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Post by eastonj on May 31, 2021 16:21:50 GMT -8
I bought a Walthers Locomotive that came with a 21 pin Lok Sound Essential, board is marked 5.0.R1. Can you add a power pack to this decoder? Online docs I can find are unclear if this is supported and/or what pads you would solder the wires to.
-Jeff
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Post by Mark R. on Jun 1, 2021 7:29:56 GMT -8
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Post by eastonj on Jun 1, 2021 11:49:27 GMT -8
Thanks Mark.
Yes, I saw that in the manual. However the Sound Essentials card doesnt look like the one on page 49 at all. It has a different number of pads in a different location on the board than the picture shows.
The Walthers motherboard does have two pads marked U+ and Gnd, so the logical assumption is I could wire in a KA or other 2 wire keep alive there, maybe. I should beep out those traces first though if I go that route...
-Jeff
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 1, 2021 15:45:13 GMT -8
Why not call ESU/USA at 570-980-1982?
They were helpful when I called with a question.
Ed
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Post by eastonj on Jun 1, 2021 17:25:31 GMT -8
Thanks Ed.
I will give them a call tomorrow and inquire. If it has the capability for the 3 wire powerpack that would be the best solution as it allows for disabling the cap during programming.
I also ohm'd out the Walthers motherboard and confirmed the two solder pads do connect to Pins 16 (V+) and Pin 20 (Ground) as spec'd in the 21MTC connector specs. It looks like a 2 wire KA can be used here with a caveat about programming. I sent an email to Walthers support to confirm that as well.
-Jeff
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 2, 2021 8:13:11 GMT -8
Jeff,
Write back with what you find out. Please. I have no doubt I'll be in a similar position someday. I recently ordered a Walthers UP SW7.
The question for me might be: does it bother me that the cab has a capacitor filling it up?
Ed
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Post by eastonj on Jun 6, 2021 4:29:05 GMT -8
ESU wasn't answering the phone last week, so I ordered a TCS KA-1 and connected that to the Walthers motherboard and got.. nothing. Pulling the unit from the track the lights and sound immediately cut out just like the cap wasn't there. I pulled out a TCS WOW sound decoder I got for a different project and swapped the ESU Sound Essentials for the TCS and it now works as it should, giving me about 5sec. of on time after I cut track power.
Pulling the CV's in the ESU Sound essential with JMRI appears that the CV's in the normal 5.0 LokSound that deal with the power pack charge time, CV113 etc, are not present in the Essentials decoder.
At this point I'm guessing there is a diode or something on the ESU Essentials decoder preventing the use of the 21 pin interface from feeding the voltage back to the decoder, or pin 16 isn't even connected to anything. I will try calling ESU tech support again on Tuesday.
-Jeff
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jun 6, 2021 5:07:18 GMT -8
A friend of mine who knows a lot about all things ESU says the Essential Sound Units don't support keep alive at all.
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Post by Mark R. on Jun 6, 2021 6:56:39 GMT -8
A friend of mine who knows a lot about all things ESU says the Essential Sound Units don't support keep alive at all. Not sure I agree with that statement. Literally ANY decoder can have a capacitor added to it. The trick is knowing where to attach it. On decoders that don't support it directly, the blue wire is the positive connection. The negative source is the tricky one. You need to determine the diode bridge used for track input rectification. Two of the diodes will show a negative voltage on the inboard side of the bridge. Mark. |
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Post by eastonj on Jun 8, 2021 15:18:13 GMT -8
Connected with ESU Tech Support USA today and they told me the Sound Essentials is a OEM decoder designed to the specs of several Model Railroad manufactures and that it had no support for a Keep Alive or PowerPack. There are 4 diodes near the 21pin connector on the top of the board and another 4 near the connector on the bottom. I guess some probing could help in deciding where to add the blue wire. At this point its looking like a swap to a TCS decoder may be the simplest option.
-Jeff
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 8, 2021 19:01:18 GMT -8
That fits with the responses I got when I asked the question on the ESU group: none. As in: no responses.
So far, the only Loksound Essentials I've got coming is a Walthers SW7. I'm not thrilled about this, and it will have some impact on purchasing locos with ESU Essentials.
I do wonder if there is ANY increase in cost in designing the Essentials to have pads for a Power Pack. And if there was no increase in cost to produce the item, why leave it out? That MAY be a trick question.
Ed
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jun 8, 2021 21:48:35 GMT -8
Don't forget ESU's main business is selling LokSound decoders (whether directly to end users or OEM). The cheaper Essential Sound Unit competes with this, so it makes sense that they have left out functions (programmability, support for keep alive), especially also as purchasers of products containing these are for the most part unlikely to want to reprogram or open up the units to perform surgery.
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Post by riogrande on Jun 9, 2021 3:20:08 GMT -8
So keeping that in mind, what type of Loksound decoder comes factory equipped in ScaleTrains Rivet Counter loco's, which reportedly also come with power packs.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jun 9, 2021 5:13:57 GMT -8
So keeping that in mind, what type of Loksound decoder comes factory equipped in ScaleTrains loco's, which reportedly also come with power packs. Sound-equipped Operator series units originally came with Essential Sound Unit, but now they come with the real deal LokSound decoders. I see no mention of a powerpack installed, but that is mentioned for Rivet counter series units. |
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Post by riogrande on Jun 9, 2021 5:33:34 GMT -8
So keeping that in mind, what type of Loksound decoder comes factory equipped in ScaleTrains loco's, which reportedly also come with power packs. Sound-equipped Operator series units originally came with Essential Sound Unit, but now they come with the real deal LokSound decoders. I see no mention of a powerpack installed, but that is mentioned for Rivet counter series units. Yep, Rivet counter series is what I am talking about. Fixed previous post. |
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Post by Mark R. on Jun 9, 2021 9:38:56 GMT -8
Rivet Counter have always used the full featured off-the-shelf versions.
Mark.
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Post by eastonj on Jun 9, 2021 17:20:08 GMT -8
I do wonder if there is ANY increase in cost in designing the Essentials to have pads for a Power Pack. And if there was no increase in cost to produce the item, why leave it out? That MAY be a trick question. Ed Cost to route the trace from the bridge rectifier to pin 16 on the 21pin interface is essentially $0.00. Whoever wrote up the design spec for the Essential probably forgot about it, and then nobody else involved with the design said anything about it being missing. I can see no logical reason for leaving it out and infact the 21pin interface spec seems to imply its required. Walthers motherboard designer obviously remembered to put a trace and solder pad for V+ and GND on the motherboard. For ESU's 3 wire interface, I think they just use a function output to signal some circuitry like a transistor in the powerpack to disconnect the cap. Cost to provide that on the Essential is also near zero assuming the Aux9 or Aux7 function outputs are already in the design, as the transistor or whatever is in the powerpack I think. -Jeff |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 9, 2021 20:04:50 GMT -8
I do wonder if there is ANY increase in cost in designing the Essentials to have pads for a Power Pack. And if there was no increase in cost to produce the item, why leave it out? That MAY be a trick question. Ed Cost to route the trace from the bridge rectifier to pin 16 on the 21pin interface is essentially $0.00. Whoever wrote up the design spec for the Essential probably forgot about it, and then nobody else involved with the design said anything about it being missing. I can see no logical reason for leaving it out and infact the 21pin interface spec seems to imply its required. Walthers motherboard designer obviously remembered to put a trace and solder pad for V+ and GND on the motherboard. For ESU's 3 wire interface, I think they just use a function output to signal some circuitry like a transistor in the powerpack to disconnect the cap. Cost to provide that on the Essential is also near zero assuming the Aux9 or Aux7 function outputs are already in the design, as the transistor or whatever is in the powerpack I think. -Jeff I kinda intuitively thought that. But a guy on the Loksound Group was saying how "board real estate is expensive"...blah...blah. More to the point: if ESU left the Power Pack option out of the Essential, it would tend to drive replacement boards to the full-feature versions--more profit for ESU. Could PROFIT be a motive for product decisions? Naahhhhh.,...... Ed |
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