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Post by WP 257 on Feb 14, 2015 7:21:45 GMT -8
I just ordered a CP as-built (early) version GMD SD40-2 from Bowser's retail store a couple days ago. Rich, the retail store sales manager who is also one of the people involved in the research and development of new models, said it will be "more like" June in part because the final pilot models have not been (even delivered?) approved yet. If I recall correctly from past conversations with Rich, once the final pilot models have been approved it normally takes anywhere from 6 weeks to 2 months (or slightly longer, perhaps 3 months) depending upon any shipping delays (right now ships are stacked up waiting to get into port and there's a strike at at least one western US port). At the present time, June is a reasonable estimate, unless somebody else (who actually works for Bowser) happens to be reading this topic and cares to post.
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Post by notabob on Feb 14, 2015 9:41:55 GMT -8
I just ordered a CP as-built (early) version GMD SD40-2 from Bowser's retail store a couple days ago. Rich, the retail store sales manager who is also one of the people involved in the research and development of new models, said it will be "more like" June in part because the final pilot models have not been (even delivered?) approved yet. If I recall correctly from past conversations with Rich, once the final pilot models have been approved it normally takes anywhere from 6 weeks to 2 months (or slightly longer, perhaps 3 months) depending upon any shipping delays (right now ships are stacked up waiting to get into port and there's a strike at at least one western US port). At the present time, June is a reasonable estimate, unless somebody else (who actually works for Bowser) happens to be reading this topic and cares to post. Thanks! Hopefully that schedule will hold, but if not - it won't be the first time a model was delayed and I'm sure most of us will live.
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Post by TBird1958 on Feb 14, 2015 10:09:42 GMT -8
All U.S. West Coast ports are on a work slowdown, in fact they aren't even working this weekend. As I understand it, ships are not leaving Asia for West Coast ports right now.
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Post by WP 257 on Feb 14, 2015 14:36:36 GMT -8
My personal opinion is I'd rather they take the time to get all the necessary corrections made--be it painting, lettering diagrams, etc. I don't need the model to show up until it's "right".
That said, I fully expect the GMD SD40-2 to be amazing and (with the individually controllable classification lights) to be truly worthy of comparison to the Athearn Genesis series offerings.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Feb 14, 2015 15:20:00 GMT -8
My personal opinion is I'd rather they take the time to get all the necessary corrections made--be it painting, lettering diagrams, etc. I don't need the model to show up until it's "right". That said, I fully expect the GMD SD40-2 to be amazing and (with the individually controllable classification lights) every bit the equal of (if not actually better than) anything named "Genesis". I have seen and touched and practically drooled over the unpainted sample bodies, and imo (as somewhat of an Alco lover who only begrudgingly came to accept the prototypes) the SD40-2 bodies I saw were more nicely done than anything they've done previously (including the C-430)--with everything crisply detailed and fitting "just right". Bowser has also clearly stated they will all have the new (better) motor. I can't help but to respond to this post. Since Athearn seems to be absent of a resident shill, I thought I might level the playing field. You served as Bowser's shill on the old Atlas and now the Rescue forum. We get. You are tight with the English family. But, to me at least, they could serve you a pile of turds and you'd tell the world how good they taste. I understand, Bowser and you are home boys. Lack of perceived or actual quality control aside, if you can post something unflattering about Athearn you do. I go back to all your negative posts about Athearn products. I can only assume you truly hate the company. I doubt Athearn could make you happy even if they paid you. What do you gain out of constantly knocking Athearn? I'm not a real big fan of Intermountain's locomotive offerings, but I don't feel I need to drive home my dislike every chance I get. There are some tremendous Genesis locomotives that have been produced. Athearn continues to push the envelope and release new products. Bowser too, has produced some extraordinary new products. They too, continue to push the envelope. To say they are better? I'd like to see some neutral reviews of the two companies products, which is difficult simply because other than saying both produce HO models, neither is doing the same model. So direct comparison is not available. Both do some things very well and both have weaknesses. I've yet to see any manufacturer perfect....perfection.
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Post by atsfan on Feb 14, 2015 18:56:55 GMT -8
My personal opinion is I'd rather they take the time to get all the necessary corrections made--be it painting, lettering diagrams, etc. I don't need the model to show up until it's "right". That said, I fully expect the GMD SD40-2 to be amazing and (with the individually controllable classification lights) every bit the equal of (if not actually better than) anything named "Genesis". I have seen and touched and practically drooled over the unpainted sample bodies, and imo (as somewhat of an Alco lover who only begrudgingly came to accept the prototypes) the SD40-2 bodies I saw were more nicely done than anything they've done previously (including the C-430)--with everything crisply detailed and fitting "just right". Bowser has also clearly stated they will all have the new (better) motor. It isn't a contest. If they are nice, great. Athearn also makes nice products. Personally I don't own any Bowser engines since I don't need any Alcos.
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Post by atsfan on Feb 14, 2015 18:57:38 GMT -8
All U.S. West Coast ports are on a work slowdown, in fact they aren't even working this weekend. As I understand it, ships are not leaving Asia for West Coast ports right now. The Panama Canal widening can't come soon enough to avoid that mess.
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Post by WP 257 on Feb 14, 2015 21:29:08 GMT -8
I can't help but to respond to this post. Since Athearn seems to be absent of a resident shill, I thought I might level the playing field. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say in the post above. It has now been edited for clarity. It appears you, sir, have missed some of my posts where I have very clearly stated, on these very forums, that Athearn makes some products I would dearly love to buy--but I can't (in trips to multiple stores) personally find an example that is ok, that doesn't have some (too many) QA/QC issues that I can't fix (I have tried to fix them). So I don't think it is fair to characterize me as "hating" Athearn. In fact, I've actually spent a small fortune on Athearn products through the years--many thousands of dollars. Many of my freight cars are and have always been Athearn. I just traded for two new Athearn freight cars today. In the past I posted very favorable comments about the Athearn Genesis Big Boy (I owned the slightly too heavily factory weathered version, and it was a joy to operate) and the SP Genesis non-streamlined 4-8-2, and the SP lightweight chair cars with individually varying interior colors, and the SP cabooses with lights, but apparently you missed all those posts, along with my praise for the near-Genesis detailing and exceptional quality of the (previous run) SD45T-2's (haven't seen any new run units except one--they came and went fast). I also posted very favorable comments about the packaging of the F45/FP45's--as at least for all the ones I saw, it worked--the models didn't get damaged in shipping as much as some previous releases (I had experienced shipping damage to Genesis SD45-2's). If the execution of the finished Genesis models was as good as the design and detailing, I doubt that I'd buy anything else. As a matter of fact, I don't currently own a Bowser engine at all (sold them all after reading some very negative reviews on these forums that robbed any joy of ownership I had). I don't currently own any Bowser freight cars either (just sold some H30's to a friend today). Please examine all the facts before labeling me as anything. Have a good day, sir. P.S. If you or anyone else wants to give me an Athearn Genesis Santa Fe GP-50, or GP-7u, even the regular SD40-2, I'd certainly take it--but I'm not having good fortune finding any at all, or any that aren't damaged or otherwise have QA/QC issues. It is not that I'm not out there looking for them, because I am.
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Post by WP 257 on Feb 14, 2015 21:53:14 GMT -8
It isn't a contest. If they are nice, great. Athearn also makes nice products. Personally I don't own any Bowser engines since I don't need any Alcos. Certainly fair enough--I wouldn't expect a Santa Fe fan (unless it's 1960's or earlier) to need any Alcos. That's always been my internal conflict. I like Santa Fe, but they mostly (wisely?) avoided the late Alco's. That's why I say I begrudgingly came to admire the EMD Dash 2 series engines. They were (still are) just so darn reliable, bulletproof...everything an Alco fan wishes would have been true of Alco, but wasn't. When the ever-present Dash 2's wore Conrail blue here in the east, some of us were just plain bored. Then all the pretty blue vanished under a sea of even more boring black and we realized what we had taken for granted, but too late. Now Dash 2's on mainline trains, at least on the old Middle Division, are nearly an endangered species (though still are used on secondary trains).
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Feb 15, 2015 7:04:19 GMT -8
I can't help but to respond to this post. Since Athearn seems to be absent of a resident shill, I thought I might level the playing field. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say in the post above. It has now been edited for clarity. It appears you, sir, have missed some of my posts where I have very clearly stated, on these very forums, that Athearn makes some products I would dearly love to buy--but I can't (in trips to multiple stores) personally find an example that is ok, that doesn't have some (too many) QA/QC issues that I can't fix (I have tried to fix them). So I don't think it is fair to characterize me as "hating" Athearn. In fact, I've actually spent a small fortune on Athearn products through the years--many thousands of dollars. Many of my freight cars are and have always been Athearn. I just traded for two new Athearn freight cars today. In the past I posted very favorable comments about the Athearn Genesis Big Boy (I owned the slightly too heavily factory weathered version, and it was a joy to operate) and the SP Genesis non-streamlined 4-8-2, and the SP lightweight chair cars with individually varying interior colors, and the SP cabooses with lights, but apparently you missed all those posts, along with my praise for the near-Genesis detailing and exceptional quality of the (previous run) SD45T-2's (haven't seen any new run units except one--they came and went fast). I also posted very favorable comments about the packaging of the F45/FP45's--as at least for all the ones I saw, it worked--the models didn't get damaged in shipping as much as some previous releases (I had experienced shipping damage to Genesis SD45-2's). If the execution of the finished Genesis models was as good as the design and detailing, I doubt that I'd buy anything else. As a matter of fact, I don't currently own a Bowser engine at all (sold them all after reading some very negative reviews on these forums that robbed any joy of ownership I had). I don't currently own any Bowser freight cars either (just sold some H30's to a friend today). Please examine all the facts before labeling me as anything. Have a good day, sir. P.S. If you or anyone else wants to give me an Athearn Genesis Santa Fe GP-50, or GP-7u, even the regular SD40-2, I'd certainly take it--but I'm not having good fortune finding any at all, or any that aren't damaged or otherwise have QA/QC issues. It is not that I'm not out there looking for them, because I am. My exception to your original post was that Bowser's new GMD was better than anything from the Genesis line. There is some very good models in the Genesis line. The Highliner shelled Genesis F is the best car body model today. There could be even more refinements to that model like having porthole windows removed, commuter variations, etc. Now, I do agree that wavy handrails, broken parts and shoddy assembly are issues for Athearn. It seems you and I are some of the few that like the F/FP45 and some Genesis F's which were mounted on a block of masonite with screws. My LHS HATED that packaging as did most of the customers. I personally think the clam shell packaging is the pits. It mars the paint and allows more shocks to the model during shipping, which leads to breakage. So are we cool? I truly meant no real animosity towards you in my post, just that Athearn also makes some of the best models previously and currently available.
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Post by atsfan on Feb 15, 2015 7:44:31 GMT -8
It isn't a contest. If they are nice, great. Athearn also makes nice products. Personally I don't own any Bowser engines since I don't need any Alcos. Certainly fair enough--I wouldn't expect a Santa Fe fan (unless it's 1960's or earlier) to need any Alcos. That's always been my internal conflict. I like Santa Fe, but they mostly (wisely?) avoided the late Alco's. That's why I say I begrudgingly came to admire the EMD Dash 2 series engines. They were (still are) just so darn reliable, bulletproof...everything an Alco fan wishes would have been true of Alco, but wasn't. When the ever-present Dash 2's wore Conrail blue here in the east, some of us were just plain bored. Then all the pretty blue vanished under a sea of even more boring black and we realized what we had taken for granted, but too late. Now Dash 2's on mainline trains, at least on the old Middle Division, are nearly an endangered species (though still are used on secondary trains). I wish Bowser makes a USA version of the 40-2. I saw the test shells in Cleveland and they looked nice.
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Post by atsfan on Feb 15, 2015 7:46:16 GMT -8
I can't help but to respond to this post. Since Athearn seems to be absent of a resident shill, I thought I might level the playing field. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say in the post above. It has now been edited for clarity. P.S. If you or anyone else wants to give me an Athearn Genesis Santa Fe GP-50, or GP-7u, even the regular SD40-2, I'd certainly take it--but I'm not having good fortune finding any at all, or any that aren't damaged or otherwise have QA/QC issues. It is not that I'm not out there looking for them, because I am. The ATSF GP50s are out there. Without quality issues. Keep looking as I found them and I did not look that hard.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2015 9:12:39 GMT -8
Certainly fair enough--I wouldn't expect a Santa Fe fan (unless it's 1960's or earlier) to need any Alcos. That's always been my internal conflict. I like Santa Fe, but they mostly (wisely?) avoided the late Alco's... Santa Fe Alcos were common in southern California thru the 1970s. Most switchers were Alcos and RSD-15s were running over Tehachapi and Cajon The York Canyon NM to Kaiser Steel Fontana coal trains could have six or more Alligators. www.railpictures.net/photo/373190www.railpictures.net/photo/450494/
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Post by WP 257 on Feb 15, 2015 11:21:10 GMT -8
My exception to your original post was that Bowser's new GMD was better than anything from the Genesis line. There is some very good models in the Genesis line. The Highliner shelled Genesis F is the best car body model today. There could be even more refinements to that model like having porthole windows removed, commuter variations, etc. Now, I do agree that wavy handrails, broken parts and shoddy assembly are issues for Athearn. It seems you and I are some of the few that like the F/FP45 and some Genesis F's which were mounted on a block of masonite with screws. My LHS HATED that packaging as did most of the customers. I personally think the clam shell packaging is the pits. It mars the paint and allows more shocks to the model during shipping, which leads to breakage. So are we cool? I truly meant no real animosity towards you in my post, just that Athearn also makes some of the best models previously and currently available. Hi Jim-- My original post was trying to say that I actually think Bowser's new GMD SD40-2 will actually be at least as good as some Athearn Genesis engines. It was not meant to be a slam against Athearn Genesis, and I didn't mean to say that they were going to be better than all the Genesis engines, but that this one might actually be...well perhaps better than some...because of the cool lighting effects. If you are the "little guy", who would you set your sights on trying to beat? It would be Athearn/Genesis, right, would it not? I have been extremely frustrated, disappointed, even broken-hearted, whatever word you want to fill in there that I have actually spent hours and hours (and considerable gasoline) sorting through some Athearn models at "local" train stores--to not find acceptable quality in any of the models I wanted. Perhaps I reacted out of that frustration/sheer disappointment in the post above. We are ok. John
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Post by WP 257 on Feb 15, 2015 11:32:29 GMT -8
Certainly fair enough--I wouldn't expect a Santa Fe fan (unless it's 1960's or earlier) to need any Alcos. That's always been my internal conflict. I like Santa Fe, but they mostly (wisely?) avoided the late Alco's... Santa Fe Alcos were common in southern California thru the 1970s. Most switchers were Alcos and RSD-15s were running over Tehachapi and Cajon The York Canyon NM to Kaiser Steel Fontana coal trains could have six or more Alligators. www.railpictures.net/photo/373190www.railpictures.net/photo/450494/Ah, yes, for a few brief years in the late '60's prior to replacement by newer EMD and GE diesels (U-boats and SD39's on those coal trains, at various times). There is also a Vanishing Vistas postcard that says the Alligators were "banned" on Tehachapi after some time in January, 1973 (because they were no longer "reliable" enough). They were decent engines, used hard, and then shuffled off for resale at/just before the end of their 15-year equipment trusts. But among railroads, most people will remember Santa Fe during the diesel era as being mainly an "EMD road". Sure they had a couple hundred U-boats during the 1970's, but it's fair to say that they purchased more EMD's. Some of those Alligator switchers in southern California were the rebuilt Alligators that had EMD engines installed, so I couldn't really count them as "Alcos" anymore. YMMV. Respectfully submitted-- John
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Feb 15, 2015 11:44:44 GMT -8
My exception to your original post was that Bowser's new GMD was better than anything from the Genesis line. There is some very good models in the Genesis line. The Highliner shelled Genesis F is the best car body model today. There could be even more refinements to that model like having porthole windows removed, commuter variations, etc. Now, I do agree that wavy handrails, broken parts and shoddy assembly are issues for Athearn. It seems you and I are some of the few that like the F/FP45 and some Genesis F's which were mounted on a block of masonite with screws. My LHS HATED that packaging as did most of the customers. I personally think the clam shell packaging is the pits. It mars the paint and allows more shocks to the model during shipping, which leads to breakage. So are we cool? I truly meant no real animosity towards you in my post, just that Athearn also makes some of the best models previously and currently available. Hi Jim-- My original post was trying to say that I actually think Bowser's new GMD SD40-2 will actually be at least as good as some Athearn Genesis engines. It was not meant to be a slam against Athearn Genesis, and I didn't mean to say that they were going to be better than all the Genesis engines, but that this one might actually be...well perhaps better than some...because of the cool lighting effects. If you are the "little guy", who would you set your sights on trying to beat? It would be Athearn/Genesis, right, would it not? I have been extremely frustrated, disappointed, even broken-hearted, whatever word you want to fill in there that I have actually spent hours and hours (and considerable gasoline) sorting through some Athearn models at "local" train stores--to not find acceptable quality in any of the models I wanted. Perhaps I reacted out of that frustration/sheer disappointment in the post above. We are ok. John I believe that the Bowser C-430 and C-636 are in the top five of all time great mass produced models(excludes brass). I'm pretty darn sure that Bowser will deliver a knock out GMD SD40-2. Bowser has to be given a lot of credit for its efforts over the last few years. The company was criticized as resting on the past tooling of Stewart. But Bowser has taken the bull by the horns and is now refining and improving the past Stewart models. It is no longer a Stewart model with the Bowser name. I'd recommend that instead of applying the handrails, manufacturers leave them off and let the modeler apply them. Less chance for breakage. Athearn also has to stop pumping out product like counterfeit twenty's. This glut of product is in my opinion the reason Athearn has the quality issues. Too much product, produced too fast leads to handrails being released from the die to soon, which leads to shrinkage, which leads to the infamous leans. Time is money, but getting these things back also has to cost money.
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Post by WP 257 on Feb 15, 2015 11:56:15 GMT -8
I would vote for modeler application because when some manufacturers glue them on now they seem to be more brittle and easier to break than handrails were before. This is partly because Celcon and ABS are being used instead of the old delrin, because Celcon and ABS are better able to hold paint with a thinner required paint film.
To me the best handrails yet (excluding metal ones) have been the Proto RS-27. But those were delrin--they take a beating, but had to be dyed and then over time the paint color on the model may not match the dyed delrin handrails.
If I'm applying the handrails, I can choose where to glue--or not glue at all. So I would vote for modeler application.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2015 12:42:43 GMT -8
I would vote for modeler application because when some manufacturers glue them on now they seem to be more brittle and easier to break than handrails were before. This is partly because Celcon and ABS are being used instead of the old delrin, because Celcon and ABS are better able to hold paint with a thinner required paint film. To me the best handrails yet (excluding metal ones) have been the Proto RS-27. But those were delrin--they take a beating, but had to be dyed and then over time the paint color on the model may not match the dyed delrin handrails. If I'm applying the handrails, I can choose where to glue--or not glue at all. So I would vote for modeler application. Celcon and Delrin are the same thing, polyoxymethylene aka polyacetal. It is a slippery plastic that can not be bonded with solvents like MEK or acetone. ABS is acrylonitrile butadiene styrene and can be bonded with MEK.
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Post by atsfan on Feb 15, 2015 13:12:01 GMT -8
I liked Kato's handrails from 10 years ago. You installed them, but it was easy. And they did not bend !!
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Post by WP 257 on Feb 15, 2015 16:06:20 GMT -8
Perhaps I've not received the best information, but I've been told that Delrin and Celcon are not exactly the same formulation. The Delrin handrails used by Kato and others years ago seem to be much more durable than the Celcon ones being used now. Is it because the celcon ones are too thin? Or is it because the material is actually slightly different, or both?
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Feb 15, 2015 19:10:18 GMT -8
From what I've been told, there's also a certain percentage of "re-grind" that's put into the handrail plastic mix. Re-grind is previously shot plastic that is ground up and put back into the injection machine. It's cheaper than using 100% new plastic. The more re-grind, the less quality you get; however, the price goes down significantly.
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