Beacon", as mentioned majorly by Rapido in the model description? Ed |
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Post by 12bridge on May 31, 2021 8:00:57 GMT -8
Something to add to the historical society discussion: Some are lightyears better then others. In some cases you are lucky to get the time of day, if you even get a response, let alone help with paint schemes and color codes.
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 31, 2021 8:14:34 GMT -8
Something to add to the historical society discussion: Some are lightyears better then others. In some cases you are lucky to get the time of day, if you even get a response, let alone help with paint schemes and color codes. Yup. The NP folks are VERY involved in model production and data. Witness the Moloco and Rapido boxcars, for example. I assume also the Tangent cars (That's THREE NP cars folks. Yeah!!!). And they have some GREAT decals and GREAT data to go with them. The SP&S people are very good, especially our Archivist, Rich. He's the one that supplied many of the photos of SP&S FA-2's I sent to Rapido. GN, not so much, though there are models produced by the society. I have a very nice craftsman kit for a GN "single" door baggage car from them. The UP HS has pretty much dropped modeling from their repertoire. This does NOT mean they won't respond to a request for prototype info--I simply don't know about that. Interestingly, there are very few messages on the UP Modelers Group--a big surprise for such a railroad. Ed |
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on May 31, 2021 8:25:06 GMT -8
Ed, Are you saying the SP&S HS is not to blame for the color on the FA-2? That’s exactly my point for other prototypes. Correct information passed, but proper execution somehow missed. Something to add to the historical society discussion: Some are lightyears better then others. In some cases you are lucky to get the time of day, if you even get a response, let alone help with paint schemes and color codes. Yup. The NP folks are VERY involved in model production and data. Witness the Moloco and Rapido boxcars, for example. I assume also the Tangent cars (That's THREE NP cars folks. Yeah!!!). And they have some GREAT decals and GREAT data to go with them. The SP&S people are very good, especially our Archivist, Rich. He's the one that supplied many of the photos of SP&S FA-2's I sent to Rapido. GN, not so much, though there are models produced by the society. I have a very nice craftsman kit for a GN "single" door baggage car from them. The UP HS has pretty much dropped modeling from their repertoire. This does NOT mean they won't respond to a request for prototype info--I simply don't know about that. Interestingly, there are very few messages on the UP Modelers Group--a big surprise for such a railroad. Ed |
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Post by sd80mac on May 31, 2021 8:32:56 GMT -8
I love this forum because you are assured of a thread on the crappy job XYZ manufacture did on a new model. It is so entertaining each time a manufacture announces a new model I look forward to it being ripped apart on here, funny as hell. Well done boys, keep up the good work. I agree that it is funny as heck. I think a lot of people think this place is "the definitive voice of the hobby", when in reality this forum represents a very small and vocal minority. The average person doesn't care if the truck side frames on a B36-7 are accurate, or the fan shroud on an RS11 is 6 scale inches too tall. For every prototype/detail obsessed modeler, there are 20 that will buy an engine just because it looks cool. These are the people that will run steam engines with intermodal cars and SD70ACes with 40' boxcars and be happy as a clam. Facebook and the myriad of "HO Train" groups are proof that these people represent a much larger chunk of the hobby than some here will care to admit. Now, that's not to say that these errors are acceptable and should be tolerated. A company like Rapido, who seemingly obsesses over 100% prototype accuracy, and who puts out "Master Classes" on almost every model they do, should be held to a higher standard. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 31, 2021 9:16:54 GMT -8
Ed, Are you saying the SP&S HS is not to blame for the color on the FA-2? That’s exactly my point for other prototypes. Correct information passed, but proper execution somehow missed. I don't know where Rapido got their information on SP&S colors. I do know it was apparently different from what I told them. And I do know they never contacted me to reconcile any difference. So. I don't know who else said what else to Rapido. For all I know, the "someone else" and I gave Rapido more or less matching information, and they DID choose the wrong color. I recall that the FA-2's that would have matched the colors applied to the SP&S engines (C&NW) did not come in with all the others. Or. Perhaps. The someone else picked different colors than I. But if I was researching loco colors, I would surely try to reconcile the difference before making a decision. Like contacting each supplier, and describing my problem. Now, there are those here who having been advocating the point that it's more important to keep to a production schedule and to keep (research) costs down than to take that extra time. That would be true for maybe AHM. Or Tyco. Or maybe Trainline??? "Geez, guys. They're just TOYS! Give it a break." But, as pointed out, if you're giving Master Classes on the subject........... Ed |
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Post by fr8kar on May 31, 2021 9:27:00 GMT -8
I think a lot of people think this place is "the definitive voice of the hobby", when in reality this forum represents a very small and vocal minority. Who are these people? Where is this idea coming from? I keep up with Trainboard.com, MRH forums (wide variety of discussion) and Trainorders (photos on the Nostalgia forum; modeling discussion traffic is almost nonexistent compared to other forums) and I haven't run across this opinion of ARF. |
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Post by dstark on May 31, 2021 10:35:24 GMT -8
If that's a cab vent, and it surely does look like it is, where's the "Rotary Beacon", as mentioned majorly by Rapido in the model description? Ed Good question, I haven't found any photos of GN switchers in orange/green paint with beacons that weren't patched BN so post-1970 shots. In the 1968 photo I used above as an example of the vent, GN NW2 131 didn't have a beacon while the SW1500 behind it had a tiny one that I think was EMD factory installed. Many photos suggest these vents were offset to the engineer's side of the cab roof centerline - inconclusive so far if Rapido got that right. I'm guessing these vents had a pantograph or scissor type hinge and popped straight up. This photo looks like BN installed the beacon *on* the vent: www.cnrphotos.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=86328&g2_imageViewsIndex=1Same unit as above (ex BN 163 nee GN 30), no idea if by this date the vent is still functional: www.flickr.com/photos/lastarial/32136131567Doug Stark |
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Post by dstark on May 31, 2021 10:48:35 GMT -8
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 31, 2021 11:26:37 GMT -8
I'm looking through Joseph W. Shine's "Great Northern Color Pictorial Volume 1". On page 39 there's a photo of SW1200 GN 21. The vent is open. In this case, the rear is lifted up, while the front is down. There are other shots of switchers with the vent open in a similar manner Out of 4, only one has a beacon. Nevertheless, at least for the ones Rapido is selling themselves, it says "Rotary Beacon" for the GN and BN versions. So the photo of the GNRHS without one got me wondering:  Ed |
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Post by rounder on May 31, 2021 14:42:38 GMT -8
I think a lot of people think this place is "the definitive voice of the hobby", when in reality this forum represents a very small and vocal minority. Who are these people? Where is this idea coming from? I keep up with Trainboard.com, MRH forums (wide variety of discussion) and Trainorders (photos on the Nostalgia forum; modeling discussion traffic is almost nonexistent compared to other forums) and I haven't run across this opinion of ARF. You haven't seen this sentiment anywhere because it literally does not exist. It is a literal straw man argument. Basically the same three or four people come out of the weeds every time Rapido (rightfully) gets called out for taking liberties. Think about it, when was the last time you saw this behavior on a thread about Athearn errors, for example?
Welcome to the 21st century. Discrediting, ridicule, and misdirection are the new warfare tactics.
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on May 31, 2021 16:02:19 GMT -8
You must have missed the discussion on the Athearn SD60 trucks a few weeks ago. It exists in other places. For example a popular modeler on his Facebook page questioned the color of his Genesis MEC GP7. There were some harsh comments on the post that would bad even for the ARF. Basically saying Athearn is garage, doesn’t listen to modelers, doesn’t care, etc. I think a lot of it has moved to people’s personal social media pages. Even when Athearn does their live videos, comments on there am be rough. Who are these people? Where is this idea coming from? I keep up with Trainboard.com, MRH forums (wide variety of discussion) and Trainorders (photos on the Nostalgia forum; modeling discussion traffic is almost nonexistent compared to other forums) and I haven't run across this opinion of ARF. You haven't seen this sentiment anywhere because it literally does not exist. It is a literal straw man argument. Basically the same three or four people come out of the weeds every time Rapido (rightfully) gets called out for taking liberties. Think about it, when was the last time you saw this behavior on a thread about Athearn errors, for example?
Welcome to the 21st century. Discrediting, ridicule, and misdirection are the new warfare tactics.
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Post by rounder on May 31, 2021 16:32:45 GMT -8
You must have missed the discussion on the Athearn SD60 trucks a few weeks ago. It exists in other places. For example a popular modeler on his Facebook page questioned the color of his Genesis MEC GP7. There were some harsh comments on the post that would bad even for the ARF. Basically saying Athearn is garage, doesn’t listen to modelers, doesn’t care, etc. I think a lot of it has moved to people’s personal social media pages. Even when Athearn does their live videos, comments on there am be rough. You haven't seen this sentiment anywhere because it literally does not exist. It is a literal straw man argument. Basically the same three or four people come out of the weeds every time Rapido (rightfully) gets called out for taking liberties. Think about it, when was the last time you saw this behavior on a thread about Athearn errors, for example?
Welcome to the 21st century. Discrediting, ridicule, and misdirection are the new warfare tactics.
I'm not saying Athearn never gets shredded here. It happens often, And yes I did catch the SD60M truck debacle, I was gearing up to buy a BN whiteface until I saw that.
What I am actually saying is that every manufacturer has their turn at getting shredded on this forum, but **practically no threads have the same four characters trolling the thread, trying to derail it, when a Rapido product is NOT the subject of the discussion**
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Post by pboilermaker on May 31, 2021 16:45:26 GMT -8
So, what you're saying is that it's just too darn time consuming and expensive to do it right. So we won't. Rapido answered that question with the B36-7 steps. Ugh, the B36-7 steps...[sigh]. The bait and switch marketing was bad,to be sure, but the manufacturer response to criticism made it far, far worse. |
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Post by lars on May 31, 2021 17:50:11 GMT -8
Rapido answered that question with the B36-7 steps. Ugh, the B36-7 steps...[sigh]. The bait and switch marketing was bad,to be sure, but the manufacturer response to criticism made it far, far worse. Rapido has been caught a few times announcing now and figuring out later. B36 steps, M420 w/ TCS sound, E unit w/ TCS sound, RS-11 motors, you could possibly throw the SW1200s into that, too. One on hand, it’s a way to get a product to market faster and for them to not commit money to something that isn’t going to work out. On the other, it doesn’t instill a lot of faith in the consumer when some of these things come to light, especially when it seems like they’re missing something quite obvious. The strategy of sitting on the sidelines, as some do here, doesn’t seem like a bad idea and their availability seems decent when a product come out. And, to clarify, I’m not implying that others don’t announce now and plan later, but Rapido has been caught doing it quite a bit recently. And it’s not just trains, either. For some industries it’s become an accepted business model. |
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Post by gevohogger on May 31, 2021 18:02:07 GMT -8
Rapido answered that question with the B36-7 steps. Ugh, the B36-7 steps...[sigh]. The bait and switch marketing was bad,to be sure, but the manufacturer response to criticism made it far, far worse. Indeed. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they used to have a video where they were 3-D scanning some stored ex-CSX B36-7s. That video is now gone. |
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Post by el3672 on May 31, 2021 18:54:02 GMT -8
I Hope the E-8's will be delivered without all these other mentioned production flaws.
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Post by elfan on May 31, 2021 19:08:50 GMT -8
I Hope the E-8's will be delivered without all these other mentioned production flaws. I just hope the EL yellow doesn’t come out looking like GN imitation gold.  Tom |
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Post by slowfreight on Jun 1, 2021 8:14:14 GMT -8
I Hope the E-8's will be delivered without all these other mentioned production flaws. I just hope the EL yellow doesn’t come out looking like GN imitation gold. Tom I just hope I can get the dang thing disassembled and stripped, since I only need it for a kitbash. |
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Post by lars on Jun 1, 2021 8:36:44 GMT -8
I just hope the EL yellow doesn’t come out looking like GN imitation gold. Tom I just hope I can get the dang thing disassembled and stripped, since I only need it for a kitbash. I was just thinking about this a couple days ago as I was considering a picking up a Rapdio RS-11 in PRR to paint in the colors of a fictitious short line. Some of the manufactures comments have ranged from “Sorry, we can’t do this anymore” to “Why can’t you go back to the Blue Box days of stripping a shell.” The problem often isn’t the paint, it’s all the added detail. Back in Blue Box days most everything was molded on and there isn’t much to remove. Now try to add nose stripes or heralds over over something covered in grabs and other glued-on details or trying to mask around all this stuff. In some ways, undecorated models are likely more important now then they were 20 years ago. |
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