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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 15, 2015 12:26:46 GMT -8
The LBF 5161 certainly was a big step up for LBF. Of course, the previous step was just a bit below ground level.
But it did prove Curt's point. As soon as they made something halfway decent, they went out of business. If they'd only stayed with their previous quality level, it's safe to assume that "most people" would have continued to buy their products. I guess that shows them!
Ed
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 12:42:31 GMT -8
No LBF only really developed two cars... The first was the Aeroflo and the second was the Trinity 5161 covered hopper. All the rest had their roots in E&C - a different company until LBF bought the E&C tooling at auction. LBF's issues were not the quality or accuracy of its tooling.
As for E&C... To this day they (and the LBF runs to follow) are still the only ones who got all 4 corners correct on the standard western style JA bethgon.
PS. By the way, speaking of LBF... That direct way of sales they started off with... well perhaps they were a little ahead of the curve on that because it seems to be working for several companies today. And the concept of offering both a base kit and a RTR version with more factory details?
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Nov 15, 2015 12:58:58 GMT -8
To this day they (and the LBF runs to follow) are still the only ones who got all 4 corners correct on the standard western style JA bethgon. There are prototypes with 2,3 and 4 corner ladders. E&C/LBF just did one variation, even when wrong. I didn't think the Walthers cars were that bad when released,but even before the RTR versions were out, I decided to wait for better ones. I'm glad Tangent is doing them, the improvements are obvious even at a distance.
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 13:05:48 GMT -8
The most common by far, some would say "standard", is the prototype JA car version with ladders at 3 corners and a cross rung at the 4th. All the BN/BNSF JA cars were that way as well as most of the utility owned cars. E&C/LBF is the only one so far to offer that "3-ladder" version that has different car sides. Walthers has both cars sides the same, 1 ladder each side (and I've never seen a prototype like that) and the Athearn is actually closer to a later 4520cf car (wider tub) with ladders at all 4 corners - that I think was limited to Com Ed cars at the time Athearn made the initial release. (And I can say that as an owner of a few hundred of the Athearn cars... most of which have high level of detailing but are not 100% correct)
One of the biggest fallacies in this hobby in 2015 are those who see a high level of detailing and equate that with the detailing being accurate. (Note, Tangent gets it right most of the time, others... well...)
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Post by riogrande on Nov 15, 2015 13:30:26 GMT -8
Ed, don't get me wrong. I'd like all my fleet to be Tangent, ExactRail and Genesis. I can't afford large quantities of them, especially for the likes of coal trains - especially while I have a daughter in college. For ya'll who have lots of disposable income, as my wife would say, help ya'self! Go Cadillac all the way. As I can manage I will continue to add Tangent, Moloco and more Exactrail, etc. I expect when Tangent does add the road names I prefer, I'll be trying to budget them in. I'm wanting to add a few of the Tangent gondola's too. A fleet is a work in progress!
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Nov 15, 2015 13:52:24 GMT -8
The most common by far, some would say "standard", is the prototype JA car version with ladders at 3 corners and a cross rung at the 4th. All the BN/BNSF JA cars were that way as well as most of the utility owned cars. E&C/LBF is the only one so far to offer that "3-ladder" version that has different car sides. Walthers has both cars sides the same, 1 ladder each side (and I've never seen a prototype like that) and the Athearn is actually closer to a later 4520cf car (wider tub) with ladders at all 4 corners - that I think was limited to Com Ed cars at the time Athearn made the initial release. You should spend more time trackside. All 3 variations are easily found, sometime in the same train. The 3 corner ladders may be the most common, but are not "standard", and are wrong for some cars. Highly detailed isn't always more accurate, but molded details are always wrong, and much easier to spot on a model, even at a distance, than the wrong number or location of a detail.
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 14:08:15 GMT -8
Incorrect!!!
Molded details are usually not visible in a direct side view of a car (in normal filtered lighting) at a viewing distance of more than a few feet... The human brain is easily tricked by the depth perception and shadowing in such situations. And some weathering on molded details can make then even less apparent even at closer viewing range.
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 14:12:35 GMT -8
LOL... Trackside you can usually only see one side of the car so you can't tell how many corner ladders one has... It is the worst place to make judgement unless the train is very slow moving and you have an angled view through the ends.
It is better spending time looking at online photo galleries or car plans sets where you can see photos (or layout) of both sides of an individual car. Back when Athearn introduced their bethgon cars in 5-packs I spent 20+ hours looking at thousands of online photos finding very few that actually had 4 ladders.
Bridge2nowhere, here is your challenge... Find and link online photos of both sides of a BN JA 4400cf bethgon (or any other JA 4400cf bethgon) showing that one car to have ladders at all 4 corners. I think you'll find most that have that odd 4-ladder configuration to be different and later cars than the JA 4400cf car the Athearn car was announced to be. It is more common on the FCA built cars but those are a larger and later prototype.
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Nov 15, 2015 14:41:05 GMT -8
To quote you Curt, BULL HOCKEY.
First, molded details are easy to spot from any angle. Never mind that we look at our models from all kinds of angles. You pictures of the Walthers vs. Tangent cars clearly show this. It also doesn't require detailed knowledge or a photo of the prototype to see, something a misplaced grab or lettering does.
Second, to think a photo showing one an angle on a car is better than real world observation is ridiculous. You can easily see all 4 corners as the car rolls by, something you can't do with a photo.
As for your original-unedited "challenge", the BN cars have 3 ladders, so no photos. Doesn't change the fact that many other JA coalporters don't.
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 14:43:02 GMT -8
We are waiting for you to list them...
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Post by edwardsutorik on Nov 15, 2015 14:44:35 GMT -8
"We", Lone Ranger?
Ed
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 14:48:16 GMT -8
I never said ONE photo... You can tell a lot more by having multiple photos of BOTH sides of a car than you can see by being trackside and seeing only one side of a car when it rolls by.
By the way, I know that there are 4-ladder aluminum coal gondolas out there. I know of some 4520cf JA cars, and some later cars built by FCA. The Atlas Trainman model is a pretty accurate representation of the FCA cars, but I doubt if you find it acceptable because you are one of the minority that thinks any car with molded details is worthless.
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 14:50:43 GMT -8
Yes, me and at least one other person I know who would like to see photos of 4-ladder JA 4400cf bethgons... and probably a few others reading the thread as well. Probably not you though, as you are likely too old to care...
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Nov 15, 2015 14:53:13 GMT -8
I never said ONE photo... You can tell a lot more by having multiple photos of BOTH sides of a car than you can see by being trackside and seeing only one side of a car when it rolls by. This assumes you have photos of both sides of the car, which isn't that common given that most photos are from the same side of the train. Again ,it is very easy to see all 4 corners trackside.
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Nov 15, 2015 14:56:29 GMT -8
Yes, me and at least one other person I know who would like to see photos of 4-ladder JA 4400cf bethgons... and probably a few others reading the thread as well. Probably not you though, as you are likely too old to care... You started out with "western JA coalporter", now it's changed to 4400cf bethgon. What will you change it to next?
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Post by fr8kar on Nov 15, 2015 14:58:05 GMT -8
How does a thread celebrating the release of another great model from Tangent devolve into this? Molded details on coal gondolas, the number and style of ladders and yet another, "well, we're waiting!" challenge are off topic for this thread. For the love of Pete, start a thread on that topic if that's what you want to discuss. I'll happily ignore it and continue to check this one for information relevant to Tangent and Airslides.
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 14:58:29 GMT -8
Photo archives including rrpicturearchives.com can be used to see both sides of cars within a bethgon car series (and often there are photos of both sides of the same car). I'm surprised you are not aware of that. No further change necessary as the initial change was to better define the prototype we were comparing to the supposed model of it. Perhaps I should have specifically listed off every one of the first 10 or 15 roadnames they offered but BN was the prime example of most they announced. How does a thread celebrating the release of another great model from Tangent devolve into this? Molded details on coal gondolas... It started with the unnecessary bashing of the Walthers model by some because of its age and molded on details. Many feel there is still a place in the hobby for such cars and no need to bash the cars of decades past simply because they do not meet the 2015 standards of the detail fanatics minority.
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 15:01:58 GMT -8
Back on topic... The Tangent GACX 4180cf Airslides cars will be very nice. I'll probably buy 2 or 3 of them, and maybe more if they do Chessie cars in future run.
But unlike some I am not going to totally trash the 29-year old Walthers version simply because it doesn't meet the 2015 standards of a minority of modelers who find molded on detailing to be appalling.
There is still a place for molded on detail and economy freight cars - and the 2 level introduction of the ScaleTrains Trinity 31K crude tank cars show that they believe the same (as the lower priced version was announced to have some molded on detail instead of separately applied).
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Post by fr8kar on Nov 15, 2015 15:47:19 GMT -8
It started with the unnecessary bashing of the Walthers model by some because of its age and molded on details. It was a rhetorical question designed to cause self-reflection and hopefully illuminate the cause of these pointless sidebars that derail otherwise thiughtful and informative discussions.
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2015 18:21:02 GMT -8
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Post by curtmc on Nov 15, 2015 22:49:52 GMT -8
Nice MP Eagle car... But I think Boston & Maine had the most colorful 4180cf airslide. The "Wednesday is Prince Spaghetti Day" car which was used to haul flour to the Prince plant on B&M. Photo found on Google images... it is from YouTube video by nhrrman.
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Post by atsfan on Nov 16, 2015 3:43:28 GMT -8
Some people need to get some sleep. The Tangent car is awesome. Enjoy yourself and live life.
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Post by milgentrains on Nov 16, 2015 5:26:29 GMT -8
Ahhh... The Athearn Railbox... The past sales of that one car type alone - since its 1970s debut with all its warts - probably funded half the Athearn projects in the next decade, and probably has sold more in its history of many runs (most of which were painted and unlettered) than Tangent, ExactRail, and BLMA totals of all cars combined. Today people are paying for the high quality paint job Athearn does on them... Because to some the paint job means as much or more than the details. PS. That car was originally less than the cost of two Big Macs... Lately I've been buying Athearn railboxes and I'm very happy with them. Now I'm going to start looking for the Walthers Airslides. After cataract surgery, the three foot rule applies to me.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Nov 17, 2015 5:05:14 GMT -8
... there will still be some who would prefer 2 or 3 of the old Walthers RTR (or 4-6 of the kits) instead of one Tangent. I hope so; I have 7 or 8 now available at $15 each for anyone who wants them! :-)
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Post by upcsx on Nov 17, 2015 13:17:48 GMT -8
I have a few of the Walthers also will take five dollars a peace.
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Post by curtmc on Dec 4, 2015 21:44:12 GMT -8
My Tangent 4180 airslides arrived on Monday and they are very nice cars. I may post a few photos tomorrow or Sunday.
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