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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Oct 13, 2015 6:35:16 GMT -8
In Chicago an Edward G. Budd Car Manufacturing Company bi-level stainless steel commuter car is as common as clout in City Hall. There are actually two distinct styles. The first was built for the CB&Q and has fluting consistent with a standard single level intercity Budd passenger car like a car on the California Zephyr. The second is a narrow fluting more like what is found on the roof of a standard Budd built car but the entire body has this narrow fluting. These cars were built for the Rock Island and the Milwaukee Road. All the cars were transferred to the Regional Transportation Authority or RTA and then to RTA's rail operation Metra. Metra has been retiring the oldest of the former CB&Q cars which have been finding homes with new commuter agencies after a freshening up. The former Milwaukee and Rock Island cars still are used every day. In recent years Metra has stopped using the Budd cab cars in that role and removed the horns, headlights and in some cases blanked the cab windows. CB&Q   Milwaukee Road - Rock Island   Interest |
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Post by atsfan on Oct 13, 2015 6:38:37 GMT -8
Didnt Kato make something similar?
There is a new version of these used on some commuter trains today.
They have bigger windows.
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Post by rockfan on Oct 13, 2015 6:54:48 GMT -8
I can't believe Walthers or Kato hasn't made them yet. Rock Island only had ten smooth sided cars, the rest were Budds.
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Post by nightmare0331 on Oct 13, 2015 8:28:49 GMT -8
Kato and Walthers both made the smooth side Pullman Standard cars in HO.
In N scale, Kato made the more modern Nippon Sharyo bilevel commuter cars...not the Budd cars.
Very regional stuff.
Enjoy!
Kelley.
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Post by Spikre on Oct 13, 2015 10:01:56 GMT -8
 Jim, they are nice cars and have seen them in person, along with the needed F40Cs. but they weren't NJ cars. so don't really need any. got any pics of them being pulled by Steam you could post ? have seen a few in BRHS Bulletins over the years. the cars started arriving during 1950. Spikre 
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Post by theengineshed on Oct 13, 2015 14:12:19 GMT -8
Just bought a six car set of PS 85' bi-level Rock cars from Walthers, $28 a pop. Blow out, I guess all the other RI fans that wanted them already have them. I didn't realize the Rock only had ten!
Truthfully, I'd have preferred the Bud cars, since they came earlier and I prefer them to the red and yellow smooth sides.
Be interesting to know how many PS cars Walthers made, they have been out for some time, either they weren't the greatest sellers, or I waited long enough, seems like they have been out for quite some time though, maybe 10 years?
Would not expect Walthers to jump in again until they unload all their PS bi-levels.
That said, I don't know that I'd purchase more than three Buds, at new car prices...
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Post by rockisland652 on Oct 13, 2015 14:56:27 GMT -8
Right now. Need good ones.
The extruded cars are ancient, crude tooling.
Three original owners, two subsequent owners, put in service in 1955, 1961, 1965, 1974, 1978,...still in service in 2015.
An ICON of Chicago railroading.
Tons of Metra F40 models, and even MP36s already out there with nothing legitimate to pull and shove.
Bring them on.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 13, 2015 17:56:27 GMT -8
I voted for four, but there's also gotta be a really nice BN E unit to pull them. "Nice", as in accurate.
Ed
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Post by rockfan on Oct 13, 2015 21:04:02 GMT -8
Rock Island had five smooth sided coaches and five smooth sided cab cars.
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Post by rockisland652 on Oct 13, 2015 21:23:22 GMT -8
Last week, I rode a 1974 Milw car, the 407, on the way home. I could make out the old number in the stainless steel.
It was gloriously unrebuilt, red upholstery and all.
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Post by GP40P-2 on Oct 13, 2015 21:39:30 GMT -8
I voted for zero as I have absolutely no need for them modeling northern California. However, this is a car that NEEDS to be done, as it is iconic, well known, and long lived, and very familiar to those familiar with the Chicago scene, from multiple generations no less. Besides they do look kind of cool. Bring them on!!
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Post by drolsen on Oct 13, 2015 23:01:12 GMT -8
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Post by slowfreight on Oct 14, 2015 4:53:40 GMT -8
In the RTA and Metra eras, these have operated regularly on
-C&NW/UP
-MILW/Soo/IC&E/CP
-RI
-N&W/NS
-ICG/IC/CN
-CSS&SB
-BN/BNSF
-and maybe even WC
They have also been seen on SP in SoCal hauled by Amtrak F40s, long before Metrolink, and to Milwaukee behind Metra E8s on lease to Amtrak. The 1961 variant has been used regularly on the BN since WSMTD ordered a stack of them in the 1970s.
15 railroads that saw these same cars operate, and still no model?
These need to be done right. "Right" means either 100% detailed, or make it possible for me to add the 20% of detail the mfr leaves off. It also means releasing them in RTA paint, without that stupid "Metra" property tag that both Walthers and Kato screwed up. And for some folks, offering the two different Metra schemes (one with "Metropolitan Rail" spelled out).
The newer cars aren't strictly Nippon Sharyo, however. Some are Morrison-Knudsen, some are Nippon Sharyo, and some are Amerail. The windows vary somewhat. The most consistent design is still the 1961-era Budd bilevel.
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Post by stevewagner on Oct 14, 2015 5:09:41 GMT -8
Slightly off subject, but I can't resist. If I'm remembering right, one of the first railroads to use double-deck coaches in Chicagoland, in the late 1950's or early 1960's, was the Chicago & North Western when Ben Heineman ran it. The C&NW chose to acquire smooth sided cars, paint them yellow and green, and wash them frequently, which in my opinion made them much more attractive than the single-level stainless steel "Silverliners" that the Pennsy and the Reading had begun to use in the Philadelphia area -- and apparently never washed!
Evidently I wasn't the only one with that opinion. On one occasion in the 1960's or 1970's I went with a friend to visit the late Bill Schopp of Trenton, NJ (a longtime major contributor to Railroad Model Craftsman, as "the Layout Doctor" who designed old-style, "bowl of spaghetti" track plans and as one of the most noted converters of brass locos to match other real ones). His layout looked like one of his track plans. The main commuter equipment was a bunch of C&NW double-deckers built from kits produced by Holgate & Reynolds -- lettered for the Reading. He thought they looked good, and so did I!
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chitownjeff
Junior Member
I'm here to chew bubblegum and kick ass and I'm all out of bubblegum
Posts: 67
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Post by chitownjeff on Oct 14, 2015 6:23:16 GMT -8
I've been waiting a long time for the fluted side cars, Id be up for about four of the Milwaukee version (smaller window version) rather than the Metra (Nippon Sharyo)version. The Rock also had a few fluted side cars which if I remember correctly I was told by Metra conductor friend were pretty much clones of the Milwaukee, he
said the spotting difference was the grabs on the sides of cars...Milwaukee's were angled up and down (see picture above) and Rock's were straight.
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Post by onequiknova on Oct 14, 2015 15:55:23 GMT -8
Hell, I'd be happy with a decent brass car sides kit of the MLW/RI cars. The fine fluting would look OK in etched form, IMO. Of the three kits available, the ancient extruded aluminum kits are probably still the best looking, and that's not saying much.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 16:04:56 GMT -8
I've been waiting a long time for the fluted side cars, Id be up for about four of the Milwaukee version (smaller window version) rather than the Metra (Nippon Sharyo)version. The Rock also had a few fluted side cars which if I remember correctly I was told by Metra conductor friend were pretty much clones of the Milwaukee, he said the spotting difference was the grabs on the sides of cars...Milwaukee's were angled up and down (see picture above) and Rock's were straight. The Milwaukee's got their Budd's in 61 while the Rock Island got theirs in 64, a few years apart. But they were carbon copies of each other despite the 3 year difference. As built you could not tell the difference between them except for the RR name and the fact that the Rock Island's had small hazzard stripes on the bottom front of their cab car ends, while the Milwaukee's did not have anything. And unless they were changed, the end car side grabs were the same on both roads-up/down. Both roads even got 3 chime air horns. The letterboards are even the same length. They both have ladders going up to the engineer and fireman window on the front of the cab cars. Now after RTA took over, more Budds were ordered by RTA, and they were somewhat identicle to the original Budds except that there was no letterboard above the center doors. I'm sure that there were other differences, but I didn't know that they had gotten more till a friend had told me at a later time. And unless you know the car numbers, you cant tell the Rock's from the Milwaukee's today. And you can still tell the Rock/Milwaukee cars from the RTA cars, just look for where the letterboard used to be above the center doors. A series of dots mark where they were mounted from the center of the second window on each side of the center doors. And yes, I'll take a half dozen or so because they are sorely needed. |
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Post by theengineshed on Oct 14, 2015 16:19:07 GMT -8
Rock Island had five smooth sided coaches and five smooth sided cab cars. I wasn't able to find more than a three car set of the smooth sides in prototype photos, before I ordered my six cars from Walthers, a cab and five coaches. So it looks like I'm the proud owner of a complete set of the Rock's smooth sided coaches. Funny thing was I found this photo on-line, two six car sets. LOL, I don't believe he got the memo either about their only being 10 cars total on the RI. That's OK, my six car set will still look impressive trundling about the club layout, which isn't set anywhere close to Chicago anyway...  So who delivered the PS cars first, Walthers or Kato? I'm amazed that whomever came second, didn't produce the Bud cars instead. Seems like another case of senseless duplication. |
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Post by onequiknova on Oct 14, 2015 17:41:29 GMT -8
Walthers brought the PS cars out first by a few years if I recall. Not sure what Kato was thinking duplicating such a niche car. Even if they did do them better.
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Post by rockisland652 on Oct 14, 2015 19:37:02 GMT -8
Yessir. Walthers was first. We were glad to get them too. Later on, we learned that the RI Pullman cars had different windows from the CNW cars.
Then came the Kato cars. They blew away the Walthers cars. Lovely. Two models with a limited market competing against each other. Kato would have been far better served by building the Budds, and so would modelers.
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Post by nightmare0331 on Oct 15, 2015 10:57:43 GMT -8
Yessir. Walthers was first. We were glad to get them too. Later on, we learned that the RI Pullman cars had different windows from the CNW cars. Then came the Kato cars. They blew away the Walthers cars. Lovely. Two models with a limited market competing against each other. Kato would have been far better served by building the Budds, and so would modelers. I just dug through a walthers catalog to figure out their release date (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong)... They were listed as 'new' in 2003, and I remember they came out right before Trainfest (Lombard Hobbies was selling cases of those things to people), so I'm thinking late 2003 was their physical release date. Kato's first bilevels shipped in May of 2005. My *guess* is that Kato probably had it in the pipeline already but it experienced delays and setbacks but the wheels were already in motion. I'll have to ask Kato's former R&D guy who did them when I see him at Trainfest. Hindsight is always 20/20. 'someone should have done this car' 'someone should have done that car' but at the time it may not have been so simple or clear. Enjoy! Kelley. |
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Post by rockfan on Oct 15, 2015 11:21:33 GMT -8
So to get back to the question of how many would you buy. 1-2 cab cars and 6-10 coaches.
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Post by peoriaman on Oct 15, 2015 12:15:11 GMT -8
The Katos were especially nice because for C&NW they did the St. Louis Car Co. early cars (or whoever they were) with the different windows. They featured the prominent window gaskets on those cars which really set them apart from the Pullmans. They would have been nice anyway, but the windows really made them a screamer. Unfortunately I missed buying any and always hoped for a re-run.
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Post by rockisland652 on Oct 15, 2015 12:47:35 GMT -8
I would buy just about the whole 1964 fleet.
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Post by onequiknova on Oct 15, 2015 15:02:12 GMT -8
Yessir. Walthers was first. We were glad to get them too. Later on, we learned that the RI Pullman cars had different windows from the CNW cars. Then came the Kato cars. They blew away the Walthers cars. Lovely. Two models with a limited market competing against each other. Kato would have been far better served by building the Budds, and so would modelers. I just dug through a walthers catalog to figure out their release date (I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong)... They were listed as 'new' in 2003, and I remember they came out right before Trainfest (Lombard Hobbies was selling cases of those things to people), so I'm thinking late 2003 was their physical release date. Kato's first bilevels shipped in May of 2005. My *guess* is that Kato probably had it in the pipeline already but it experienced delays and setbacks but the wheels were already in motion. I'll have to ask Kato's former R&D guy who did them when I see him at Trainfest. Hindsight is always 20/20. 'someone should have done this car' 'someone should have done that car' but at the time it may not have been so simple or clear. Enjoy! Kelley. For some reason, I thought they came out farther apart than that. You're likely right that Kato was too far along to shelve the project. Have any idea how well Kato did with them? Good enough to maybe do other commuter cars in HO? |
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Post by dhs12001 on Oct 15, 2015 15:43:11 GMT -8
I would buy just about the whole 1964 fleet. Wow Tom, that's some serious money. I said 5-6 cars and though that was excessive. Dave |
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Post by rockisland652 on Oct 15, 2015 19:23:20 GMT -8
I would buy just about the whole 1964 fleet. Wow Tom, that's some serious money. I said 5-6 cars and though that was excessive. Dave Serious money? Only in 1:1 scale... |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2015 19:48:13 GMT -8
Scale Trains first passenger car??? Why not? Nobody else wants to do them. They would definitely make money on them. CB&Q would be a little more extensive. As built, 70's, 80's & later.
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Post by rockisland652 on Oct 16, 2015 4:59:35 GMT -8
The Q cars would limit their utility. The later, smaller fluted version would cross over to all Metra lines in Chicago, plus Amtrak and the South Shore.
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Post by rockisland652 on Oct 16, 2015 5:08:06 GMT -8
Ok. This is new.
Out on Facebook, Norfolk Southern posted a story and two photos showing borrowed Burlington bilevels used on a 1966 excursion from Fort Wayne to Detroit.
One of the photos shows the train unloading in the coach yard.
These cars got around!
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