Soldering rail joiners or multiple feeders?

[canrailfan]

At our club dinner this week some of us had a discussion about options to power the track.

Two camps emerged, one in favour of soldering rail joints (joiners) and only having one or two feeders per block (depending on the length). The other camp said don't solder but put multiple feeders in each block, with some recommending a feeder for each piece of rail.

The trigger for the discussion was how best to install current detectors for occupancy and signalling purposes. The soldered joints and fewer feeders generally would make wiring the detectors easier.

I'm wondering which approach others have used and what their results were.

[riogrande]

Soldering all rail joiners could be a problem if there is expansion and contraction which would kink or pull joints apart.

[edwardsutorik]

Generally, I solder all the rail joiners in curved track; and I do it while it's still straight. I do not solder rail joiners in straight track.

There are feeder drops for every piece of rail, with rail with soldered joiners being considered a "piece".

I put in expansion joints "where needed". I started doing that after having model sun kinks, and having to consequently re-do some trackage. The expansion joint CAN be in the non-soldered rail joiners, but you have to remember to put a shim in the rail gap while laying the track. I don't think you need expansion joints in a curve, so I don't put them in.

I agree completely with what Jim said.


Your comment about current detectors is not correct. You do not have to put a current detector on EACH rail feeder. You only put ONE in per each block. And you join the various wires together AFTER the detector.


Ed

[riogrande]

Same as Ed, solder on curves, leave straight unsoldered to allow for a bit of expansion/contractions. As for drops, like Ed, if rail is soldered together it's a piece. So far I'm adding a drop every other unsoldered joint. Hopefully that will be ok.

[edwardsutorik]

If you do ALL of them, you don't have to use the word "hopefully".

And don't forget: "will be ok" extends off into the future.



Ed

[canrailfan]

Mar 10, 2022 12:42:17 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

Your comment about current detectors is not correct. You do not have to put a current detector on EACH rail feeder. You only put ONE in per each block. And you join the various wires together AFTER the detector.

Ed

Thanks for that Ed, I suppose what I wrote could be taken that way. With a detector costing about $6.00 that would have added up pretty quickly.

The word I used was "easier" and the context was that with multiple feeders to a block it would be necessary to run a "sub" of one side of the DCC bus under each block to connect the feeders to the detector. The layouts under discussion were 12' x 24' and 11' x 18' with blocks from 3' (CPs) to 15' in length.

Both layouts are in air-conditioned basements. The question of layout benchwork shrinking or swelling is still a factor to be considered.

You mention you solder the rails on curves but not on straight track. Are you using flex-track or going hand-laid?

David

[nsc39d8]

In the years I have had several discussions with my Brit friend about layout building and how it is done in the UK.

First point he mentioned was two feeder drops per each section of track, so four feed wires per 3ft section of track. Reason being if a feeder failed in that section you don't have to disturb scenery/ballast for a repair. This adds up and I just used one set of feeders per flex track section and turnout.

Second was if your track work is good there is no need for rail joiners. I did follow this advice to some extent. I did not place rail joiners in the straight sections of track, I did place 0.010 gaps between each section of track. I tried to lay the most curves and turnout curves with out joiners. If the track could not maintain the bend then I inserted rail joiners. Sometimes just one to help maintain rail alignment. The rail joiners I used were either Micro Engineering or another of the smaller joiners. I did use some Walthers track and joiners in places. Most track was Code 83 with some 100 in hidden places.  And yes there were places where I did have to solder the joints to maintain good rail alignment.

Third was on how to solder the feeders. I was taught how to solder the feeders to the underside of the rail. This being there is now no unsightly solder joint on the side of the rail(also goes to why using four feeders makes sense). This also went to why you might need to use hand laid turnouts in places and glue all track without drilling holes of nails in the ties.

A few things from my experience in build my layout, which cover a 20' by 35' area. I would recommend a flex track that maintains any bend you place in it. This helps as you are not fighting the track while placing it down, also helps to eliminate joiners.
Decide which type of turnout control you will be using. I had used the Caboose Industries ground throws but the size of the HO just looks enormous. I opted for sprung throws like ME and Peco. Walthers has started using this type on their new line of turnouts.
Where I need a control for a turnout I used under the table hand operated, like the Bullfrog from Fasttracks or Blue Point from New rail. Tortoise switch machines are nice but the extra wiring gets to be a lot. Of course this would help since you want occupancy detection and the Tortoise has the extra wire connections to help with that.

I know this is a lot and I do hope it helps out.

[riogrande]

I actually have found Atlas flex track (which does not hold a bend) is easiest to work with and easiest to get a smooth flowing curve. With the stiff track such as MicroEngineering, I have to fight with it a lot to get smooth curves, plus you have to tweak the ties to get them even. With Atlas flex, you pin it down about every 4 or 5 inches and get a nice smooth curve.

With my current under construction layout, I've switched to Peco code 83 flex. It is sort of in-between Atlas and ME flex. It flexes fairly easy but partially holds its shape; it took me a little getting used to but is pretty easy to form and lay. I dont' have to work it a lot like ME flex. I am using track nails to hold it down but after it is ballasted and fixed in place, I can pull the nails out.







Minimum radius is 32"

[edwardsutorik]

Mar 10, 2022 17:51:41 GMT -8 canrailfan said:

The word I used was "easier" and the context was that with multiple feeders to a block it would be necessary to run a "sub" of one side of the DCC bus under each block to connect the feeders to the detector. The layouts under discussion were 12' x 24' and 11' x 18' with blocks from 3' (CPs) to 15' in length.

I can see the need to run one "extra" parallel wire to get around the one that's now downstream of the detector. Plus it IS more work to tag all the feeder drops.

Both layouts are in air-conditioned basements. The question of layout benchwork shrinking or swelling is still a factor to be considered.

In my experience, temperature affects metal; and humidity affects wood. With AC, you should have minimal problems (if you store your wood in the space for "awhile" before cutting and building). But there's not much downside for including for expansion joints., and a big upside if your calculations are wrong.

I can certainly see cutting back on the size and quantity of them, in your case. But if you chose to solder up EVERY rail joiner, I think you would regret it, even with the AC.

You mention you solder the rails on curves but not on straight track. Are you using flex-track or going hand-laid?

In this case, it's flex track. I would do the same for hand-laid.


Ed

[nsc39d8]

Jim,

I agree that it is a lot of work to use ME flex track and now with ME's uncertain future, who knows.
I also used Precision Scale elevated track and it is even harder to work with in curves.

I appreciate the pictures of the Peco track in use as I am looking a building a photo diorama at some point and I have used Peco Turnouts but not the track.
I used the Peco track fixing nails as well and plan on removing them after ballasting as you do. I like the Peco nails because of the small size, you do need to drill a guide hole for these, they bend really easy.

[edwardsutorik]

Like James, I solder to the bottom of the rail. I use a resistance soldering setup. It does take some thought and practice to pull it off. I also solder a wire to the frog. And I solder a wire to each of the points. I haven't ballasted under the points, yet, so I can't swear that there isn't a problem there. I use 4-pair cable as a wire source for this--it's pretty small.

I wouldn't put two wires to one piece of rail. Not until I had had a problem. And that's not happened yet. NOT saying it won't, however.

With this method, it's not necessary to drill a hole right under the joint. The wire is small enough that it can come out the side, between the ties. It will be covered by ballast later. Of course, you want this run to be VERY short, because of resistance losses.

I am wary of laying track through a curve without rail joiners and solder. IF you can pull it off, great! It would seem you'd REALLY need to achor the two rail ends, though.


Ed

[Gino Damen]

I build modular (modules). But even on a segment (usually 90 cm long) I put a feeder to each piece of track (the underside) and only solder joiners if the piece of rails is less than 10 cm. All the other track is connected using Peco rail joiners. I have seen a lot of movement depending on the weather and locations were the modules are put together. Even those short lengths of a module the gap in a rail can disappear or be as large as 4 mm.

[cera2254]

Riogrande, my favorite aspect of Peco track is that the joiners will slip above the ties so you don’t have to remove ties for joints.

I too solder all curves while they are still straight and then flex to fit.

[Gino Damen]

That is not mine experience. The switches can accommodate the rail joiners even the plastic isolating version. The flextrack can't. You need to remove the railshoe details to keep the track laying flat.

[riogrande]

Mar 15, 2022 13:30:38 GMT -8 Gino Damen said:

That is not mine experience. The switches can accommodate the rail joiners even the plastic isolating version. The flextrack can't. You need to remove the railshoe details to keep the track laying flat.

That is my experience too. And with the turnouts, sometimes I need to trim the plastic joiners to get them to slide on properly.