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Post by jlwii2000 on Jan 21, 2015 19:31:56 GMT -8
On January 16th I noticed Intermountain Railway had announced another run of their Auto racks with etched metal sides. Of interesting items to note, I found the MSRP to be $96.95. Here is the link: www.intermountain-railway.com/news0115flyers.htmlTo my knowledge, the only other piece of rolling stock in plastic to approach or exceed the $100 price point is the Bachmann Schnabel car which is massive and composed of three parts. Do you think this will slowly become the norm with rolling stock? Do you think the price has gone too far? Do you think it's warranted because of the etched metal sides? Just curious what everyone thinks! Thanks, James |
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Post by wmcbride on Jan 21, 2015 19:43:28 GMT -8
I bought two of these from the first run for a whole lot less. They are beautiful cars but not worth the street price (the standard, I think, 20% discount) one can find on Intermountain stuff.
My two will do for me. I'll leave these for the rest of you.
Good hunting!
Bill McBride
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Post by kcjones on Jan 21, 2015 19:52:51 GMT -8
James,
What i'd like to know is if Intermountain corrected all the issues with the first run of autoracks? Like warped side panels? If not...forget it!!! Still, did I fall asleep at one point? How did we go from 3 dollar shake-the-box kits to 100 dollar RTR cars? I'm still trying to catch my breath on paying 40 and 50 dollars a car!!! I just bought 2 "Big Johns" and that still stings. But 100? Ouch!!!!
JL
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Post by dtinut on Jan 21, 2015 19:53:32 GMT -8
Thankful I don't really need these. Of coarse, when Athearn's open auto racks come out, and need to load them with something, it will be well over a hundred dollar car (including the load), even if using basic cars like Fresh Cherries or such which can be had in the 3-5 dollar each, but you need 15-18 depending on the vehicle to fill them for trilevel, or 10-12 for bilevel.
But, this type of model is very nice, and usually doesn't require a bunch of mods to correct error, and has good couplers and wheels, so they are almost R-T-R out of the box. A Tangent car is, and so are some/most of the ER cars. The Athearn cars will still require changing the McJunkies out for real KD's.
You get what you pay for, so I hope the IMRC enclosed auto racks are really nice, and they are probably quite a bit of work to assemble, so I suspect part of the cost is the labor/assembly cost.
These more expensive cars are harder to accept, but when you start looking at them, and the details that are included, and if you consider what time and effort you put into a really nice kit to make a car that is on Tangent quality, I would think it is easier to swallow the price of the R-t-R car being at the higher price point. Some of these companies even offer dicsounts if you buy 6/12/24 packs, so it encourages getting friends or club members to all pitch in a group an order. Saves some $$$
Regards,
Brian
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Jan 21, 2015 19:57:41 GMT -8
Crazy money.
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Post by spookyac47 on Jan 21, 2015 20:03:31 GMT -8
Thankful I don't really need these. Of coarse, when Athearn's open auto racks come out, and need to load them with something, it will be well over a hundred dollar car (including the load), even if using basic cars like Fresh Cherries or such which can be had in the 3-5 dollar each, but you need 15-18 depending on the vehicle to fill them for trilevel, or 10-12 for bilevel. But, this type of model is very nice, and usually doesn't require a bunch of mods to correct error, and has good couplers and wheels, so they are almost R-T-R out of the box. A Tangent car is, and so are some/most of the ER cars. The Athearn cars will still require changing the McJunkies out for real KD's. You get what you pay for, so I hope the IMRC enclosed auto racks are really nice, and they are probably quite a bit of work to assemble, so I suspect part of the cost is the labor/assembly cost. These more expensive cars are harder to accept, but when you start looking at them, and the details that are included, and if you consider what time and effort you put into a really nice kit to make a car that is on Tangent quality, I would think it is easier to swallow the price of the R-t-R car being at the higher price point. Some of these companies even offer dicsounts if you buy 6/12/24 packs, so it encourages getting friends or club members to all pitch in a group an order. Saves some $$$ Regards, Brian They look nice, they are highly detailed and mostly correct to the prototype . . . just don't plan on handling them very much, such as in operations. I have had too many of the RTR detailed cars have items break off just trying to get them out of the box. They just aren't designed any more to be handled frequently. Don Lower Arizona |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 20:29:33 GMT -8
I'll wait for the Bachmann ones. That's insane - it's more than a passenger car from BLI with DCC controlled lighting.
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Post by TBird1958 on Jan 21, 2015 20:33:22 GMT -8
Too new for me - Thank God!
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Post by stevef45 on Jan 21, 2015 20:40:19 GMT -8
this is why i still look on ebay for walthers autorack kits for like $15-25.
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Post by mlehman on Jan 21, 2015 21:49:44 GMT -8
For a little perspective on price and value, in HOn3 Blackstone offers their RTR Rio Grande coach for a $1 higher than the IMRC autorack, $97.95. Usually, you can find them at discount before they get scarce, when people seem to pay list price with few qualms. You get a highly detailed passenger car with a full interior, right down to the water cooler, excellent free-rolling metal-wheeled trucks equipped with wipers if you want to add lights, etc, and Kadee 714 couplers. Extra add-ons included are a pair of bay windows so can be used as a caboose on mixed trains and a set of marker lamps.  Painted, unlettered versions are also available, such as this one I lettered for the Silverton Northern. Lettered versions are detailed for the specific car. Sounds like a lot of money until you try your hand at building a kit coach, then have to add in trucks, couplers, seats, paint, decals, etc. You work for nothing, though, so at least labor's gonna be cheap...  Having built passenger rolling stock from kits, they're kinda fiddly although you can get an idea of difficulty from watching videos and seeing write-ups of kit builds. The value at close to $100 is definitely there because of that. I've built a few IMRC auto-racks (none with the anti-vandal screens) and they are a piece of cake compared to a coach. The photo-etching has to add something to the cost, but I think you're getting a lot more skill and difficulty in the build from the Blackstone coach than from the IMRC auto-rack. |
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Post by Brakie on Jan 22, 2015 3:09:01 GMT -8
I'll wait for the Bachmann ones. That's insane - it's more than a passenger car from BLI with DCC controlled lighting. First I don't need racks but,if I did need 'em the older Walthers racks will work quite well for me. |
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Post by atsfan on Jan 22, 2015 3:44:38 GMT -8
I deliberately did not buy any of these due to the previous high prices.
$100 is ridiculous and so are the massive price increases going in.
Many people just do what I do, spend less and buy less.
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Post by fr8kar on Jan 22, 2015 3:53:26 GMT -8
Either we can accept the price continuing to go up, or we can find a new third-world labor source to exploit... where's that sarcasm smiley?
There's clearly a demand for these models, and the people buying them seem to have more money than desire to modify Walthers cars with Plano sides (which can be done far cheaper than the RTR Intermountain cars, assuming you get the Walthers racks at a discount or second hand). Even if Intermountain executed these cars flawlessly, I'm still not interested in them since I have all I need of the Walthers cars. I may or may not upgrade them with Plano sides at some point in the future.
As far as the larger topic of $100 cars is concerned, well... $100 just doesn't buy today what it used to buy yesterday. My wife and I talked about this awhile back, that when we were kids we had five to ten bucks to take to the skating rink and use for admission, skate rental, a snack, a couple rounds of air hockey and so on. With our kids today it's going to be at least twenty for them to have the same experience. What changed? It's the same skating rink, concession stand and probably the same air hockey table.
I remember seeing brass freight cars in the brass case at Bobbye Hall's Hobby House in Dallas when I was a kid and thought the people that buy those things must be either rich, insane or both. The one car in the case that caught my attention was an autorack and it was close to $100. Considering how much better the Intermountain car is than that brass car, and the fact that it's under $100 all these years later, I don't see the problem. I think the Intermountain cars are a deal at that price, compared to the brass car. But again, I'm content with the Walthers cars.
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Post by bnsf971 on Jan 22, 2015 3:54:19 GMT -8
That's a pretty stiff price. I own exactly one autorack, which I use to check clearances. It is too large a car for my home layout, and way too new for our club layout, so, luckily for me, I won't need to get any.
I'm concerned that the street price of rolling stock will get to that point sooner, rather than later, so I'm accumulating stuff that I want now.I'm also accumulating stuff to replace my current stuff as it wears out or gets broken.
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Post by atsfan on Jan 22, 2015 3:57:24 GMT -8
Either we can accept the price continuing to go up, or we can find a new third-world labor source to exploit... where's that sarcasm smiley? There's clearly a demand for these models, and the people buying them seem to have more money than desire to modify Walthers cars with Plano sides (which can be done far cheaper than the RTR Intermountain cars, assuming you get the Walthers racks at a discount or second hand). Even if Intermountain executed these cars flawlessly, I'm still not interested in them since I have all I need of the Walthers cars. I may or may not upgrade them with Plano sides at some point in the future. As far as the larger topic of $100 cars is concerned, well... $100 just doesn't buy today what it used to buy yesterday. My wife and I talked about this awhile back, that when we were kids we had five to ten bucks to take to the skating rink and use for admission, skate rental, a snack, a couple rounds of air hockey and so on. With our kids today it's going to be at least twenty for them to have the same experience. What changed? It's the same skating rink, concession stand and probably the same air hockey table. I remember seeing brass freight cars in the brass case at Bobbye Hall's Hobby House in Dallas when I was a kid and thought the people that buy those things must be either rich, insane or both. The one car in the case that caught my attention was an autorack and it was close to $100. Considering how much better the Intermountain car is than that brass car, and the fact that it's under $100 all these years later, I don't see the problem. I think the Intermountain cars are a deal at that price, compared to the brass car. But again, I'm content with the Walthers cars. We don't just have to accept it. There is a other option. Don't buy them. |
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Post by Christian on Jan 22, 2015 4:04:29 GMT -8
$ One hundred for a freight car (or NG Coach) is just fine for folks who want or need that class of product and can do the dollars.
Well, that is, until its a car I need or want. Then it sucks and is representative of a criminal enterprise by the (insert your choice of offensive adjectives here.)
Fortunately, so far I haven't needed or wanted any freight car costing over $20 or passenger over $30. That's just the way life has to continue for me.
If the adages about supply-and-demand+costs+profit=price are still functioning in this hobby (that's a question which might be interesting for another BS thread) there are enough folks who wish for these products and are willing to put out the dollars.
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Post by fr8kar on Jan 22, 2015 4:05:58 GMT -8
We don't just have to accept it. There is a other option. Don't buy them. If you aren't going to accept the fact that prices are subject to increase everywhere, across the board, then you aren't dealing with reality. Of course, you don't have to do that, either. |
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Post by bnsf971 on Jan 22, 2015 4:32:06 GMT -8
Ryan, you have to admit reality is overrated.
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Post by llxlocomotives on Jan 22, 2015 5:48:16 GMT -8
This is like saying the average automobile should cost $100K. Generally the features are there to add up to the cost, but the buyers aren't. The are still having trouble with $25K for a car.
The question is how many $5000 trains are you going to have?
It seem like the situation is ripe for a more cost effective approach.
These cars are from the same people who keep raising the price of wheels, while taking metal out. The wheels are now slightly lighter than a set of blue box wheels. Which is the better value?
Larry
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Post by enginseer on Jan 22, 2015 6:10:18 GMT -8
If you look further down in the ad they're asking 24 dollars for 2 Intermodal containers?
Eh, I think that's just a tad ridiculous.
I don't balk much at the cost of many items in this hobby, but some things just make you wonder about the state of mind of the manufacturers.
I mean, I know our hobby is skirting the knife edge of "niche", but geebus.
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Post by John Sheridan on Jan 22, 2015 6:15:57 GMT -8
On January 16th I noticed Intermountain Railway had announced another run of their Auto racks with etched metal sides. Of interesting items to note, I found the MSRP to be $96.95. Here is the link: www.intermountain-railway.com/news0115flyers.htmlTo my knowledge, the only other piece of rolling stock in plastic to approach or exceed the $100 price point is the Bachmann Schnabel car which is massive and composed of three parts. Do you think this will slowly become the norm with rolling stock? Do you think the price has gone too far? Do you think it's warranted because of the etched metal sides? Just curious what everyone thinks! Thanks, James What you don't see is the dealer discount is still the same for Intermountain. Many other manufacturers have lowered the discount by at least 10% or more. So what does this mean for you, the modeler ? It means the dealers have a bigger margin to use when pricing the cars. Also, the MSRP is $96.95 which is the FULL RETAIL PRICE. If you paying the full price, then you have sucker written all over you. I'm sure MB Kline, etc will have these priced out at around $77.00 bucks. Also, the size of this car is roughly the same size as a passenger car which is, ironically, about the same price which many of you gladly pay for. |
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Post by riogrande on Jan 22, 2015 6:23:22 GMT -8
Ryan, you have to admit reality is overrated. The problem is, alternate reality can cost a whole lot more depending on your poison (trains, drugs etc.)  I think most here are aware the original poster was referring to MRSP as a reference point. We didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday.  That's the reality. People can complain all they want - and it looks like we are on another binge right now lately, ahem. If product sells, it sells. For those of us who can't afford new expensive toy's - that's the way the cookie crumbles. I don't like it anymore than anyone else but I'd rather not make a lifestyle out of complaining I can't afford a luxury car, a posh house or a yacht, or endless new expensive trains. I'm in Ryan's boat - for the most part the Walthers racks are pretty decent, and although the IMR racks are ooh so shiny, I haven't bought any. For me it's a combination of: they are too new (mostly post 1991 TTX speed letter, they have warped side panels, and I have enough Walthers cars that are already late 1980's and I'm a 70's and 80's modeler. I'm waiting on a few of the Genesis open racks and hopping Genesis does a few with side panels later one to mix with my enclosed racks personally - and the cost of those is nearly half MSRP. Other than the Walthers racks being a little late in my modeling time frame, I've always been pretty happy with them. I've got around 10 of them now and may pick up a few more eventually for variety. Sure, I've thought about picking up one or two of the IMR Trailer Train logo versions - but it's been low on my want/need list and keeps getting put off, like many of the newer posh toys being offered due to oh yeah, too many other bills to pay. |
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Post by cf7 on Jan 22, 2015 6:54:17 GMT -8
I remember seeing brass freight cars in the brass case at Bobbye Hall's Hobby House in Dallas when I was a kid and thought the people that buy those things must be either rich, insane or both. I also remember going to Hall's and drooling over the brass stuff. Growing up in the 70's, there was absolutely no way I could afford anything there. Don't see many kids, or anyone for that matter, buying the new auto racks either... |
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Post by mlehman on Jan 22, 2015 9:32:20 GMT -8
If you look further down in the ad they're asking 24 dollars for 2 Intermodal containers? Eh, I think that's just a tad ridiculous. I don't balk much at the cost of many items in this hobby, but some things just make you wonder about the state of mind of the manufacturers. I mean, I know our hobby is skirting the knife edge of "niche", but geebus. Yeah, I think you're making an important point here. Pricing of RTR items can be inexplicable or just too ridiculous to contemplate. Just because some people are buying $100 cars doesn't mean that every really great car will rate such a premium or that cheaper items can similarly be marked up. That's why I used the example of the Blackstone coach versus the IMRC auto-rack. I've built both and the coach (in both wood and plastic, not Blackstone but the functional equivalent) is far more trouble and work to get it looking good. I have no problem buying something assembled for ~$100(MSRP) that the parts for would cost me close to $50. Then throw in my time and it's a wash as far as costs go, but usually the RTR is a far nicer end product. I've not built any IMRC racks with vandal screens, as that's past my timeframe. I can throw one of those together in less than an hour w/o 'em, though. No way is it something I'll buy based on the effort I avoided by doing so. The $$ and cents don't add up. Still, I suspect they'll sell plenty of RTR autoracks. There's no doubt Blackstone will sell out of the even more nichey (rhymes with "twitchy") Rio Grande coach. So as far as that's concerned, both companies are happy with the results, but I suspect Blackstone will end up the better off in terms of customer perception of value for price. |
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Post by chessie77 on Jan 22, 2015 10:41:54 GMT -8
I think I will stick with the Accurail kits for my autoracks as I model 1975.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 22, 2015 11:03:10 GMT -8
I think I will stick with the Accurail kits for my autoracks as I model 1975. Those should work. I have a couple of them myself in my box O kits, and a few RTR racks from Accurail too. It seems open racks, while getting few in number were still floating around in the early 80's too. The big missing gap are the "transision" racks, which include the original open racks with side panels added (Accurail offered a few kits like this but not that many around on the market) and also semi-enclosed racks, which are similar to the IMR/Walthers racks but with no roof, no end doors or a combination of those features. |
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Post by stevewagner on Jan 22, 2015 11:15:39 GMT -8
Riogrande (and others),
Note that Accurail sells a set of enough side panels to equip three of the open bilevel racks. See the parts page on their website. Good for making more transitional autorack cars.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 22, 2015 11:34:11 GMT -8
Riogrande (and others), Note that Accurail sells a set of enough side panels to equip three of the open bilevel racks. See the parts page on their website. Good for making more transitional autorack cars. Great idea. It would be handy to add some to a few of my open racks. They should offer the side panels for the tri-levels too! |
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Post by kcjones on Jan 22, 2015 11:57:26 GMT -8
I think Mike's point is valid. At what point or price is RTR no longer RTR. To me anything in HOn3 is museum quality. Plus anything that is going to lose or break parts off just because it splits a switch is not RTR. Yes I will buy a 100.00 car, but it will probably stay parked. I still can't find a missing corner step on one of my Rapido baggage cars.
Jl
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Jan 22, 2015 12:11:04 GMT -8
$100 price for rollingstock sucks. The end.
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