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Post by Judge Doom on Jun 30, 2015 13:22:35 GMT -8
atsfan, You forgot No lites in Locos,so that Poll is Flawed !! Spikre There's absolutely no point in including that option, you'd get even more complaints with no lights supplied than crappy lights supplied. There's maybe 2-3 people at best on here that would prefer lightless locos.
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Post by Spikre on Jul 1, 2015 12:26:08 GMT -8
Mr Judge, with out a No Lite Option , how can we be sure what the results would be ? Polls should include All Options. Spikre
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Post by roadkill on Jul 1, 2015 18:22:37 GMT -8
Athearn has terrible light bulbs and spotty handrails. They know it. They know modelers don't like them. And they don't care. Pretty simple situation. Al, I may have to get some of those kits. Supposedly the handrail issue may be fixed, at least on the upcoming run of Gennie C&NW chopped Geeps.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jul 2, 2015 10:52:05 GMT -8
Mr Judge, with out a No Lite Option , how can we be sure what the results would be ? Polls should include All Options. Spikre I'm pretty sure the results would be the vast majority of the people polled would want their expensive models to at least come with some form of lighting, nobody wants to fork out a few hundered for a DCC/Sound Genesis SDP45 and have to install lights, of all things, in it. To think anything else is delusional. That's like asking for automobiles without seats installed, except the driver's seat.
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Post by atsfan on Jul 2, 2015 11:45:46 GMT -8
Spike I could also have included oil lamps or candles
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Post by mlehman on Jul 2, 2015 17:41:59 GMT -8
Mr Judge, with out a No Lite Option , how can we be sure what the results would be ? Polls should include All Options. Spikre I think I'd consider no lights as a non-option. I sure wouldn't want to have to explain to the boss why we should invest in a round of a separate SKU without lights...bet those things would sit on the shelf for a decade, at least before ebay. Now that there's ebay, sure, they'd end up there after six months and Spikre could get them cheap, real cheap...so you see where this is going, but it's not exactly a model of a sustainable hobby in terms of business sense.
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Post by lajrmdlr on Jul 2, 2015 18:47:08 GMT -8
My big beef is the locos being made w/ headlights changing directions automatically every time the loco direction is changed. That's NOT the way the real locos are operated. ONLY model locos operate that way! Real locos working the yards will have both headlights on at all times. But road locos never turn rear headlights when making a reverse move. Most times they have cars behind them anyway so what good are rear headlights in that case!
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Post by sd80mac on Jul 2, 2015 19:48:33 GMT -8
My big beef is the locos being made w/ headlights changing directions automatically every time the loco direction is changed. That's NOT the way the real locos are operated. ONLY model locos operate that way! Real locos working the yards will have both headlights on at all times. But road locos never turn rear headlights when making a reverse move. Most times they have cars behind them anyway so what good are rear headlights in that case! That's what DCC is for. All of my engines are set up for independently controlled headlights.
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Post by lajrmdlr on Jul 3, 2015 10:11:16 GMT -8
My big beef is the locos being made w/ headlights changing directions automatically every time the loco direction is changed. That's NOT the way the real locos are operated. ONLY model locos operate that way! Real locos working the yards will have both headlights on at all times. But road locos never turn rear headlights when making a reverse move. Most times they have cars behind them anyway so what good are rear headlights in that case! That's what DCC is for. All of my engines are set up for independently controlled headlights. That' a given but why do we have to change from automatic reversing. Why don't the DCC makers set them up to operate the prototype way then is the user wants to change it they can!
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Post by mlehman on Jul 3, 2015 13:16:22 GMT -8
SNIP That' a given but why do we have to change from automatic reversing. Why don't the DCC makers set them up to operate the prototype way then is the user wants to change it they can! I don't think the answer is immediately obvious, but I know two good reasons why the default is for auto-reversing headlights... At the factory, having auto-reverse enabled aids in the quality control process. Having the lights change per direction of the loco verifies both are wired properly and that the motor leads are likewise wired correctly. If you get lights at one end, but travel in the opposite direction, it's obvious there's a problem. For the end user, no matter what their level of experience or knowledge, the lights being set to auto-reverse is easy to understand out of the box. Turn the lights on, they light in direction of movement. If they were set to manual control, there a certain large percentage of consumers who would never read the instructions, let alone understand, the procedure to enable light direction manually in the direction of travel. Many of those units would likely end up returned for "warranty" reasons, despite there being nothing wrong with them. Auto-reverse out of the box eliminates that issue for the most part. I also suspect it has something to do with economizing on Function key assignments. With auto-reversing, a single key handles things. With manual operation you need two F keys, one to turn each on and off. That was a bigger deal in the early days of DCC, not so much now, but there's a de facto standard in place now that observes the practice of auto-reversing.
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Post by lajrmdlr on Jul 3, 2015 14:22:12 GMT -8
Mike Those seem to be very lame excuses for the manufacturers to be following. The auto headlight reversing has been going on for 50 +/- years in DC & about 20 years in DCC. In all that time nobody has thought of any circuits to do lighting the prototype way & to test the lights? We're paying up to/over $300.00 for HO locos & we're still stuck w/ this auto reversing headlights!!!!
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Post by bdhicks on Jul 3, 2015 16:16:42 GMT -8
The DCC standard defines the default behavior of the headlight wires, just as it defines the default address. That doesn't mean you can't reprogram either one.
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Post by lajrmdlr on Jul 3, 2015 19:40:05 GMT -8
That doesn't mean you can't reprogram either one. My point is why should we have to reprogram them in the first place!
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Post by mlehman on Jul 3, 2015 23:05:01 GMT -8
My point is why should we have to reprogram them in the first place! Because it's a small price to pay so that stupid people can enjoy lights on their locos? I think Atlas may do this in some cases. IIRC my FM came set-up with manual lighting controls. Either that or I reprogrammed it that way early in and didn't realize it. I gotta admit I then reprogrammed it so it was like the rest of the fleet, because it was confusing to deal with...which means I'm admitting to being one of those lazy, dumb folks who isn't particularly bothered by having the decoder do the thinking for me on this. I figure if management won't give me a fireman to help, then the least they can do is make the lights auto-reversing. I do enjoy the benefits of Rule 17 dimming and use it. Now if I could just figure out how to implement it on all my locos. It may seem lame to try to outwit potential warranty return problems, but I'm sure the impact on profits is enough to be a consideration. This is low-hanging fruit, costs practically nothing to implement, and all the avoided costs go to the bottom line. It's also something that sells the benefits of the loco to the average consumer, who still make up the bulk of customer for the industry. And consider that it's usually folks who care about such things like you who are more likely to have the skills to program in how they want it than it is for those who would want autoreversing -- if only they could figure out how to program it that way. It's a small sacrifice to make something easy for the rookie. I know the difference, but it's other thing I prefer to pay attention to. There's room for both in the hobby, but there won't be any hobby if we raise the bars to participation in it needlessly.
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Post by bnsf971 on Jul 4, 2015 2:48:53 GMT -8
On some of my newer factory DCC-equipped engines, When you select the headlights, both front and rear come on dim. They will automatically brighten in the direction of travel when speed step 1 is reached. While not perfect as far as real world operations, I find it better than the way most models still work. I have a mental picture of a little HO scale engineer inside the cab, frantically flipping headlight switches while I'm switching a train...
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Post by mlehman on Jul 4, 2015 5:42:26 GMT -8
Terry, I think having both directions of lights always on dim on the prototype might actually be a safety feature in congested areas. It would keep people aware the engine is live and the brightening of the headlight would get people's attention if it came on when moving towards them...maybe the RRs could find a new idea from the model RR community? With the computerization of new locos, should even be easy to implement auto-reversing lights, sorta like programming a giant decoder... . Probably need to be restricted to certain areas, like yards, etc just so no one is confused by it out on the main. OK, putting on my lead-lined underwear after that one...
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Post by bnsf971 on Jul 4, 2015 6:44:05 GMT -8
Terry, I think having both directions of lights always on dim on the prototype might actually be a safety feature in congested areas. It would keep people aware the engine is live and the brightening of the headlight would get people's attention if it came on when moving towards them...maybe the RRs could find a new idea from the model RR community? With the computerization of new locos, should even be easy to implement auto-reversing lights, sorta like programming a giant decoder... . Probably need to be restricted to certain areas, like yards, etc just so it isn't confused by it out on the main. OK, putting on my lead-lined underwear after that one... Auto-reversing headlights on the prototype would be a relatively easy thing to do, if railroads wanted to do it for some reason. A pair of switches on the reverser circuit, and one for the throttle, and the real trains would then look just like our models. Mike, I'll loan you one of my asbestos Tee shirts, we may both need them...
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 4, 2015 7:03:14 GMT -8
Andy, You're not "stuck" with auto-reversing lights because you can change them with a little bit of programming (it's sort of like complaining that your DCC decoders are all "stuck" on Address 03 from the factory). The majority of model railroaders want directional lighting because most of them simply put the engine on the track and run in circles. Fiddling with headlights every time they move is not something the majority wants to do.
It's not 100% realistic, but then there are lots of things in this hobby that aren't 100% realistic. Kadee couplers, Code 110 wheels, RP25 flanges, Code 100 track, large coupler boxes, tight radius curves, the widespread use of #4 and #6 switches, etc. Yet the hobby uses such things in very large percentages. If you want more realism, then you have to buck the common denominator and go towards Proto:87 standards. Meanwhile, the manufacturers will continue to gear towards the majority because that's where the money is.
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Post by Spikre on Jul 4, 2015 8:04:56 GMT -8
with No Lites,one doesn't need to be a slave to the vagaries of DCC !! and can even spend More Time actually Running Trains ! Spikre
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Post by lajrmdlr on Jul 4, 2015 10:11:52 GMT -8
Andy, You're not "stuck" with auto-reversing lights because you can change them with a little bit of programming . It's easy to program the loco's number but it's not that easy to program the headlights to work like the prototypes especially among different decoder makers. Too bad the decoders aren't made to push a button or two to get the headlights to work the way the user wants. But am very glad my system is NCE! And having worked as a RR conductor don't just run willy nilly roundy round & really want the headlights to work the right way!
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Post by atsfan on Jul 4, 2015 12:33:59 GMT -8
with No Lites,one doesn't need to be a slave to the vagaries of DCC !! and can even spend More Time actually Running Trains ! Spikre Spike do you seriously operate your engines with no headlights on purpose ?
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Post by mlehman on Jul 4, 2015 15:29:37 GMT -8
SNIP It's easy to program the loco's number but it's not that easy to program the headlights to work like the prototypes especially among different decoder makers. Too bad the decoders aren't made to push a button or two to get the headlights to work the way the user wants. But am very glad my system is NCE! And having worked as a RR conductor don't just run willy nilly roundy round & really want the headlights to work the right way! Andy, Gotta agree with you on NCE. Digitrax confuses me. Then again, it seems to confuse the majority of those around here who use it, but they keep coming back for more for some reason. Your comment on programming lighting being more arcane than it needs to be is also very apt. That's why I mentioned Rule 17 lighting, which should be even easier, but often isn't. This is something many of us wimp-core operators would like to be able to use, but for some reason about one-third of my locos promise it works, but I'll be darned if I can persuade it to.
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Post by lajrmdlr on Jul 4, 2015 18:02:01 GMT -8
Yes Mike would rather be just operating trains vs programing everything all the time. So maybe will just leave the lights OFF! My first DCC experience was on Digitrax so learned to like DCC very much. Then joined a module club that got suckered into buying Digitrax. Didn't take too long to find out it was the WRONG system but by then they had too much invested in it. Besides their manuals are written by ALIEN geeks who don't know beans how to use the English language!
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Post by rapidotrains on Jul 4, 2015 19:21:52 GMT -8
My big beef is the locos being made w/ headlights changing directions automatically every time the loco direction is changed. That's NOT the way the real locos are operated. ONLY model locos operate that way! Real locos working the yards will have both headlights on at all times. But road locos never turn rear headlights when making a reverse move. Most times they have cars behind them anyway so what good are rear headlights in that case! This man hasn't bought a Rapido loco lately.... -Jason
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Post by lajrmdlr on Jul 4, 2015 20:08:27 GMT -8
My big beef is the locos being made w/ headlights changing directions automatically every time the loco direction is changed. That's NOT the way the real locos are operated. ONLY model locos operate that way! Real locos working the yards will have both headlights on at all times. But road locos never turn rear headlights when making a reverse move. Most times they have cars behind them anyway so what good are rear headlights in that case! This man hasn't bought a Rapido loco lately.... -Jason Rapido doesn't make any locos that EVER ran on the Los Angeles Junction Rwy!
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Post by bnsf971 on Jul 5, 2015 4:14:53 GMT -8
I remember when directional lighting first appeared en masse in the mid 1980s. It was hailed as another step toward realistic operation. In reality, it was simply easier to manufacture a mechanism with an LED and resistor at each end, rather than a bunch of wires and/or light tubes to illuminate the headlights. It's become expected to have directional lighting. One of the reasons I went the DCC route back in the 1990s was for elimination of the directional lighting.
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Post by mlehman on Jul 5, 2015 5:30:09 GMT -8
SNIP One of the reasons I went the DCC route back in the 1990s was for elimination of the directional lighting. And there you go. What really matters is whether or not you have that extensive option list. I'd hate to get back to a situation that limited what could be done or changed. Sure, the factory sometimes makes bad choices, but so long as it's a variable that can be altered it's all good.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jul 5, 2015 12:12:44 GMT -8
Those who seek more realistic control and loco operations...usually go to DCC to get it
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Post by Dear Leader on Jul 5, 2015 14:19:34 GMT -8
Yes Mike would rather be just operating trains vs programing everything all the time. So maybe will just leave the lights OFF! My first DCC experience was on Digitrax so learned to like DCC very much. Then joined a module club that got suckered into buying Digitrax. Didn't take too long to find out it was the WRONG system but by then they had too much invested in it. Besides their manuals are written by ALIEN geeks who don't know beans how to use the English language! Andy, it's not the wrong system, it's just wrong for you. I like Digitrax, I have tired NCE, but it's not for me. NCE is not the wrong system, just not right for me. Again, it's all just toy trains, and grown men playing with toy trains.
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Post by Spikre on Jul 5, 2015 17:39:55 GMT -8
atsfan, if You read the previous post that stated which locos get the "Dark" treatment,You would have Your answer. but to rehash- it is mainly BB locos,Stewart/Athearn locos,and built up Athearn powered chassis that are involved. Atlas, Kato, Proto 2000, Stewart-Kato Fs,but not U25Bs or AS616s/AS416s. and odd balls like the MRC/Lima C420s,they keep lites until they blow. so they do get to run on Uni-Track ,some dark,some with lites. the Stewart C628 cab has me puzzled,is it worth installing those PITA lite bars,or just ignore the class lites,and maybe the head lite also ? Spikre
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