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Post by WP 257 on Jul 30, 2014 20:48:15 GMT -8
Geodyssey--
MTH's smoke looks about the same as BLI's smoke--yet people don't seem to hate on BLI. Why is that?
All the model steamers I've ever seen smoke white. Even the large scale live steamers smoke basically "white" in color (if the smoke is visible much at all). I don't ever hear about people hating on the live steamers for smoking white?
As far as the "clickety-clack" sound, MRC offers the very same sound in some of the inexpensive sound systems they sell, and again, in DCS, those sounds are very easily turned off.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2014 20:52:42 GMT -8
Corner the market is exactly what they tried to do. They expected HO scale modelers to embrace all of the gimmicks found in their O-scale toy train products. Smoke, "clickly-clack" sounds, station announcements, simulated radio transmissions...all gimmicks. Their website still boasts the "advances" DCS supposedly has over DCC, and while it may work fully with their locomotives, they will have an extremely tough time trying to convert the masses, which is the reason they now include more DCC compatibility.
So yeah, it was a little more than, "a simple move to HO..."
Donnell Donnell, I respect you a ton but I disagree with your use of the word gimmick. Regardless of whether it's MTH or any other manufacturer, I do not consider smoke, clickity clack sounds, station announcements and simulated radio transmissions gimmicks. I can somewhat see the station announcements and radio transmissions but the other sounds and features are a way to enhance a model to look or sound like the prototype. Prototype steamers smoke, prototype locomotives clickity clack, well it's mostly the rolling stock but still the sound is made. So I don't know that some of those features are really gimmicks. Many people thought the MTH ES44AC Demo unit was gimmicky for having those charging lights, but they're real so how can mirroring what the prototype does be gimmicky?
The definition of gimmick is " a trick or device intended to attract attention, publicity, or business." So I guess anything can be a gimmick because every manufacturer wants those three things...but I just think that word is thrown around too much with mean spirited intent.
I'm not talking about just MTH, but anytime that word is thrown out to any manufacturer. But, in your defense I guess with that definition, it's entirely subjective.
As to the intent of MTH by creating DCS, I have no idea what their plans were. Only the people that worked there at the time would know. It could have been as simple as trying to introduce an alternative means for the market to enjoy trains or it could have been an evil plot to take over the world, I have no idea. -James
In DCS F23 is train wreck. If that is not a gimmick, then it is totally absurd. Station sounds, crew sounds usually come out garbled and sound horrible. The smoke coming out of the steam locomotive models resembles an e-cigarette a whole lot more than the prototype. If anyone thinks the fake smoke, which is bad for anyone with respiratory problems, looks like the prototype....then you've never seen a real steam locomotive. The diesel exhaust is just as weak, if not more. Let us not forget the MTH automatic coupler, which is makes a Kadee number 5 look small. Place it side by side with a Sergent and the MTH's toy train underpinnings is clearly showing. MTH's catalog is straight out of three rail O. MTH set out to bring three rail O to HO, including FORCING people into DCS. They've done that in O gauge. Thankfully the public backlash was so severe when the first MTH models came to the market, that MTH has softened its stance and made them a bit more DCC friendly. I'm no fan of MTH, I've made my feelings felt on this and other forums time and time again. I've worked in a hobby shop and seen their O gauge stuff. I've had many an O gauge hobbyist say they'd never have an MTH product, because of DCS. All other three rail manufacturers use the Lionel system. MTH sits like an island all by itself. The hatred that exists between Lionel and MTH is well documented. Lionel has been the subject of several of MTH's lawsuits. Like many, I severely dislike MTH's litigious path and feel it is far more detrimental to the hobby than even the China debacle.
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 30, 2014 21:00:42 GMT -8
I'm not here to defend the owners of MTH, but it's also true that other manufacturers can also be bull-headed stubborn and litigious. There is no monopoly on stupidity or being litigious.
The MTH engines generally run very well and do what they say they will do, period. Stuff doesn't fall off them while they run, and they don't arrive with all kinds of stuff broken or loose on them, as sometimes occurs with other manufacturers.
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Post by riogrande on Jul 31, 2014 3:36:57 GMT -8
As for MTH's proprietary digital system, it's up to the individual if they feel it is worth it or not. I've been totally on the side lines with DCS because MTH has never offered any HO engines I want or need so it's been a non-issue. I can see the argument that going proprietary is a bad move but if that's true, the market will be the judge just like it was when the computer industry rejected the IBM proprietary PC architecture and went with the open industry standard. The question is, do you cast your wallet with a closed system or go with what is open, at least in my mind, whether or not you feel some of their features are gimmicks are truly add to realism.
Cheers, Jim
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Post by Donnell Wells on Jul 31, 2014 5:25:44 GMT -8
Geodyssey-- MTH's smoke looks about the same as BLI's smoke--yet people don't seem to hate on BLI. Why is that? All the model steamers I've ever seen smoke white. Even the large scale live steamers smoke basically "white" in color (if the smoke is visible much at all). I don't ever hear about people hating on the live steamers for smoking white? As far as the "clickety-clack" sound, MRC offers the very same sound in some of the inexpensive sound systems they sell, and again, in DCS, those sounds are very easily turned off. I was never really a fan of smoke in HO-scale locomotives even back when BLI came out with its first steam locomotive in 2002-2003. But since you brought it up, they too used "realistic smoke" as a selling point to differentiate their product over others, which was fairly easy as they had no real competition at the time.
Now, these things are generally accepted with O-scale trains, namely tinplate and toy trains, where they are seen as more of a novelty than a realistically scaled attribute of a train locomotive.
Regarding live steam, the smoke issue is entirely different as the locomotive, no matter the scale, is an actual working steam locomotive, every bit as much as it's full sized prototype. The color of the smoke is somewhat irrelevant as it has more to do with the type of fuel used and the the combustion process itself. Prototype steam engines also exhausted various colors of smoke from white to grimy black.
Donnell
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 31, 2014 6:03:18 GMT -8
People have often, at least in the past, complained about the "white" color of the model train smoke, while failing to remember that on a cold day, the prototype smoke was indeed white, maybe not on this thread, but on others.
As for the "realistic smoke" as a "selling point", I always thought they were referring to the amount of smoke produced, and not so much the color of the smoke.
Today, thanks to fan advancements, etc. both the MTH and BLI steamers produce prodigious quantities of smoke, that can fill a 24' x 30' basement with a cloud of it in no time at all, as I can attest from firsthand experience.
Some want smoke (like my son and his friends--who--oh wait--we wring our hands about trying to attract to this hobby) and some do not. Simple question: Why do we need to 'dis the very folks we are hoping to attract to "save" this "dying" hobby??
If somebody actually likes the station sounds and the smoke, why does that make them somehow an "inferior" modeler to the "real" modelers who would never actually play with those features? Maybe I'm reaching here a bit--but that's the attitude I generally have perceived. Thread after thread has discussed how this hobby is dying, how various litigious companies are somehow ruining the hobby along with the ever increasing prices, and then we turn around and denigrate the very kids we are somehow hoping to attract by saying the smoke is stupid, juvenile or what-have-you (fill in the blank).
My own father, who is currently about to turn 81, loves the station sounds and the smoke and the lights and the illuminated passenger cars. He has loved all those trains that offered that stuff, and my best memories in this life (besides playing baseball with him) are running the trains with my Dad. No model I can ever buy, build or detail will ever come close to the satisfaction of simply running the trains with Dad or playing baseball with my boys.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 31, 2014 6:26:05 GMT -8
Hey guys,
I'll be the first to say that I often flamed MTH in the past on one of the forums regarding the "threats of litigation" years back. Most of us are also aware of the Lionel vs MTH scenarios, the reported issues with customer service, and what seems to be a method of advertising that comes across as arrogant.
But let's be considerate of the OP and the intent of his thread. He was invited to MTH to look at their latest offerings and shared his observations with us just as he does with products from Walthers, Athearn, Bachmann, Kato, and the other manufacturers/vendors. He's not peddling the products.
A number of us have had issues with MTH (myself included). However, bashing DCS and the "gimmicks" is only inviting a flame war to start.
I'm not going to be a hypocrite and say that I dislike their products, even though I don't own any. I'm impressed with their upcoming subway cars and their previously released Empire State Express. I sincerely hope that in the short term, MIke and Andy work hard to improve MTH's image and customer service reputation in the HO market.
A former student of mine who is now in his early 20's likes MTH products. It doesn't bother him at all that his HO steamer's smoke is not prototypical. He made me realize that his generation knows or cares little about MTH's past and that 5 or 10 years from now as me, my friends, and those of us born in the 1960s-70s grow more gray hair, a good number of the young "techno-geek" modelers may become regular MTH customers. But when it comes to customer service, today's young generation is generally more demanding then baby boomers. Don't forget that younger consumers are often the first to complain about bad service, whip out the "IPAD", and spread the word on Facebook, Twitter, Google, and a host of other websites that many of us older guys don't bother with. Word gets out at incredible speed!
Imho, MTH will change to a more positive tune because, as a business, it will have no choice if the intent is to remain in the HO market.
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 31, 2014 6:39:20 GMT -8
I have had only excellent, first rate customer service from MTH. One of my several (at the time) SD70ACe's had a bad motor that also melted the body. It ran ok--just hot--and the damage was not immediate, but over time as it "broke-in".
MTH honored the warranty and sent me a very nearly brand new engine with a new body of the correct roadname. I just had to wait several weeks for them to have the correct body in stock again (UP Heritage MKT).
How many other manufacturers make more bodies just to have some available? Maybe I was lucky that at the time they were running more models of that one? Idk. However, I do know that with most manufacturers, if you need a body, you most likely will not get the roadname you previously had, unless they have a parts unit on hand to take it from.
IMO there was no issue, and their customer service was very professional and timely. As has been pointed out, my 7 year old son and his friends don't care about the lawsuits, but they are impressed by cool trains that do more than just run around a track. I don't currently own a single MTH anything, but I don't consider them to be the evil great Satan either. I'd be fine with owning something Santa Fe if it was what I needed.
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Post by atsfan on Jul 31, 2014 6:50:02 GMT -8
As for MTH's proprietary digital system, it's up to the individual if they feel it is worth it or not. I've been totally on the side lines with DCS because MTH has never offered any HO engines I want or need so it's been a non-issue. I can see the argument that going proprietary is a bad move but if that's true, the market will be the judge just like it was when the computer industry rejected the IBM proprietary PC architecture and went with the open industry standard. The question is, do you cast your wallet with a closed system or go with what is open, at least in my mind, whether or not you feel some of their features are gimmicks are truly add to realism. Cheers, Jim Good point. Also I want to point out that MTH engines work with DC, DCS, and also, DCC. That is if you can use an MTH engine with the MTH board on a DCC layout. So today, I doubt there is ANYONE who ONLY uses DCS on an HO layout. There are some who have the MTH commander unit installed on a DCC layout to use both DCS and DCC on the same layout. My point or question is, is MTH going to offer for sale boards to install in non MTH engines such that they will operate the same way as an MTH engine does today?
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Post by atsfan on Jul 31, 2014 6:52:03 GMT -8
If anyone uses Apple products (Mac or iOS) or Android, they are using proprietary systems. In Apple's case they are also using systems that only work on the hardware that Apple says it will work on and fully controls.
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Post by Donnell Wells on Jul 31, 2014 8:45:37 GMT -8
People have often, at least in the past, complained about the "white" color of the model train smoke, while failing to remember that on a cold day, the prototype smoke was indeed white, maybe not on this thread, but on others. As for the "realistic smoke" as a "selling point", I always thought they were referring to the amount of smoke produced, and not so much the color of the smoke. Today, thanks to fan advancements, etc. both the MTH and BLI steamers produce prodigious quantities of smoke, that can fill a 24' x 30' basement with a cloud of it in no time at all, as I can attest from firsthand experience. Some want smoke (like my son and his friends--who--oh wait--we wring our hands about trying to attract to this hobby) and some do not. Simple question: Why do we need to 'dis the very folks we are hoping to attract to "save" this "dying" hobby?? If somebody actually likes the station sounds and the smoke, why does that make them somehow an "inferior" modeler to the "real" modelers who would never actually play with those features? Maybe I'm reaching here a bit--but that's the attitude I generally have perceived. Thread after thread has discussed how this hobby is dying, how various litigious companies are somehow ruining the hobby along with the ever increasing prices, and then we turn around and denigrate the very kids we are somehow hoping to attract by saying the smoke is stupid, juvenile or what-have-you (fill in the blank). My own father, who is currently about to turn 81, loves the station sounds and the smoke and the lights and the illuminated passenger cars. He has loved all those trains that offered that stuff, and my best memories in this life (besides playing baseball with him) are running the trains with my Dad. No model I can ever buy, build or detail will ever come close to the satisfaction of simply running the trains with Dad or playing baseball with my boys. I don't believe that I dissed anyone, let alone new modelers entering the hobby, nor was I inferring that anyone was inferior because they liked MTH sound. People like what they like, and that's perfectly fine.
What I did point out is that MTH uses attributes other than those directly related to the product itself to sell the product.
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 31, 2014 8:51:00 GMT -8
I have had only excellent, first rate customer service from MTH. One of my several (at the time) SD70ACe's had a bad motor that also melted the body. It ran ok--just hot--and the damage was not immediate, but over time as it "broke-in". MTH honored the warranty and sent me a very nearly brand new engine with a new body of the correct roadname. I just had to wait several weeks for them to have the correct body in stock again (UP Heritage MKT). How many other manufacturers make more bodies just to have some available? Maybe I was lucky that at the time they were running more models of that one? Idk. However, I do know that with most manufacturers, if you need a body, you most likely will not get the roadname you previously had, unless they have a parts unit on hand to take it from. IMO there was no issue, and their customer service was very professional and timely. As has been pointed out, my 7 year old son and his friends don't care about the lawsuits, but they are impressed by cool trains that do more than just run around a track. I totally agree with your post. We as adults are aware of lawsuits and such, but kids aren't. Personally, I'd like to see some parent explain to their kids they can't have Thomas or Chugginton because of copyright infringements, etc. I remember as a 11 year old kid purchasing my first train set with my saved up allowance, & taking a subway ride out to Playworld in Astoria, Queens, and purchasing my first AHM HO set that had a Santa Fe steamer and passenger cars with no interiors or lights. And I thought that set was the holy grail and no one could tell me anything was better. What 11 year old cared if it was prototypical, all I cared about was watching the exact Santa Fe train run around my floor which reminded me of the same one I saw on a family trip as a younger kid to Christmas Village in PA. Mind you, I lived in the Northeast at the time, and other than on TV, never seen anything Santa Fe related. It had all the bells & whistles, freight cars with sliding doors, a watchmen that popped out of a shack every time the crossing gates went down and a bunch of plastic telephone poles with no wires. My friends said it was "cheesy" looking but I stuck with it and expanded. Had I listened to them, I probably wouldn't have stuck with it and would have gotten into the new "video game" rage coming down the pike during the 70's. Co-incidentally, it led me to buying so much HO stock over the next several years, I could have opened my own hobby store. Fast forward a few decades later, and although I upgraded quite a bit, I realized after taking my 2 youngsters to their first train show, they were literally immobilized by a steamer which was click clacking down the tracks & puffing smoke. Just so happens, it was a MTH Santa Fe passenger set. I heard grumbles from others standing around the layout that day that the locomotive seemed "hokey" or "toy like" but did it get my kids interested in something other than video games....YEP! Did my kids hear the old codgers grumbling....YEP! Did they love the trains and wanted Dad to buy them a locomotive just like the one on the layout....YEP! Did they care if it was MTH....NOPE!
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 31, 2014 9:29:40 GMT -8
Donnell--
My post wasn't directed specifically at you. I was speaking in general terms. You did not offend me and I hope I didn't offend you. I was referring to the attitudes I have perceived, nothing more.
I'm asking general, somewhat big or "open-ended" questions to try to make a point.
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Post by Spikre on Jul 31, 2014 10:16:46 GMT -8
MTH has Original Freight Cars? the 60' flat has been out at least 5 years maybe longer? very close to the IMRC car. the 53'Gondola seems to be the same Prototype as the Proto Erie/Greenville gondola. the 2 Bay USRA hopper is very close to the Accu-Rail car, but maybe with the wrong trucks ? so why did Bachman also do the same car ? the 40' PS-1 with 6' door is similar to a number of PS-1s already on the market. the 40' PFE Wood Reefer seems similar to the Tichy R-30 whatever.or the Red Caboose R-30-9/R-30-12. the Aquarium car is Unique,it should run well with a Sound equipped Stockcar from an Adversery Company. so what besides the Aquarium car is Unique ? it should be noted that the video hasn't been watched,and most likely wont ever be watched. [ not Your fault James] Spikre
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Post by Donnell Wells on Jul 31, 2014 10:36:59 GMT -8
Donnell-- My post wasn't directed specifically at you. I was speaking in general terms. You did not offend me and I hope I didn't offend you. I was referring to the attitudes I have perceived, nothing more. I'm asking general, somewhat big or "open-ended" questions to try to make a point. Well, I do appreciate that, and I hope I didn't offend you as well. I have nothing personally against MTH products, in fact I actually think they did a nice job on the GEVOs and Dash 9. However, from a retail standpoint, they had some real odd business practices that just led me to steer clear of the company altogether. I suppose it doesn't help to mention my unbridled affinity for Athearn offerings, though I still like to believe that my opinion on other manufacturers' products remains unbiased (to an extent!)
Donnell
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 10:48:21 GMT -8
Some want smoke (like my son and his friends--who--oh wait--we wring our hands about trying to attract to this hobby) and some do not. Simple question: Why do we need to 'dis the very folks we are hoping to attract to "save" this "dying" hobby?? So do you still have all these steam engines to entertain the kid? I seem to recall you said interest waned and you are now using NON-smoking diesels or more traditional models? I don't care if the smoke is from Mikey or BLI, it may be able to put out volume, but it still isn't puffing out realistically. Steam exhaust looks like clouds in the sky coming out, but models can't even copy steam from boiling water correctly. Its just smoke billowing out of the stack it doesn't look anywhere near a real steam engine. If somebody actually likes the station sounds and the smoke, why does that make them somehow an "inferior" modeler to the "real" modelers who would never actually play with those features? Maybe I'm reaching here a bit--but that's the attitude I generally have perceived. Thread after thread has discussed how this hobby is dying, how various litigious companies are somehow ruining the hobby along with the ever increasing prices, and then we turn around and denigrate the very kids we are somehow hoping to attract by saying the smoke is stupid, juvenile or what-have-you (fill in the blank). These models are too darned expensive to be aimed at kids. The models are aimed at the people with the money in their pocket. Some adults are turned on by the toy train mystic. They just do it in HO scale. They also will generally not take realism in scale seriously. To them, their HO trains are truly toys and not models. There are some that will run an HO train around an oval on a 4x8 sheet of plywood at a scale 100 mph because they have a train painted Amtrak. There are three rail O MODELERS. People that like the size and assortment which you can get with three rail O. Atlas O wouldn't be a fraction of its size if it were only catering to two rail O scale modelers. Atlas is run by smart people and knew three rail was going to pay the bills and they have a near monopoly on 3 rail O scale track and rolling stock. Both Lionel and MTH have not been sleeping and over equipment which is modeled to scale AND is detailed to prototype. I had a Lionel B&O EM-1 which measured about two feet in length with tender and an N&W A-Class and J-Class both true O scale models. They just ran on three rails. I've seen many three rail O scale modelers build true scale layouts in the pages of Kalmbach's Classic Toy Trains. These layouts were as good as many in HO and N. But station sounds, which are generic and are something that Lionel and MTH have been installing in their three rail sound locomotives for nearly 20 years. The fan on the smoke was put in by both Lionel and MTH 20 years ago too. All of this is stuff that started in three rail and was migrated to HO. A lot of the sounds on HO are nonsense. Like clanking couplers, which you have to manually fire on the DCC throttle. Most HO decoders could do away with all but the prime mover, air compressor, dynamic brake(even that is iffy), horn and bell and many wouldn't miss the missing sounds. Automatic push button couplers is something Lionel rolled out in the 1950's. Putting it on an HO model is a gimmick especially when the size of the coupler is so much larger than even a Kadee number 5. But, if you want to bring some of the three rail O shtick to HO and that is okay if you like it. But that bulbous MTH auto coupler is hardly scale and many reject the coupler as toy like. Heck, might as well get out the old X2F if we want to keep the toy train set mentality going. My own father, who is currently about to turn 81, loves the station sounds and the smoke and the lights and the illuminated passenger cars. He has loved all those trains that offered that stuff, and my best memories in this life (besides playing baseball with him) are running the trains with my Dad. No model I can ever buy, build or detail will ever come close to the satisfaction of simply running the trains with Dad or playing baseball with my boys. Touching story, but I bet he also can fondly remember the post-war era of Lionel. I bet many of his opinions are formed by the Lionel trains you'd find set up in stores during Christmas after the war and up until about 1960. I'll also bet he would love to see the same features in a three rail layout. HO can be toy trains too and MTH is the company that is appealing to those people and producing the products that will get the HO toy train enthusiast to part with their money.
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 31, 2014 12:25:44 GMT -8
Hi Tommy-Trudy-Naomi--
Since you asked, my youngest son has one BLI Santa Fe 4-8-4, with smoke, sound, etc. I actually had sold all my steam power, and then the youngest boy wanted one engine. I showed him a bunch of photos of what was available and he picked the one he wanted--which happened to be the Santa Fe one (I would've gladly just as well bought an N&W J). I sold some diesels to pay for it, too. It's his engine, but yes, I run it for him when he asks--he doesn't usually just run it himself (though he can and has). It is kept on a shelf above the layout so neighbor children can't touch it when they are over and I'm not there, or is parked inside a tunnel when on the layout for the same reason. He could run it flat out full speed and it will stay on the track without any issues.
The smoke puffs out in time with the cam on the drive axle, so in a sense it is as "realistic" as one is ever going to get in a 1:87 scale model. It actually produces a considerable volume of smoke.
As for my father, he well remembers pre-WWII Lionel trains; he traded the last ones in on my first HO trainset as they were worn out. It was my father who installed the Seuthe smoke units in the Mantua kit steamers he built for me as a child, and so yes, my father loves toy trains--HO, O or otherwise. He also built all the custom angled benchwork for my around the walls basement layout.
The point is: unless the "model" does more than run around in circles, kids aren't going to be attracted to it very well at all. There's little excitement there to compare with the video games...It's not awful for some folks to want sound, smoke, and LED lights.
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Post by carrman on Jul 31, 2014 14:33:48 GMT -8
Once upon a time I reviewed the MTH Little Joe for MRN. Thought it was a decent locomotive, but it just wasn't happy running on DCC. It would respond sluggishly to throttle commands or not at all. I couldn't change the address of the engine; I had to go to my editors house and have him do it with his DCS system. The final straw for me was the canned station announcements stating that the Olympian Hiawatha was now arriving in Chicago. That Joe must have had a hell of a long extension cord to get it there from Montana. I gave it a decent review, but once it was published, even though I love the Milwaukee, I sold it to someone in Germany who planned on gutting the DCS out of it and making it more of a prototype model. Thus endeth my experience with MTH products, and I'll not revisit them again.
Dave
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Post by atsfan on Jul 31, 2014 15:26:41 GMT -8
Once upon a time I reviewed the MTH Little Joe for MRN. Thought it was a decent locomotive, but it just wasn't happy running on DCC. It would respond sluggishly to throttle commands or not at all. I couldn't change the address of the engine; I had to go to my editors house and have him do it with his DCS system. The final straw for me was the canned station announcements stating that the Olympian Hiawatha was now arriving in Chicago. That Joe must have had a hell of a long extension cord to get it there from Montana. I gave it a decent review, but once it was published, even though I love the Milwaukee, I sold it to someone in Germany who planned on gutting the DCS out of it and making it more of a prototype model. Thus endeth my experience with MTH products, and I'll not revisit them again. Dave If one applied the same standard to cars, computers, phones, etc, etc, you would not be posting here or driving to work...............
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Post by jlwii2000 on Jul 31, 2014 15:47:30 GMT -8
All I can say for MTH is this. They are younger than most other companies. They are improving (DCC ready locomotives, putting Kadee couplers as options for modelers, etc).
All I ask for from ANY company is that they don't throw up an astronomically high B.S. price for a product that doesn't warrant the price, work on improving their products, and listen to the customer.
I can name a few companies big or small that aren't 3 for 3. MTH is 3 for 3 on my list of things I demand from a company.
Other people's lists might vary because they're not me. I get that...lots of opinions out there. If your list includes 100% DCC and nothing proprietary, or gimmick free then they aren't going to get a perfect score on your list. If that's you, I respect your opinion as well. I just deal with facts as much as I can, injecting opinion on occasion. My only opinion stated in the video was that MTH's future looked bright.
-James
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 16:12:22 GMT -8
The point is: unless the "model" does more than run around in circles, kids aren't going to be attracted to it very well at all. There's little excitement there to compare with the video games...It's not awful for some folks to want sound, smoke, and LED lights. Why is there all this hub bub about bringing kids into the hobby. Old proverb said "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". All the effort by adults to get their kids and other children interested in the hobby is working out how? Dragging a kid to a train show and all the other tactics to "expose" them to modeling is by enlarge not exactly filling up the local hobby shop with teens and pre-teens. In all the years I've gone to my trains only hobby shop, I've only seen one teenager buying some stuff with their parent. I asked the owner and he said that he has a few youngsters that come in on a regular or occasional basis. Children will gravitate to the hobby of model railroading with or without all the gadgets, gizmos and theater IF THEY ARE TRULY INTERESTED. Trains haven't been "cool" with other kids for a long time. When my classmates found out I liked trains(HO scale) in the early 1970's, I was relentlessly teased about it. It was VERY embarrassing and really took the fun out of trains. Trains and model building has even when I was kid, and I'm in my 50's, been associated with the geeks and loners. I'm sure it is worse today as we do live in a "social" up to the minute world. My interest in trains wasn't really rekindled until 1976 when my dad took me to the NMRA National Train Show in Rosemont(Chicago). But unlike my reawakening, when an Athearn FP45 could be purchased for about $14, we have prices on the next run of the Atlas Trainman, the "entry level" line, EMD GP39 clocking in at $140 MSRP without sound. How many kids can afford THAT on their allowance? In your own words, a kid needs sound, smoke, etc. to have their interest stirred in model railroading. A sound Atlas Trainman GP39 is $240 MSRP. How many parents are going to spend that amount of money? Not many. MANY parents CAN'T spend money like that on something their child may cast aside in a month or two. There are MANY model railroaders that can't justify that kind of money for that model. This kerfuffle over kids and model railroading comes up constantly on this forum and on all modeling forums, including plastic kits such as cars, tanks, planes, etc.. The fact is well intentioned adults seem to think that dragging junior or missy by the scruff of the neck to shows, the basement to see dad's toys, hobby shop, etc. is going to get the kid to roll over and adopt the hobby. Ain't happening. Let the child come to the hobby and they will stay a lot longer. Either they are interested or they are not. Live with it. Some adults approach getting a child interested in a hobby, like the Soviets and Chinese used to "reeducate" those that opposed the regime.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2014 16:47:46 GMT -8
It's his engine, but yes, I run it for him when he asks--he doesn't usually just run it himself (though he can and has). It is kept on a shelf above the layout so neighbor children can't touch it when they are over and I'm not there, or is parked inside a tunnel when on the layout for the same reason. What a shame. It's the child's locomotive, but has to wait for dad to be around to see run it himself or see dad run it. If the child comes home from school with his friend Igor and the two kids want to run it they can't, because dad isn't home. Reason? Its DAD'S LAYOUT and the PRICE on the model is so much, is what I assume. SOME kid's can be very destructive and I knew them when I was a kid. When I was a chile, I valued my toys and kept them in excellent condition. There are many that were and are like me and don't destroy but care for their possessions. So I get the parental controls when you are talking about a $300 model. In order to cultivate kids in the hobby of model railroading they need to have their OWN stuff. They need to be able to use it when THEY want to use it. Waiting for daddy to come home just takes the edge off of the moment and the kid goes and does something else....that they DON'T need daddy's approval or physical being. I knew a set of identical twin who were both really superb modelers in junior high. They had crazy skills when it came to assembling plastic kits and their paint work was incredible. The brothers didn't need have mom and dad in the room with them when they were building kits. They could be trusted by their parents to work safely. Now with price and nanny syndrome, where parents expect the worse every minute of the day with their kids, its no wonder modeling or all sorts is not popular with youngsters.
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Post by atsfan on Jul 31, 2014 17:42:14 GMT -8
The point is: unless the "model" does more than run around in circles, kids aren't going to be attracted to it very well at all. There's little excitement there to compare with the video games...It's not awful for some folks to want sound, smoke, and LED lights. Why is there all this hub bub about bringing kids into the hobby. Old proverb said "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink". All the effort by adults to get their kids and other children interested in the hobby is working out how? Dragging a kid to a train show and all the other tactics to "expose" them to modeling is by enlarge not exactly filling up the local hobby shop with teens and pre-teens. In all the years I've gone to my trains only hobby shop, I've only seen one teenager buying some stuff with their parent. I asked the owner and he said that he has a few youngsters that come in on a regular or occasional basis. Children will gravitate to the hobby of model railroading with or without all the gadgets, gizmos and theater IF THEY ARE TRULY INTERESTED. Trains haven't been "cool" with other kids for a long time. When my classmates found out I liked trains(HO scale) in the early 1970's, I was relentlessly teased about it. It was VERY embarrassing and really took the fun out of trains. Trains and model building has even when I was kid, and I'm in my 50's, been associated with the geeks and loners. I'm sure it is worse today as we do live in a "social" up to the minute world. My interest in trains wasn't really rekindled until 1976 when my dad took me to the NMRA National Train Show in Rosemont(Chicago). But unlike my reawakening, when an Athearn FP45 could be purchased for about $14, we have prices on the next run of the Atlas Trainman, the "entry level" line, EMD GP39 clocking in at $140 MSRP without sound. How many kids can afford THAT on their allowance? In your own words, a kid needs sound, smoke, etc. to have their interest stirred in model railroading. A sound Atlas Trainman GP39 is $240 MSRP. How many parents are going to spend that amount of money? Not many. MANY parents CAN'T spend money like that on something their child may cast aside in a month or two. There are MANY model railroaders that can't justify that kind of money for that model. This kerfuffle over kids and model railroading comes up constantly on this forum and on all modeling forums, including plastic kits such as cars, tanks, planes, etc.. The fact is well intentioned adults seem to think that dragging junior or missy by the scruff of the neck to shows, the basement to see dad's toys, hobby shop, etc. is going to get the kid to roll over and adopt the hobby. Ain't happening. Let the child come to the hobby and they will stay a lot longer. Either they are interested or they are not. Live with it. Some adults approach getting a child interested in a hobby, like the Soviets and Chinese used to "reeducate" those that opposed the regime. Wow pretty extreme view. You remind me of the grumpy old guy telling kids to keep off his lawn. To compare taking kids to a train show to Soviet Gulags is just about the most absurd comparison I have ever heard or read.
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Post by Amboy Secondary on Jul 31, 2014 17:46:13 GMT -8
I don't understand what the controversy about MTH is all about. Either you buy their product, or you do not. I enjoyed the video. It was informative. Seriously, where is the problem. I don't own any MTH locos, only the M&Ms car - Christmas gift from my youngest son - I have two BLI steam locos, first thing I did was find out how to turn off the smoke. Second thing was to try and turn off the sound, but couldn't figure out how to change the default to sound off unless F8 was engaged. So they sit in their boxes. I'm not exactly enamored with BLI either. But that's my choice. Your preferences may vary. I use DCC exclusively. I feel it's a better system than DC Cab control. I don't know anything about DCS.
Does this make me a better or lesser model railroader? I mean, it's like our personal preference of cars or pickup trucks. I like mine, you like yours. My oldest son is an active model railroader. My youngest isn't in to it at all. They both have equal exposure to the hobby, so again it's a personal preference.
My thoughts, your experience may differ.
Joe
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Jul 31, 2014 18:16:40 GMT -8
MTH is my favorite manufacturer behind Overland Models (Though they are almost done)
I take operations, durability, detail and weight all into consideration when choosing my favorite manufacturers. Most importantly they have to offer models of my era and roadname first.
Best to least best for me. #1. Overland OMI SD70M & SD70ACe #2. MTH SD70ACe and soon, ES44AC and Dash 9-44CW #3. Kato SD90MAc, AC4400CW, SD45 #4. BLI AC6000CW and one day, the ES44AC #5. Athearn Genesis SD70M, Flared SD70M, GP38-2, AC4400CW (W/Genesis drive added), Lastly the new ES44AC #6. Atlas GP38-2, Genset, Dash 8-40CW #7 Intermountain ES44AC, new SD40-2(HOT!)
MONSTERRAILROAD HAS MAD LOVE FOR MTH!!
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 31, 2014 19:38:03 GMT -8
Tommy-Trudi-Naomi-
Of course you have a point: However, there is always a train on the (simple track plan) layout ready to go. The boys can run it any time they want. Half the time it has their own (not mine) engines on it--ready to go--but the fact is they don't run it anymore when I'm not around, and only seldom ask me to run it for them (their interest is waning).
Look, you don't understand the kids in my neighborhood. They can't keep their hands off anything (parents don't teach them any respect for others' property) and are very destructive. The train layout is in the basement, and my wife can't watch all the kids very well all the time and get anything done. It's simply preservation--if I left a cool steamer within reach, they'd touch it and trash it. As it is the neighbor kids routinely damage stuff on the train layout. For Pete's sake, the little 7 year old neighbor girls thought it would be cool to reach into the baseball bucket and throw our baseballs down the street, into the creek, where they were gone. I simply can't afford to throw money away and then have to replace baseballs. They also already basically trashed the R/C SCX race cars (the train store said would be better for little kids as they have more variable speed control), which are $40 to $50 each. I write off a lot to "just kids playing".
It's not my kids I have to be concerned about. They know how to take care of (at least) the trains and never broke an HO engine.
The neighbor kids are so rude, when we've told them our (youngest) son is not home for whatever legitimate reason, they actually are so bold as to ask if they can come inside and play with his toys! (No I don't think so).
Also--regarding train clubs, the only significant local model railroad club has a strict "no kids under 12" policy that is helping to kill the club (I certainly won't join when their attitude is like that).
As for me, I don't even need sound anymore in my engines--but I respect that some do, and might like the MTH products, and as James said, MTH is trying hard to listen to the customers and make changes. Whether they sue somebody or not, I don't really care, as long as they make some decent trains and stand behind them. MTH is also not the only litigious company out there and I'll just stop my comments there. Thank you all.
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Post by carrman on Jul 31, 2014 23:25:07 GMT -8
Once upon a time I reviewed the MTH Little Joe for MRN. Thought it was a decent locomotive, but it just wasn't happy running on DCC. It would respond sluggishly to throttle commands or not at all. I couldn't change the address of the engine; I had to go to my editors house and have him do it with his DCS system. The final straw for me was the canned station announcements stating that the Olympian Hiawatha was now arriving in Chicago. That Joe must have had a hell of a long extension cord to get it there from Montana. I gave it a decent review, but once it was published, even though I love the Milwaukee, I sold it to someone in Germany who planned on gutting the DCS out of it and making it more of a prototype model. Thus endeth my experience with MTH products, and I'll not revisit them again. Dave If one applied the same standard to cars, computers, phones, etc, etc, you would not be posting here or driving to work............... Yeah well, I gave them one bite at the apple, they don't get a second chance from me. Dave
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Post by carrman on Jul 31, 2014 23:33:39 GMT -8
And as far as getting kids into the hobby, let's just say if they have no real interest in trains to begin with, you are just wasting your time. And as far as clubs go, many of us have a dim view of admitting young kids into the club given the behaviors we've seen exhibited in the past.
Dave
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Post by riogrande on Aug 1, 2014 3:31:21 GMT -8
This kerfuffle over kids and model railroading comes up constantly on this forum and on all modeling forums, including plastic kits such as cars, tanks, planes, etc.. The fact is well intentioned adults seem to think that dragging junior or missy by the scruff of the neck to shows, the basement to see dad's toys, hobby shop, etc. is going to get the kid to roll over and adopt the hobby. Ain't happening. Let the child come to the hobby and they will stay a lot longer. Either they are interested or they are not. Live with it. Some adults approach getting a child interested in a hobby, like the Soviets and Chinese used to "reeducate" those that opposed the regime. Jim, you aren't going to change people who feel in some way they want to promote the hobby to the next generation. If you are feeling uncharitable or grumpy toward them, just leave them be. Just remember, some adults take the same approach with their children with sports too, even more so. Good grief I've seen some parent nearly bust blood vessels over how little league games go. There isn't much we can do about fanatics in any genre, just steer clear of them if they bother you, or skip over their posts. It's better for your blood pressure! Remember, Model Railroading is Fun! Jim
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2014 6:46:32 GMT -8
Tommy-Trudi-Naomi- Of course you have a point: However, there is always a train on the (simple track plan) layout ready to go. The boys can run it any time they want. Half the time it has their own (not mine) engines on it--ready to go--but the fact is they don't run it anymore when I'm not around, and only seldom ask me to run it for them (their interest is waning). Look, you don't understand the kids in my neighborhood. They can't keep their hands off anything (parents don't teach them any respect for others' property) and are very destructive. The train layout is in the basement, and my wife can't watch all the kids very well all the time and get anything done. It's simply preservation--if I left a cool steamer within reach, they'd touch it and trash it. As it is the neighbor kids routinely damage stuff on the train layout. For Pete's sake, the little 7 year old neighbor girls thought it would be cool to reach into the baseball bucket and throw our baseballs down the street, into the creek, where they were gone. I simply can't afford to throw money away and then have to replace baseballs. They also already basically trashed the R/C SCX race cars (the train store said would be better for little kids as they have more variable speed control), which are $40 to $50 each. I write off a lot to "just kids playing". It's not my kids I have to be concerned about. They know how to take care of (at least) the trains and never broke an HO engine. The neighbor kids are so rude, when we've told them our (youngest) son is not home for whatever legitimate reason, they actually are so bold as to ask if they can come inside and play with his toys! (No I don't think so). Also--regarding train clubs, the only significant local model railroad club has a strict "no kids under 12" policy that is helping to kill the club (I certainly won't join when their attitude is like that). As for me, I don't even need sound anymore in my engines--but I respect that some do, and might like the MTH products, and as James said, MTH is trying hard to listen to the customers and make changes. Whether they sue somebody or not, I don't really care, as long as they make some decent trains and stand behind them. MTH is also not the only litigious company out there and I'll just stop my comments there. Thank you all. I understand the need to keep things protected. I agree that many kids today have not been taught to respect others possessions. But, the cost of the hobby items is also an issue too on why you must protect. Its a vicious circle in which you want the youngsters to enjoy, but when an adult is present, its not always as enjoyable for kids.
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