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Post by roadkill on Nov 14, 2015 15:38:23 GMT -8
Well sum b***h... something I hoped for happened. I'm good with this... VERY good!~ Thanks, Dave!!!
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Post by roadkill on Nov 14, 2015 15:46:45 GMT -8
Back in 1987 it was the only game in town and the alternative was doing a kitbash of the Gloor-craft craftsman single-bay cars (and 2 of those would have set you back $20+ for just the kits). The Walthers car was done when the molded on details were the standard and getting correct paint on a correct body was rare. It was an absolute Godsend to "modern" modelers of the 1980s and they flew off the shelves even as kits. The cars sold VERY WELL for more than a decade... Walthers produced THOUSANDS of them, even selling out almost immediately on the GACX 12-packs that they did (back when the 12-packs were about $60 street price). Within the first 5 years of their 4180cf Airslide production Walthers offered 26 correct schemes on the car - and only 2 of the Tangent first run duplicate those earliest Walthers offerings. So Tangent has a boatload of other schemes they can eventually do (and I can see that as a reason why they decided to do the 4180cf instead of a later version). You forgot one 4180 cu. ft. Airslide kit (intentionally  ?)... the Roller Bearing Models kit. The sides and roof were cast from fibreglas resin (and brittle as hell) and the bays from lead. If (and I do mean IF) one was able to assemble one it weighed daround a half pound! I attempted to build one many, many years ago, go so pissed at it that I threw in to the concrete basement floor. No way were all of the king's horsemen gonna put THAT turd back together... |
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Post by buffalobill on Nov 14, 2015 15:47:19 GMT -8
Curt, most of the cars built for railroad service, were the 4180 cubic foot version. So I am sure that drove Dave's decision to do that version, rather than the mid sized version. Maybe we get lucky and he does that one later as a follow up. As to your comment about their current scarcity. These are rapidly aging cars. Most of the railroad operated cars were built by the mid to late 1970's. They are at or are approaching 40 years of age, and there were not many built by Trinity after GATX closed the East Chicago shop in 1985 when they quit manufacturing. So essentially all are 30 years of age or older. Some of the earliest cars, early 1960's, have already timed out. By the 1980's there were a number of alternatives on the market, so it was not the dominant car in the finely divided commodity market, as it was prior to that.
Plus there is the wonderful high maintenance membrane to think about. The later PD versions do not have those cost issues.
Up north we see a few outside of those in buffer service, but they are not as common as as they used to be. The General Mills plant in town used to have twenty or thirty on the storage tracks along Ganson Street, now its the Trinity, Thrall, ACF-ARI or other larger capacity PD cars.
The Walthers car wasn't a bad model 30 years ago, but it is long past its prime. Bring em on Dave.
Bill
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Post by lyonwonder on Nov 14, 2015 16:14:27 GMT -8
So how many class 1s had 4180 airslides, excluding private owners and GACX lease cars? I know that BN (and it's predecessors CB&Q, GN and NP) and ATSF had this type of airslide on their rosters. I also assume BN had newer production 4180s that were built after the merger too.
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Post by tom on Nov 14, 2015 16:59:59 GMT -8
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Post by riogrande on Nov 14, 2015 17:08:44 GMT -8
There are definitely lots paint schemes for Tangent to offer on the airslides. I know green BN, gray SP and SSW would be nice, as well as orange and gray Rio Grande, and many others I'm sure.
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Nov 14, 2015 17:18:36 GMT -8
You can add Missouri Pacific and Rock Island to owners of the GATC 4180 air slides.
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Post by drolsen on Nov 14, 2015 17:48:56 GMT -8
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Post by elfan on Nov 14, 2015 19:48:39 GMT -8
Being the "only game in town" and "selling out almost immediately" does not magically transform a dog into a decent model. Sure, if you HAD to have one (or more), you'd be sore tempted to bite. Many obviously bit. I wanted a good one. It didn't happen. I waited (perhaps an overstatement). And I am rewarded. Huzzah! Ed Lol...I'm not sure if you said that tounge in cheek or was serious,but whenever someone says something like that,it reminds me of an episode of the Honeymooners (a 1950s era sitcom starring Jackie Gleason and Art Carney,for those who are too young to remember),where Alice asks Ralph why they still don't have a tv and he replies he's waiting until 3D tv becomes available! Not buying a 1980s model train because it is of 1980s quality and saying 30 years later you've been rewarded by waiting is the same as not buying a tv until the the 1990s when 3D became available,at an exorbitant price albeit! So you left 30 years of enjoyment on the table,but you have finally been rewarded for your wait! One can only imagine the quality that will be available if you wait another 30 years! Lol. I was chided ten years ago for paying $3000 for a plasma tv. Even though I knew the price would eventually come down,and superior technology would become available,I went ahead and bought it. I still have it and have enjoyed it for 10 years! I. Am watching Oregon play Stanford in HD on it as I type this. I bought the Wathers model in the 80s,enjoyed it for the last 30 years,and will buy the Tangent one in the teens of the the new millennium. Tom |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 14, 2015 21:25:08 GMT -8
Tom,
On the Honeymooner's theme, the Walthers Airslide was something that Norton would have salvaged from work. And Trixie would have given him the withering look.
Ed
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Post by jbilbrey on Nov 14, 2015 21:53:14 GMT -8
By the way, the Walthers 4180cf model wasn't bad as a $5 kit when released almost 30 years ago (1986 I think). Those were the first "modern" car Walthers did. I can recall picking up many of the kits (at $3 or $4 each) in the late 1980s when a shop in Fredericksburg, VA closed. Later at $10 RTR street price the Walthers car wasn't that bad of a deal, but the current $27.98 MSRP is absurd IMHO. The Tangent car price (at $40-45, even for street price) puts it in a category where the only reaction can be "it should be a lot better". It will be, but there will still be some who would prefer 2 or 3 of the old Walthers RTR (or 4-6 of the kits) instead of one Tangent. I think I built mine in '89 or '90 after seeing a prototype in Nashville still lettered for L&N. It was one of the first cars that I decaled [using a Herald King decal set IIRC], and the model is still around. I "abandoned" it at my parents' house after I moved out following college and stuff. This last Wednesday, I noticed my father still had it around when we were running trains at a module layout setup. I never got another in L&N or any of the other roadnames. This is even in spite of the L&N Historical Society running a limited issue run of them. There were just too many areas that needed to be updated (new roofwalk, carving off all the grabs, the simplified brake detail, etc.). However, I just noticed at least one area where Tangent has improved on the Walthers car - capturing the three versions of the prototype. Another possible use for the undec. kits [providing that they are the right versions] are the "kitbashes" that NS performed in using them as the basis for C&D gondolas. James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN |
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Post by curtmc on Nov 14, 2015 23:22:51 GMT -8
Railroads that had the 4180cf airslides? LOL...
Well... at least: B&O, C&O, WM (so add Chessie for each then CSX), L&N (to Family Lines then SBD and CSX), N&W, Southern (plus the early '80s Claytor font repaints, then NS with both NW and SOU marks), Conrail (ex-GACX IIRC), GM&O, IC (then ICG then back to IC then CN), GT, GN (2 colors), CB&Q, NP, BN (3+ schemes), ATSF (2+ schemes then BNSF at least 2 schemes), SP, SSW, MP (2 schemes), GVSR(GW), CNW (4+ schemes), DRGW (2+ schemes), UP (3+ schemes), RI (3+ schemes), Milwaukee (4+ schemes), SOO (2+ schemes)... oh, and I can't forget B&M (2 schemes)...
So Tangent could do a couple runs per year over the next decade and still probably have a few to go - not counting all the private owners...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2015 0:18:31 GMT -8
Hello,
You forgot MKT, WP, KCS.
Pierre
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Post by stottman on Nov 15, 2015 2:24:14 GMT -8
Many were redone as Golden West Service as well.
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Post by atsfan on Nov 15, 2015 5:58:02 GMT -8
Railroads that had the 4180cf airslides? LOL... Well... at least: B&O, C&O, WM (so add Chessie for each then CSX), L&N (to Family Lines then SBD and CSX), N&W, Southern (plus the early '80s Claytor font repaints, then NS with both NW and SOU marks), Conrail (ex-GACX IIRC), GM&O, IC (then ICG then back to IC then CN), GT, GN (2 colors), CB&Q, NP, BN (3+ schemes), ATSF (2+ schemes then BNSF at least 2 schemes), SP, SSW, MP (2 schemes), GVSR(GW), CNW (4+ schemes), DRGW (2+ schemes), UP (3+ schemes), RI (3+ schemes), Milwaukee (4+ schemes), SOO (2+ schemes)... oh, and I can't forget B&M (2 schemes)... So Tangent could do a couple runs per year over the next decade and still probably have a few to go - not counting all the private owners... Precisely why Tangent is a very smart company. They make franchise cars and can reuse the tooling. |
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Post by riogrande on Nov 15, 2015 6:12:25 GMT -8
Tangent has really up'd it's game in the past year or so and offering a lot of nice rolling stock. I can't keep up with it at all but what else is new! =P
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Post by peoriaman on Nov 15, 2015 6:19:25 GMT -8
By the way, the Walthers 4180cf model wasn't bad as a $5 kit when released almost 30 years ago (1986 I think). When they came out, I wouldn't have taken one if you GAVE me a dollar to take it. It was bad then. It still is. Because the Athearn blue box and Roundhouse products that dominated the hobby in 1986 were so much better? |
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Post by riogrande on Nov 15, 2015 7:15:22 GMT -8
Obviously there is no comparison with Tangent high detail cars what with the Walther's kits having molded on grab irons and thicker bottom pipe detail, etc. But for me the overall body looks good and since the piping is underneath, it isn't as noticeable.
I'll just have to agree to disagree with the assessment that the Walther's Airslides were/are bad. They (SP/BN/SSW/D&RGW) were typical in D&RGW trains of the 1970's, look decent and so they were/are, to me, a must have. Will I replace the cars I have when Tangent offers "like" versions in BN, SP, SSW, and D&RGW? If I can afford to I probably will - but my fleet, like most is a work in progress - improving rolling stock as better things come along etc. But doing that requires lots of money, which is the reality many of us still face - or lack there-of; I'm tapped out for the next few months with budget earmarked for stuff already in the pipeline. Such is life. Of course for most of us, the hobby involves some level of compromise - not all can go "Cadillac" with the entire fleet.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 15, 2015 9:24:11 GMT -8
Because the Athearn blue box and Roundhouse products that dominated the hobby in 1986 were so much better?  Well, yeah. It seemed to me that the die cutter took a special joy in making the various grabs as huge as possible. And, no, the shot above isn't an N scale car. At least, not according to MB Klein. Ed |
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 9:38:32 GMT -8
Hello, You forgot MKT, WP, KCS. Pierre Thanks... I expected I would miss a few at 2 AM.  MKT (3+ schemes including BKTY) WP (2+ schemes including WP/UP) KCS? (I thought they might have had them but could not find any photos to confirm) Another one I didn't think of at the time was SLSF/Frisco (2+ schemes) Golden West I had included in my listing as GVSR(GW)... |
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 9:45:52 GMT -8
Back in 1986 most people considered a freight car looked good as it was viewed from about 3 or 4 feet away (not in a magnified HD photo triple the actual size)... If a car was good enough for the V&O or Ohio Southern it was good enough for most consumers. Most people and manufacturers realized that most people viewing model trains were not going to be 6" away from the cars, and manufacturers realized that natural shadowing effects would make the molded details look similar to separate grabs froma few feet (and be much more economical for both them and the consumer). This is how the cars were advertised back then...  (notice the brown fully sprung trucks that were only included in first runs of the cars before Walthers realized the consumer wanted a less detailed molded black truck piece that didn't have to be assembled) A few year later this is how they were shown...  then in RTR form...  Those very, very, very few who would judge a car from only a few inches away (or in oversized photos) back then were considered "detail freaks" and likely less than 0.5% of the hobby... FYI. Businesses don't usually cater to the 1% except Porsche, Lamborghini, etc... and in model trains in the late 1980s and early 1990s the model train companies that aimed for the 1% "detail freaks" were the brass importers (and you can see where that got them in 25 years) |
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Post by riogrande on Nov 15, 2015 10:34:10 GMT -8
Looking at the photos, the model's apparent biggest offences are typical of that day and many models since then such as Accurail and others. The roof walk and molded on grab irons. I have molded on grab irons on many of my freight cars still and don't twist my face when I look at them. As our old buddy Mellow Mike used to demonstrate, some judicious weathering and they can look pretty good and make the molded on details blend in. The roof walk can be replaced with an etched metal part for those who are bothered by it - many Atlas cars such as the cylindrical hoppers have roof walks not much better. At least 3 of the kits I bought came with the brown spring trucks; I discarded them long ago and installed rigid trucks and metal wheels.
Many on the forums have taken some models with molded on grab irons and shaved them off and replaced them with metal equivelents as we've seen in photo fun. The basic body of the Walthers Airslide looks decent to my eye. I think most of us don't have the budget to have top quality models for every model we own - I certainly don't. That said, I like Tangent, ExactRail, Genesis, Moloco etc. and try to afford as many as I can manage and where appropriate. Many are on my shopping list as I can free up funds little by little. As always YMMV
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 10:57:04 GMT -8
Comparing the two 4180cf Airslides: Walthers vs Tangent  At that distance and typical perspective can you see a $30 price difference ($15 MSRP in 2007* vs $45 MSRP today)? Some can. My bet is that many/most can't. * (and still commonly available for that today) |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2015 11:42:23 GMT -8
I guess it depends on what each wants...I won't have a huge fleet of these...but 4-8 will be on the roster. I'll go the Tangent way.
If one needed 20+...I guess you could roll with Walthers...but those cars are $30 MSRP now...versus the $5 I used to pay at train shows...
Now...for coal hoppers...different story...I went big and bought (100 +) ExactRail quads...and am still adding to the fleet...along with 12 Tangent 2750s...and some of their UP quads back from 2011...but those cars are essential to my ops. So I budgeted for them...in fact most of my fleet is ExactRail...and Tangent...with a few better Athearn RTR and atlas tank cars...I can see the difference...to each their own...
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 15, 2015 11:46:03 GMT -8
I do like to get a lot closer than 3 feet from my models. Sounds like "most people" don't.
It's a wonder that Tangent can stay in business, what with "most people" never getting close enough to see the difference.
On the plus side, Intermountain is reviving the old LBF line, at least in part. I dunno, maybe 3 feet is STILL too close for those.
Ed
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Post by peoriaman on Nov 15, 2015 11:48:30 GMT -8
Well, yeah. It seemed to me that the die cutter took a special joy in making the various grabs as huge as possible. And, no, the shot above isn't an N scale car. At least, not according to MB Klein. Reminds me a lot of these, which you probably didn't buy any of either...  |
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Post by roadkill on Nov 15, 2015 11:49:03 GMT -8
I do like to get a lot closer than 3 feet from my models. Sounds like "most people" don't. It's a wonder that Tangent can stay in business, what with "most people" never getting close enough to see the difference. On the plus side, Intermountain is reviving the old LBF line, at least in part. I dunno, maybe 3 feet is STILL too close for those. Ed Twenty feet's too close for an LBF model... |
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 12:09:53 GMT -8
BULL HOCKEY!!!
How about the LBF Trinity 5161? The angles, details, and couplers on it were better then the Genesis version of same car.
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 12:14:11 GMT -8
Ahhh... The Athearn Railbox...
The past sales of that one car type alone - since its 1970s debut with all its warts - probably funded half the Athearn projects in the next decade, and probably has sold more in its history of many runs (most of which were painted and unlettered) than Tangent, ExactRail, and BLMA totals of all cars combined.
Today people are paying for the high quality paint job Athearn does on them... Because to some the paint job means as much or more than the details.
PS. That car was originally less than the cost of two Big Macs...
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Post by roadkill on Nov 15, 2015 12:14:39 GMT -8
Don't know a damn thing about the LBF Trinity covered hopper as it's far too modern for me.
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?)... the Roller Bearing Models kit. The sides and roof were cast from fibreglas resin (and brittle as hell) and the bays from lead. If (and I do mean IF) one was able to assemble one it weighed daround a half pound! I attempted to build one many, many years ago, go so pissed at it that I threw in to the concrete basement floor. No way were all of the king's horsemen gonna put THAT turd back together...
