|
Post by tankcarsrule on Jan 22, 2015 12:53:19 GMT -8
I'm glad I like to roll my own.
Regards, Bobby
|
|
|
Post by markfj on Jan 22, 2015 13:29:47 GMT -8
This is something that I would risk waiting to find in the secondary market (e.g. swap meet or eBay, although that’s fast becoming a primary market). But at the risk of starting “thread drift”, I think we took prices to this level with our demands for more detail fidelity and accuracy. Back to the question at hand; no, I don’t see this price point becoming the norm. $40-50 yes, $100 no. Thanks, Mark
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Jan 22, 2015 13:58:56 GMT -8
This is something that I would risk waiting to find in the secondary market (e.g. swap meet or eBay, although that’s fast becoming a primary market). But at the risk of starting “thread drift”, I think we took prices to this level with our demands for more detail fidelity and accuracy. Back to the question at hand; no, I don’t see this price point becoming the norm. $40-50 yes, $100 no. Thanks, Mark
Blaming the customer for high prices is bad business. I don't ever recall anyone demanding $100 details no matter the cost. And did we demand they raise the price for the same car by $30 ?
|
|
toml
New Member
Posts: 41
|
Post by toml on Jan 22, 2015 14:26:55 GMT -8
Hey Guys, Would I pay $100.00 for a RTR high end freight car? Sure I would, if, the car was what I wanted and I had to have that level of detail or, MAINLY,if the car was not available from another manufacturer. The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I wouldn't purchase this auto rack for $100.00 but there may be a freight car coming out in the future that catches my eye and I really want and if it were that higher end price , I would rub my chin, balk a bit but probably get it.Granted, I would not try to fill the freight yard with them but to have one or two highly detailed cars at least for photographing in a scene or watch it go by, I would do it. Scratchbuilding is alot of fun and I have used this path to get a car or structure the way I want it, but, even though it is all about fun , there are time constraints with most of us and the way it usually works, you have projects on the table and then this anouncement of a fantastic car or whatever it is catches you in the rail mag. you then get to see it in person and...well sometimes ,cha ching. By far and far , I would first tend to work with a car from another maker at the lower price if that was an option and detail it up. Also, like mentioned before, this is not the price trend for all freight cars by all manfacturers. GOOD THING at that!
|
|
|
Post by riogrande on Jan 22, 2015 14:38:20 GMT -8
Hey Guys, Would I pay $100.00 for a RTR high end freight car? Sure I would, if, the car was what I wanted and I had to have that level of detail or, MAINLY,if the car was not available from another manufacturer. The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I wouldn't purchase this auto rack for $100.00 but there may be a freight car coming out in the future that catches my eye and I really want and if it were that higher end price , I would rub my chin, balk a bit but probably get it.Granted, I would not try to fill the freight yard with them but to have one or two highly detailed cars at least for photographing in a scene or watch it go by, I would do it. Also, like mentioned before, this is not the price trend for all freight cars by all manfacturers. GOOD THING at that! This ^ 1000+
|
|
|
Post by enginseer on Jan 22, 2015 16:29:19 GMT -8
Hey Guys, Would I pay $100.00 for a RTR high end freight car? Sure I would, if, the car was what I wanted and I had to have that level of detail or, MAINLY,if the car was not available from another manufacturer. The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I wouldn't purchase this auto rack for $100.00 but there may be a freight car coming out in the future that catches my eye and I really want and if it were that higher end price , I would rub my chin, balk a bit but probably get it.Granted, I would not try to fill the freight yard with them but to have one or two highly detailed cars at least for photographing in a scene or watch it go by, I would do it. Scratchbuilding is alot of fun and I have used this path to get a car or structure the way I want it, but, even though it is all about fun , there are time constraints with most of us and the way it usually works, you have projects on the table and then this anouncement of a fantastic car or whatever it is catches you in the rail mag. you then get to see it in person and...well sometimes ,cha ching. By far and far , I would first tend to work with a car from another maker at the lower price if that was an option and detail it up. Also, like mentioned before, this is not the price trend for all freight cars by all manfacturers. GOOD THING at that! This is a really good point, I think. Credit where credits due. It is definitely true that we will buy what we want and what our wallets will bear. What irks me though, is that when you think about the detailed "slide-molded" plastic and multi-media kits we find in Armor modeling, you can expect to pay 50-60 bucks unbuilt. Add a few after market details and you can get near $100 for a 1/35th scale vehicle and that's having to build it yourself. But what are we paying for with 100 dollar RTR HO freight cars? Do these kits even come close to what is offered in other modeling hobbies? Not even close imho. Unfortunately, this is what we have to look forward to as our hobby slowly slides into obscurity.
|
|
|
Post by calzephyr on Jan 22, 2015 16:32:26 GMT -8
On January 16th I noticed Intermountain Railway had announced another run of their Auto racks with etched metal sides. Of interesting items to note, I found the MSRP to be $96.95. Here is the link: www.intermountain-railway.com/news0115flyers.htmlTo my knowledge, the only other piece of rolling stock in plastic to approach or exceed the $100 price point is the Bachmann Schnabel car which is massive and composed of three parts. Do you think this will slowly become the norm with rolling stock? Do you think the price has gone too far? Do you think it's warranted because of the etched metal sides? Just curious what everyone thinks! Thanks, James James It will continue to be more expensive as more details and new items are offered to us. The latest Walthers Hi Level passenger cars with lighting are priced close to that. Freight or passenger service rolling stock in HO now costs more money than my first brass locomotives. That is amazing to compare those models to what we have available. I still have many boxes of Blue Line freight cars that I will never use, but they do look good on club layouts and cost pennies compared to the latest models. Larry
|
|
|
Post by stevef45 on Jan 22, 2015 18:37:10 GMT -8
On January 16th I noticed Intermountain Railway had announced another run of their Auto racks with etched metal sides. Of interesting items to note, I found the MSRP to be $96.95. Here is the link: www.intermountain-railway.com/news0115flyers.htmlTo my knowledge, the only other piece of rolling stock in plastic to approach or exceed the $100 price point is the Bachmann Schnabel car which is massive and composed of three parts. Do you think this will slowly become the norm with rolling stock? Do you think the price has gone too far? Do you think it's warranted because of the etched metal sides? Just curious what everyone thinks! Thanks, James What you don't see is the dealer discount is still the same for Intermountain. Many other manufacturers have lowered the discount by at least 10% or more. So what does this mean for you, the modeler ? It means the dealers have a bigger margin to use when pricing the cars. Also, the MSRP is $96.95 which is the FULL RETAIL PRICE. If you paying the full price, then you have sucker written all over you. I'm sure MB Kline, etc will have these priced out at around $77.00 bucks. Also, the size of this car is roughly the same size as a passenger car which is, ironically, about the same price which many of you gladly pay for. $77 for a freight car is still rediculous. Athearns automax articulated autoracks don't even cost that much and they are nearly double in size.
|
|
|
Post by bdhicks on Jan 22, 2015 18:43:17 GMT -8
Athearn's Automax cars are basically just two painted boxes on wheels. There's not a lot of complicated etching, stamping or assembly there.
|
|
|
Post by bigblow69 on Jan 22, 2015 18:55:18 GMT -8
Walthers from Lombard Hobbies works for me.
|
|
|
Post by espeenut on Jan 22, 2015 21:25:47 GMT -8
...this is absolutely nuts! It really makes me very glad that I've probably already got 95% of the rolling stock I really need, and the remaining 5% can be quite discretionary if the price is also just as nuts... ...along with what others have said, the Walthers autoracks are fine for me, I only have a few anyway, they make an occasional appearance on the club layout in a mixed freight. The absence of small details that often fall off when handled actually allows them to be used on a publicly displayed layout like ours...
|
|
|
Post by lvrr325 on Jan 22, 2015 23:56:24 GMT -8
It won't sell, is all. Oh, the guys who have money to burn will buy it, but if they produce too many eventually some will turn up stupid cheap somewhere.
|
|
|
Post by drolsen on Jan 23, 2015 4:21:51 GMT -8
There's clearly a demand for these models, and the people buying them seem to have more money than desire to modify Walthers cars with Plano sides (which can be done far cheaper than the RTR Intermountain cars, assuming you get the Walthers racks at a discount or second hand). Even if Intermountain executed these cars flawlessly, I'm still not interested in them since I have all I need of the Walthers cars. I may or may not upgrade them with Plano sides at some point in the future. Ryan - Keep in mind that the Plano panels are made for the original Walthers bi-level kits and the later RTR tri-level model. They don't fit the more recent, new Walthers bi-level (which is much better detailed than the original kit). Walthers corrected the trapezoidal gussets at the bottom of the four middle side posts, which are smaller than the two outboard pairs. Since the Plano panels were made to fit the original Walthers kit, with eight equal sized gussets, they won't quite work. It's a bummer, because the newer Walthers bi-level is much nicer, but I also understand why Keith is not in a rush to make another version of his side panels, since not many people are willing to do that amount of work. I have several of the tri-levels and Plano panels to go with them, but I have to say that I'm really not looking forward to the work involved in upgrading them. I want to have a couple of those tri-levels with see-through panels, because they offer an interesting visual contrast with the sidesill cutouts over the wheels. It just seems like I would need to design a jig to cut out the sides on the Walthers model with a mill in order to reduce the amount of work required to a few hours per car. When faced with the amount of work required to use the Plano panels with the Walthers models, I have to say that I love the Intermountain model. Autoracks have always been one of my favorite freight cars, so having seen what a model with real see-through etched panels can look like, I just can't go back to solid plastic sides again. In my mind, it would be like going from a Kadee PS-1 box car back to an old Athearn model with solid running boards on the roof. The Intermountain model does have some issues, like the bowed side panels and end doors that don't really operate as intended (the paint on the operating parts is too thick to let them slide properly). As Harry Wong posted on Trainorders, you can gently remove the side panels and bend them back to flatten them out again (not sure how Plano was able to avoid this issue but Intermountain wasn't). However, these issues pale in comparison to the thought of having to do all that work to put Plano panels on a Walthers model. One thing I was very happy to see is that Intermountain has corrected the issue from the first run of the logo panels that didn't match the prototype style. The factory originally just used flat panels for all roadnames, like this CSX example that should have a solid, corrugated panel under the logo: www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/html/45255.htmThe P&W and Ferromex schemes from the second run have the logos on solid, corrugated panels: www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/html/45269.htmwww.intermountain-railway.com/ho/html/45270.htmAnd the Southern and Chessie versions have the logos on perforated, corrugated panels: www.intermountain-railway.com/ho/html/45271.htmwww.intermountain-railway.com/ho/html/45272.htmHaving said all that, I'm pretty shocked at the price increase. I have 6 cars from the original run, 5 of which I bought from M.B. Klein for $51.79 each, and then later bought the last one for $41.49 when they went on sale. Based on the new MSRP, they will likely go for $72.99 each, which is a pretty big jump. I'm really not happy about the idea of paying that price, but again, I know what it will cost me in time and effort to upgrade the Walthers model, and it still won't turn out as nice as the Intermountain without a lot of extra scratchbuilding. What it will probably come down to for me is that I will spend the same amount of money as I would have at the lower price, but I'll only get 2 or 3 from this run instead of 4 or 5. Or I'll just save up until they run the CSX version again (with the original black logo and correct corrugated logo panel). I hate to agree with others too, but I'm pretty sure a number of these are going to end up being sold at a deeper discount because the high price is going to slow sales. I noticed that although Intermountain still lists the second run as available, M.B. Klein is sold out of them, which probably means they can't sell many of them at the higher price and don't want to order more to restock. I've built a few IMRC auto-racks (none with the anti-vandal screens) and they are a piece of cake compared to a coach. The photo-etching has to add something to the cost, but I think you're getting a lot more skill and difficulty in the build from the Blackstone coach than from the IMRC auto-rack. Mike - I think you may be getting mixed up with Accurail's autoracks. Intermountain doesn't offer a kit version of their autorack. Dave
|
|
|
Post by riogrande on Jan 23, 2015 5:25:18 GMT -8
Dave, I could be wrong, but it may actually be possible to get a kit version of the IMRC auto-rack. I haven't seen a kit version of the IMRC/Red Caboose SP C-40-4 Bay Window caboose but Harry has told me he is able to order those from IMRC and plans to paint his own. IMRC just may not advertise some kit models apparently. I'd contact IMRC directly to find out. Probably you are right about the comment by Mike, but mainly because I'm 99.9999% sure the IMRC racks are waaaay to new for Mike! I did consider buying one or two of the IMRC racks myself at the $52 price, but was nervous to buy them and have all those warped panels to deal with - right now I prefer not to buy models that require a good deal of work to get layout ready - especially higher cost RTR models like this. I can see the attraction of the see-through panels for sure, so eventually I'd like to have some rack like that, although I do feel the Walthers models are very decent. I suppose once I do get a see through panel rack, it may have a cascade effect on the fleet.
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Jan 23, 2015 6:34:01 GMT -8
The IM cars look nice yes I saw them on discount but they had warped panels and I passed since starting a train of these will end up costing $$$$$$ Had the panel not been messed up I would have gotten a few though. Now that the price is $$$$$$ I am glad I passed on them.
|
|
|
Post by markfj on Jan 23, 2015 7:19:12 GMT -8
This is something that I would risk waiting to find in the secondary market (e.g. swap meet or eBay, although that’s fast becoming a primary market). But at the risk of starting “thread drift”, I think we took prices to this level with our demands for more detail fidelity and accuracy. Back to the question at hand; no, I don’t see this price point becoming the norm. $40-50 yes, $100 no. Thanks, Mark
Blaming the customer for high prices is bad business. I don't ever recall anyone demanding $100 details no matter the cost. And did we demand they raise the price for the same car by $30 ? Ok, no we didn’t. But my thinking is that manufacturers need to increase costs (R&D, tooling, etc.) to bring their models up to market expectations. I can’t explain why one car gets a big increase and another doesn’t, but I’m fairly confident that costs are the main driver here. Margins are probably very thin on any products in this industry given its size and limited market so it’s doubtful that IMRC see their autoracks as cash cows. Thanks, Mark
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Jan 23, 2015 8:36:57 GMT -8
Dave, I could be wrong, but it may actually be possible to get a kit version of the IMRC auto-rack. I haven't seen a kit version of the IMRC/Red Caboose SP C-40-4 Bay Window caboose but Harry has told me he is able to order those from IMRC and plans to paint his own. IMRC just may not advertise some kit models apparently. I'd contact IMRC directly to find out. Probably you are right about the comment by Mike, but mainly because I'm 99.9999% sure the IMRC racks are waaaay to new for Mike! SNIP Jim's right, the paneled autoracks are too new. I just garbled two thoughts together in writing too fast, was going to go back and disambiguate them, then decided it wasn't worth the trouble. Yeah, it was the Accurails I built. The bigger point still being that unless the customer sees the value in terms of their own time and effort being avoided, it's pretty hard to sell a $100 car. Just one more example, taken from the narrowgauge rails... I mentioned my new Blackstone Rio Grande drop-bottom gons in the fave 2014 rolling stock thread. I had several of the R/Robb DB gon kits that never made it to the workbench and were subsequently rEbaycycled. Beautiful kits with an impressive and intimidating number of parts. Last they were available IIRC the kit itself ran over $30, then you had to add trucks, couplers, paint, decals, etc. Blackstone sells the RTR version for $59.95 MSRP. Factor in the street discount and there is no way your time is worth the small difference in cost between the kit and the RTR versions. Blackstone sells out quickly and for good reason. It's an exquisite model. I have 4 Division Point D-B gons I bought before Blackstone brought their to market. Nice models, DP is no slouch, but 3x as expensive and still not as nice as the Blackstone. So Blackstone has got both the low end and high end of the D-B gon market beat. It's difficult to come up with any scenario where the other options are prefereable to Blackstone's RTR option.
|
|
|
Post by Spikre on Jan 23, 2015 9:24:21 GMT -8
so a $96.95 Auto Rack is too much ?? cant imagine why ? maybe for the crowd that expects a Genesis SD40-2 to be in the $115.00 dollar range,but there arnt too many of them here,are there ?? guess Lay-A-Way is beneath most here,rite Big Al ?? Spikre
|
|
|
Post by riogrande on Jan 23, 2015 10:39:41 GMT -8
Bob, who is drinking the $115 Genesis SD40-2 coolaid? Names please! Even the last run of Genesis GP40-2's were $129.95 and that tooling is a couple years old now.
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Jan 23, 2015 12:37:36 GMT -8
so a $96.95 Auto Rack is too much ?? cant imagine why ? maybe for the crowd that expects a Genesis SD40-2 to be in the $115.00 dollar range,but there arnt too many of them here,are there ?? guess Lay-A-Way is beneath most here,rite Big Al ?? Spikre I for one would expect a Genesis SD40-2 to cost the same as their GEVO or SDP45. $115 is blue box territory
|
|
|
Post by scl1234 on Jan 23, 2015 12:49:03 GMT -8
Closest I'll come to spending a C-note on one car is when the Rapido Budd "Mid Dome" Cars are released. Would probably skip it if Walther's asked that much, but given the detail you see on a Rapido, it's worth a little extra for one car.
|
|
|
Post by fr8kar on Jan 23, 2015 16:47:37 GMT -8
Ryan - Keep in mind that the Plano panels are made for the original Walthers bi-level kits and the later RTR tri-level model. They don't fit the more recent, new Walthers bi-level (which is much better detailed than the original kit). Walthers corrected the trapezoidal gussets at the bottom of the four middle side posts, which are smaller than the two outboard pairs. Since the Plano panels were made to fit the original Walthers kit, with eight equal sized gussets, they won't quite work. It's a bummer, because the newer Walthers bi-level is much nicer, but I also understand why Keith is not in a rush to make another version of his side panels, since not many people are willing to do that amount of work. That's really good to know, so thanks for the info! I only have six or seven of them, and I'm pretty sure all the bilevels I have are the early release kits. I think I have two or three of the trilevels, but I can't remember. For my modeling era and area of interest, they weren't common except in short cuts interspersed in manifest freights. If I pick up any additional autoracks, I'll be sure to get the early bilevels.
|
|
|
Post by fr8kar on Jan 23, 2015 16:50:40 GMT -8
Bob, who is drinking the $115 Genesis SD40-2 coolaid? Names please! Even the last run of Genesis GP40-2's were $129.95 and that tooling is a couple years old now. I think that was a dig at the "Genesis level" SD40-2 poll, Jim. It was vintage Bob Roselli humor.
|
|
|
Post by calzephyr on Jan 23, 2015 16:54:36 GMT -8
We should visit this topic in 2030 if we are still around and check on how low the prices were back in 2015!!!!
Granted, the 1.98 blue Box models were no match for anything that is available today, but I got most of mine from TrainWorld and some other eastern whole sale shops and they were sold for .98 each. We purchased them by the dozens and installed Kadees and metal wheels. Some weathering and a little touch up made for a train that did not cost an arm and leg.
Larry
|
|
|
Post by bigb6flyer on Jan 23, 2015 20:10:05 GMT -8
I didn't buy the first runs of the IM car (or any single car) that cost $50, so it's safe to say I won't be purchasing this run even if I was to find it 50% off msrp. Crazy...
Brad
|
|
|
Post by wmcbride on Jan 23, 2015 22:15:16 GMT -8
MB Klein's has these in stock for $67.49.
Bill McBride
|
|
|
Post by WP 257 on Jan 24, 2015 0:24:53 GMT -8
If the particular car I wanted or needed was available for $100, I would spend that...maybe just buy less of them.
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Jan 24, 2015 1:29:10 GMT -8
If the particular car I wanted or needed was available for $100, I would spend that...maybe just buy less of them. Or just always run them empty. That saves a chunk of change.
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Jan 24, 2015 7:10:33 GMT -8
MB Klein's has these in stock for $67.49. Bill McBride That is the first run. This $97 run is not out yet.
|
|
|
Post by bnsftcdiv on Jan 24, 2015 7:30:45 GMT -8
I believe these are 2nd run (Ferromexs and PW's) and msrp @ $89.00. They seem to be selling....especially the road names that Walthers hasn't done.
|
|