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Post by curtmc on Jan 24, 2015 7:55:41 GMT -8
MB Klein's has these in stock for $67.49. Bill McBride Bill, That's the last run... which had MSRP of $89.95. The $96.95 MSRP is next run. The first runs of the cars (2013) had $68.95 MSRP (MBK price $51.79). By the way, it was interesting to see this last run when first listed at MBK... how many of each scheme in initial order. UP Building America - 24 each UP WWD - 12 each PW amd FXE - 4 each # Southern, Chessie, SOO and GT - 6 each # Nice looking cars, but I question the color separation points (at bottom of rack) on some of the yellow cars they've done...
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Post by riogrande on Jan 24, 2015 9:16:03 GMT -8
Yes, I had made the connection, but still, $115 either way is taking the mickey, to use a British term - that really fits BTW. From the urban dictionary: To "take the Mickey (out of someone)" means to take the fight, the vigor, the gravity, the self-importance out of them, by mocking them, usually in a very subtle way. I some of the British expression! www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Take+the+Mickey+out+ofWe should visit this topic in 2030 if we are still around and check on how low the prices were back in 2015!!!! Granted, the 1.98 blue Box models were no match for anything that is available today... Larry It just goes to show you that you can really contrast prices over long periods of time and the difference is extreme. MY parents, in the 80's now, used to go to movies for a nickel when they were children, now they are 10-14 dollars.
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Post by wmcbride on Jan 24, 2015 9:42:58 GMT -8
MB Klein's has these in stock for $67.49. Bill McBride Bill, That's the last run... which had MSRP of $89.95. The $96.95 MSRP is next run. The first runs of the cars (2013) had $68.95 MSRP (MBK price $51.79). By the way, it was interesting to see this last run when first listed at MBK... how many of each scheme in initial order. UP Building America - 24 each UP WWD - 12 each PW amd FXE - 4 each # Southern, Chessie, SOO and GT - 6 each # Nice looking cars, but I question the color separation points (at bottom of rack) on some of the yellow cars they've done... Yep, I was quite wrong. I thought these were long sold out and then they appeared in the "new" section. Bill McBride
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Post by jlwii2000 on Jan 24, 2015 10:01:00 GMT -8
Bill, That's the last run... which had MSRP of $89.95. The $96.95 MSRP is next run. The first runs of the cars (2013) had $68.95 MSRP (MBK price $51.79). By the way, it was interesting to see this last run when first listed at MBK... how many of each scheme in initial order. UP Building America - 24 each UP WWD - 12 each PW amd FXE - 4 each # Southern, Chessie, SOO and GT - 6 each # Nice looking cars, but I question the color separation points (at bottom of rack) on some of the yellow cars they've done... Yep, I was quite wrong. I thought these were long sold out and then they appeared in the "new" section. Bill McBride Actually the latest run (MSRP 89.95) just shipped from Intermountain to dealers a week or two ago. The next run is the slight price bump.
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Post by curtmc on Jan 24, 2015 10:07:26 GMT -8
Actually every run has been a price bump... $69... $79... $89... $97
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Post by atsfan on Jan 24, 2015 10:18:05 GMT -8
Actually every run has been a price bump... $69... $79... $89... $97 40.6% price increaase. Crazy.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 24, 2015 10:48:45 GMT -8
It definitely can make the older runs of many items more attractive to hunt down. When I was offered a couple sets last year of Athearn RTR Ortner 5-bay rapid discharge hoppers for $72 each pack, I jumped on it because the newer ones were going for considerably more. Same with the Athearn Fruehauf 2-packs. Most of them I bought for ~$15, but 2-packs have still hung around at MSRP in some shops because they are full price, they start looking more attractive when singles are announced at $26.
So all these new sharply higher products IMO may somewhat be driving up the "value" of some of the older runs which are basically the same. e.g. IMRC autoracks, Athearn Fruehauf and blue box based trailers are jumping sharply. I've been willing to pay around MSRP in a few cases that I know something is basically never going to be made again or newer runs make the old MSRP attractive in comparison.
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Post by dtinut on Jan 24, 2015 11:18:22 GMT -8
I'm glad I like to roll my own. Regards, Bobby Bobby, Your models are really great, but do you operate the models you build? I recall you saying that you just enjoy building them and not so much running them. Everything to me must be operable, because i will run it in a train, either at club, or at friends, or my own layout. Not trying to single you out cause lots of folks get their kicks just building models (me included) but one of the goals is to also be able to run it.
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Post by tankcarsrule on Jan 24, 2015 11:29:25 GMT -8
I've run a few of them, but with P:87 wheels I'd have to run on P:87 track or change the wheels. I guess I'm more of a model builder than a model operator.
Regards, Bobby
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Post by Spikre on Jan 25, 2015 13:31:47 GMT -8
James, may have quoted the wrong prices,think the $110.00 to $150.00 range of one of the SD40-2 Polls should be the price range. but still sort of doubt that those that want a Genesis SD40-2 for $150.00 or less will be buying too many,or any $97.00 list range freight cars of any types,Passenge cars maybe,but not a whole Coach Yard full. now recall the days when BB kits started at $1.29 and BB RTR went for $1.49. Varney were even more affordable,can recall Shrink Wrapped RTR cars for .88 cents,and regular kits starting at .99 cents,these may be discounted prices,not List Prices ? late 50s early 60s are becoming a Blur here lately. Spikre
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Post by llxlocomotives on Jan 25, 2015 15:32:08 GMT -8
There is a catch 22 going on here. The cost to build should be going down. It may not be because the labor cost are going up at the source. But the cost of a new run of an existing design is likely not rising. The reality of limited run production is if it sells slowly, it is never be made again. If it sells fast, then you clearly sold it too cheaply. So, the next run will have a higher MSRP. It is supply and demand and not inflation driving this increase. This cycle will continue until the sales slow. Then they likely won't be made again. Definitely a catch 22. There us always a price where there is no demand. For me $100 per car (any car) is well beyond that point. Larry www.llxlocomotives.com
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Post by atsfan on Jan 25, 2015 18:56:13 GMT -8
James, may have quoted the wrong prices,think the $110.00 to $150.00 range of one of the SD40-2 Polls should be the price range. but still sort of doubt that those that want a Genesis SD40-2 for $150.00 or less will be buying too many,or any $97.00 list range freight cars of any types,Passenge cars maybe,but not a whole Coach Yard full. now recall the days when BB kits started at $1.29 and BB RTR went for $1.49. Varney were even more affordable,can recall Shrink Wrapped RTR cars for .88 cents,and regular kits starting at .99 cents,these may be discounted prices,not List Prices ? late 50s early 60s are becoming a Blur here lately. Spikre OK, for the third time, where are you getting people want a Genesis SD40-2 for $150 Do you just make that up? Also, what were you willing to pay for your Erie Triplex??
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jan 25, 2015 19:28:44 GMT -8
There is a catch 22 going on here. The cost to build should be going down. It may not be because the labor cost are going up at the source. But the cost of a new run of an existing design is likely not rising. The reality of limited run production is if it sells slowly, it is never be made again. If it sells fast, then you clearly sold it too cheaply. So, the next run will have a higher MSRP. It is supply and demand and not inflation driving this increase. This cycle will continue until the sales slow. Then they likely won't be made again. Definitely a catch 22. There us always a price where there is no demand. For me $100 per car (any car) is well beyond that point. Larry www.llxlocomotives.comI think we're also seeing too many years of QE taking a toll. I have enough rolling stock that I can be a little more choosy, although top-flight stuff like Tangent is tough to resist. $80 for lit passenger cars is about my limit. $50 for freight, maybe 60 for the IM autoracks. Has to be something really interesting though.
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Post by mlehman on Jan 26, 2015 1:11:12 GMT -8
There is a catch 22 going on here. The cost to build should be going down. It may not be because the labor cost are going up at the source. But the cost of a new run of an existing design is likely not rising. SNIP I think you're thinking about manufacturing as it's historically been. Find an item to make at lowest cost, then make as many as possible for as long as possible while retaining some profit. Just in time, limited run production -- which is what produces most of our stuff -- is a very different set of circumstances in a very different world. Just when workers are finally learning how to do one run, they move on to the next item. Yes, labor cost in China is catching up to world standards, but there's lots of other price pressure, up and down.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 26, 2015 5:52:12 GMT -8
So Mike, rather than the apparent apocalyptic prices some are warning of, which cannot be good for the hobby or industry, why aren't manufacturers moving to a new labor market like they have down several times in the past (Japan --> Korea --> China --> ? ? ? ) I realize this may be a diffcult move, but isn't also self preservation? Here we have the economy improving while wages so far have stagnated. Hobbyist that have, on the average, the same amount of money to spend can afford fewer and fewer items at the sharply higher prices. Manufacturers sell less and make less. The obvious answer to their self preservation is to seek out lower cost labor markets in other countries, so it seems. We must be on the cusp of that now.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jan 26, 2015 10:17:13 GMT -8
So Mike, rather than the apparent apocalyptic prices some are warning of, which cannot be good for the hobby or industry, why aren't manufacturers moving to a new labor market like they have down several times in the past (Japan --> Korea --> China --> ? ? ? ) I realize this may be a diffcult move, but isn't also self preservation? Here we have the economy improving while wages so far have stagnated. Hobbyist that have, on the average, the same amount of money to spend can afford fewer and fewer items at the sharply higher prices. Manufacturers sell less and make less. The obvious answer to their self preservation is to seek out lower cost labor markets in other countries, so it seems. We must be on the cusp of that now. I am seeing the Philippines emerge as the newest 'cheap' source, with spotty quality as was common elsewhere. Vietnam and Thailand are also developing. Beyond that, Indonesia and India remain.
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Post by mlehman on Jan 26, 2015 13:48:58 GMT -8
So Mike, rather than the apparent apocalyptic prices some are warning of, which cannot be good for the hobby or industry, why aren't manufacturers moving to a new labor market like they have down several times in the past (Japan --> Korea --> China --> ? ? ? ) I realize this may be a diffcult move, but isn't also self preservation? Here we have the economy improving while wages so far have stagnated. Hobbyist that have, on the average, the same amount of money to spend can afford fewer and fewer items at the sharply higher prices. Manufacturers sell less and make less. The obvious answer to their self preservation is to seek out lower cost labor markets in other countries, so it seems. We must be on the cusp of that now. Welcome to the free trade economy. I won't wax political here, as it's not the place, but the investor class has run away from coming to terms with labor for some 200+ years now. There's not much unbroken turf left to plow over. And it's also a mistake to think this is all about the price of labor. It's not. You also have to have mature financial structures, good communications, inland transport and port facilities, an educated workforce on several different levels even if you rely on unskilled labor, a relatively non-corrupt export bureaucracy... Name which country you really thinks qualifies to replace China here? There may be some niches for places like Vietnam, which seems to do OK making scenery, but I don't see brass in their future (or really anyone's future, but that's a somewhat different matter.) I had a pretty good view from the cheap seats of an ill-fated attempt to produce HOn3 locos and rolling stock in India a decade or so back. So far, Blackstone isn't taking the bait. And there's not much of a possibility elsewhere without the sort of hands-on guidance best achieved by running your own factory. Kadee and a few others seem to do OK with that here, which makes you wonder why more folks don't figure that out. I wouldn't worry about the price effects on the hobby here. Someone is buying up all this stuff or they wouldn't keep making it. It may not be you, me or most of the rest of us buying it most of the time, but it still "the rich man's hobby that the worker can afford at least a good taste of." Try fitting that slogan on the masthead at MR. I still prefer Model Railroading Is Fun.
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Post by Spikre on Jan 26, 2015 14:00:44 GMT -8
Mike, You should know there is no place in a workers paradise for model railroading,or any other hobbies. its nose to the grindstone for life. a taste can give that system indigestion. Spikre
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Post by riogrande on Jan 26, 2015 14:37:32 GMT -8
I wouldn't worry about the price effects on the hobby here. Someone is buying up all this stuff or they wouldn't keep making it. It may not be you, me or most of the rest of us buying it most of the time, but it still "the rich man's hobby that the worker can afford at least a good taste of." Try fitting that slogan on the masthead at MR. I still prefer Model Railroading Is Fun. Me too, and yes I remember in the 70's and 80's when the better stuff in stores was out of my budget as a teen and twenty something. Perhaps we had a period in from around 1990-2006 or so when wages and model trains converged somewhat to allow middle-class folk (whatever that means) to be able to buy a lot of toys and now we are moving back to the point where the ordinary schmuck can only afford a taste or so of the nice stuff. Perhaps I am just naive but I thought maybe there were still places where manufacturers could move to to hold the line on those costs or at least reduce the increases over what they could be.
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Post by atsfan on Jan 26, 2015 15:35:24 GMT -8
I wouldn't worry about the price effects on the hobby here. Someone is buying up all this stuff or they wouldn't keep making it. It may not be you, me or most of the rest of us buying it most of the time, but it still "the rich man's hobby that the worker can afford at least a good taste of." Try fitting that slogan on the masthead at MR. I still prefer Model Railroading Is Fun. Me too, and yes I remember in the 70's and 80's when the better stuff in stores was out of my budget as a teen and twenty something. Perhaps we had a period in from around 1990-2006 or so when wages and model trains converged somewhat to allow middle-class folk (whatever that means) to be able to buy a lot of toys and now we are moving back to the point where the ordinary schmuck can only afford a taste or so of the nice stuff. Perhaps I am just naive but I thought maybe there were still places where manufacturers could move to to hold the line on those costs or at least reduce the increases over what they could be. Personally I think the answer is to put some of the modeling back in it. I am fine with installing grab irons if they include them in a bag and drill the holes. That is how it was not that long ago when prices were half what they are now. I am not saying blue box kits. But $50 cars are simply no affordable.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 26, 2015 16:38:10 GMT -8
I am not saying blue box kits. But $50 cars are simply not affordable. For sure it limit's us to just one here and one there. And thats about how it is for me now - just filling in singles mostly now.
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Post by mlehman on Jan 27, 2015 7:59:29 GMT -8
Mike, You should know there is no place in a workers paradise for model railroading,or any other hobbies. its nose to the grindstone for life. a taste can give that system indigestion. Spikre Spikre, I'm not sure that China qualifies as a workers paradise, but there are a bunch of model RRers there. The NMRA has been working with their Chinese counterpart for several years now on issues of mutual interest, like standards. Its membership is around 100,000 IIRC or about 5 times larger than the NMRA. Someone is having fun. Just a taste of what's available... www3.telus.net/ChinaRail/Models.htmlIf nothing else, domestic demand will keep model RR mfgs in business over there. It also speaks to the fact that the Chinese will likely be building their own trains for some time to come, even if some candidate eventually arises to replace them as the go-to location for manufacturing services for export.
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Post by Spikre on Jan 27, 2015 15:11:25 GMT -8
Mike, guess that workers paradise is already corrupted,time to rite them off. money does thourogholy corrupt anything that gets a taste of it. Spikre
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Post by mlehman on Jan 27, 2015 15:16:15 GMT -8
I've sure not got enough money to wallow in to be corrupt. Probably because I do have enough trains to wallow in to be mildly self-serving, if not outright corrupt...
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Post by Chad on Jan 27, 2015 17:16:32 GMT -8
As of now it looks like we have a full range of pricing options. You can get new rolling stock from the mid teens to at retail $100.00. So a little something for everyone. Lower price, less detail, higher price more detail. We get to pick. Seems like a perfect world.
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Post by Chad on Jan 27, 2015 17:28:39 GMT -8
Just for fun I did a little looking online. Went to Model Train Stuff, selected HO scale, Rolling Stock, Freight cars. Then I hit the shop by price drop down. Here is what the results are.
Below $12.00 - 529 items $12 to $15.99 - 615 items $16 to $18.99 - 591 items $19 to 23.99 - 487 items $24 to 28.99 - 636 items $29 and above - 1240 items
Granted some of these will be out of stock but does prove lots to pick from.
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Post by atsfan on Jan 27, 2015 18:24:54 GMT -8
As of now it looks like we have a full range of pricing options. You can get new rolling stock from the mid teens to at retail $100.00. So a little something for everyone. Lower price, less detail, higher price more detail. We get to pick. Seems like a perfect world. It is not perfect as most products have one choice, not many so we get to pick. Huge difference.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jan 28, 2015 4:38:29 GMT -8
As of now it looks like we have a full range of pricing options. You can get new rolling stock from the mid teens to at retail $100.00. So a little something for everyone. Lower price, less detail, higher price more detail. We get to pick. Seems like a perfect world. It is not perfect as most products have one choice, not many so we get to pick. Huge difference. That's nothing new. Look back in the "good ol' days" when an Athearn Blue Box freight car was $3-5 each. Half the stuff we have now in terms of freight car variety didn't exist in model form then, let alone as detailed as it is now. Nobody back then probably thought we'd have specialized oddball cars like the Vert-a-Paks, Chessie Canstock cars, and cars unique to only one or two railroads, or multiple tooling variations of the same car (look at the recent Atlas NSC newsprint boxcars in different cuft versions) to cover differences. Back then, want a 40' boxcar for some obscure shortline or RR? There was only the Athearn, Life-Like, Model Power, etc offerings of a generic car with molded-on parts, sliding doors with oversized door claws and tracks, questionable dimension and detail, one body tooling variation (if you're lucky you get two, like the hi-cube 40' boxes!), and only offered in SP, UP, ATSF, BN and a few other large token roads (whose schemes, numbers and colours often weren't even accurate, or who never even owned that car). You want a 40'6" height car with IDE 4/4 ends and 8" Superior plug door? Good luck. Find the parts and kitbash it yourself (if they exist), or make due with the stand-in. Want separately applied parts, no roofwalks, or lower mounted tack boards? Painstakingly shave all of the cast-on ones off and find someone who sells the correct ladders. Bottom line, we have more selection in this hobby today than ever, better quality offerings, more variety, and a wider price range, but you can't have and eat all the cake. Limited supply and demand market forces mean some items will only be produced by one company, either at a higher price and detail point, or at a lower price and detail point. You won't get everything produced by 4-5 companies at varying price points like F-units are nowadays.
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Post by atsfan on Jan 28, 2015 4:45:31 GMT -8
It is not perfect as most products have one choice, not many so we get to pick. Huge difference. That's nothing new. Look back in the "good ol' days" when an Athearn Blue Box freight car was $3-5 each. Half the stuff we have now in terms of freight car variety didn't exist in model form then, let alone as detailed as it is now. Nobody back then probably thought we'd have specialized oddball cars like the Vert-a-Paks, Chessie Canstock cars, and cars unique to only one or two railroads, or multiple tooling variations of the same car (look at the recent Atlas NSC newsprint boxcars in different cuft versions) to cover differences. Back then, want a 40' boxcar for some obscure shortline or RR? There was only the Athearn, Life-Like, Model Power, etc offerings of a generic car with molded-on parts, sliding doors with oversized door claws and tracks, questionable dimension and detail, one body tooling variation (if you're lucky you get two, like the hi-cube 40' boxes!), and only offered in SP, UP, ATSF, BN and a few other large token roads. You want a 40'6" height car with IDE 4/4 ends and 8" Superior plug door? Good luck. Find the parts and kitbash it yourself (if they exist), or make due with the stand-in. Want separately applied parts, no roofwalks, or lower mounted tack boards? Painstakingly shave all of the cast-on ones off and find someone who sells the correct ladders. Bottom line, we have more selection in this hobby today than ever, better quality offerings, more variety, and a wider price range, but you can't have and eat all the cake. Limited supply and demand market forces mean some items will only be produced by one company, either at a higher price and detail point, or at a lower price and detail point. You won't get everything produced by 4-5 companies at varying price points like F-units are nowadays. Yes all true But it is not a "perfect world". A $100 freight car is a problem.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jan 28, 2015 4:50:04 GMT -8
That's nothing new. Look back in the "good ol' days" when an Athearn Blue Box freight car was $3-5 each. Half the stuff we have now in terms of freight car variety didn't exist in model form then, let alone as detailed as it is now. Nobody back then probably thought we'd have specialized oddball cars like the Vert-a-Paks, Chessie Canstock cars, and cars unique to only one or two railroads, or multiple tooling variations of the same car (look at the recent Atlas NSC newsprint boxcars in different cuft versions) to cover differences. Back then, want a 40' boxcar for some obscure shortline or RR? There was only the Athearn, Life-Like, Model Power, etc offerings of a generic car with molded-on parts, sliding doors with oversized door claws and tracks, questionable dimension and detail, one body tooling variation (if you're lucky you get two, like the hi-cube 40' boxes!), and only offered in SP, UP, ATSF, BN and a few other large token roads. You want a 40'6" height car with IDE 4/4 ends and 8" Superior plug door? Good luck. Find the parts and kitbash it yourself (if they exist), or make due with the stand-in. Want separately applied parts, no roofwalks, or lower mounted tack boards? Painstakingly shave all of the cast-on ones off and find someone who sells the correct ladders. Bottom line, we have more selection in this hobby today than ever, better quality offerings, more variety, and a wider price range, but you can't have and eat all the cake. Limited supply and demand market forces mean some items will only be produced by one company, either at a higher price and detail point, or at a lower price and detail point. You won't get everything produced by 4-5 companies at varying price points like F-units are nowadays. Yes all true But it is not a "perfect world". A $100 freight car is a problem. Why? Don't buy it, buy something else. It's one model offering of many, and nobody's forcing you to buy it. Is a $150,000 Porsche a problem just because it exists at that price point? Maybe if you want one and can't afford it. Save up and buy it, or buy the $12,000 Honda. You won't be able to get a $150,000 Porsche for $12,000 unless it's in mangled-in-crash-salvage-value condition, or a stripped down hulk left over from a chop-shop operation in a police auction that had a body in the back.
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