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Post by jlwii2000 on Sept 25, 2016 11:25:06 GMT -8
Criticism has been around since the hobby started, and the current batch of models is a direct result of that. No manufacturer has gone back to generic models because they had their feelings hurt. History has shown that they take comments and use them to make future models better, when it makes sense to do so. It is a gorgeous model. NOBODY has said it's not. It just has a few errors, like any product. Some times the nit picking involves tiny details that may be impossible to tool and keep it in scale. Why would a manufacturer revert back? Simple.. To get rid of the headaches and to end their stress in order to calm their ulcers. I'll tell you square. When I want to know about the model Jame's reviews is where I go and to find any major flaws I come here. Then I will judge the model on my personal modeling acceptance and should the bad outweigh the good based on the information gathered then its a no sale item.. I been around some of these guys for years on the old Atlas and I trust their knowledge and judgment. As a example a model has major flaws this I want to know. I could careless if the bolts is 1/2" instead of being the correct 3/4" or some such item I can't see anyway since its not a glaring issue. Hey now LOL, I catch major flaws most of the time. Recently, I caught no puffing smoke on a BLI locomotive that was supposed to have it. Turned out it was a widespread issue. The rivet counter turbine is under editing now and there were interruptions of sound over the insul frogs. I try to catch everything I can at the fast and furious pace of the review on top of time spent on my job and with my family.
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Post by Brakie on Sept 25, 2016 11:31:16 GMT -8
James,You give a excellent review but,I still like to know about the flaws incase you missed them.
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Post by cf7 on Sept 25, 2016 11:35:02 GMT -8
I do thank cf7 for pointing the issue out, whatever my reservations about the manner in which it was done. I don't get this. In my original post, I was not mean or disrespectful to anyone. I just pointed out one issue that bothered me. That's it. No more. I will not go into a 500 word post to describe all of the good things about an item, just so I can post a little something that bothers me. That would be crazy. There are some long-winded folks on a lot of these boards, but I'm not one of them. At least my Mom always thought that I was nice and polite!
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Post by jlwii2000 on Sept 25, 2016 11:36:11 GMT -8
James,You give a excellent review but,I still like to know about the flaws incase you missed them. I know, I'm just playing around. Trying to lighten up the forum mood I miss all kinds of stuff, it was the reason I first bought a full HD camcorder back when they were the forefront of technology. Thanks for watching and giving my videos a chance.
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Post by Brakie on Sept 25, 2016 11:42:26 GMT -8
Some times the nit picking involves tiny details that may be impossible to tool and keep it in scale. Why would a manufacturer revert back? Simple.. To get rid of the headaches and to end their stress in order to calm their ulcers. I'll tell you square. When I want to know about the model Jame's reviews is where I go and to find any major flaws I come here. Then I will judge the model on my personal modeling acceptance and should the bad outweigh the good based on the information gathered then its a no sale item.. I been around some of these guys for years on the old Atlas and I trust their knowledge and judgment. As a example a model has major flaws this I want to know. I could careless if the bolts is 1/2" instead of being the correct 3/4" or some such item I can't see anyway since its not a glaring issue. Larry, again, when has a manufacturert ever reverted? It hasn't happened yet, and won't now. Manufacturers are smart enough to deal with valid criticism. I'm glad you make your own decisions, but how can you do that with incomplete information? The issues being discussed are a bit more obvious than 1/4", but even so, if you don't care, why does it bother you to know it? The minor flaws to you may be major to someone else, and vis versa. Don't think I said what I overlook doesn't matter to anybody else since I read all the replies. The wrong size rivet heads may matter to some but,not me. Everybody is different. I never said any manufacturer turned back to generic. Will they? Maybe as a second line in order to survive the coming years.
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Sept 25, 2016 11:49:48 GMT -8
Larry, again, when has a manufacturert ever reverted? It hasn't happened yet, and won't now. Manufacturers are smart enough to deal with valid criticism. I'm glad you make your own decisions, but how can you do that with incomplete information? The issues being discussed are a bit more obvious than 1/4", but even so, if you don't care, why does it bother you to know it? The minor flaws to you may be major to someone else, and vis versa. Don't think I said what I overlook doesn't matter to anybody else since I read all the replies. The wrong size rivet heads may matter to some but,not me. Everybody is different. I never said any manufacturer turned back to generic. Will they? Maybe as a second line in order to survive the coming years. Exactly, so why the animosity towards those with different criteria? Reverting as a second line to survive is a lot different than reverting because they don't want criticism.
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Post by canrailfan on Sept 25, 2016 12:05:36 GMT -8
This thread should be hitting Page 6 any comment now...
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Post by jlwii2000 on Sept 25, 2016 12:10:51 GMT -8
This thread should be hitting Page 6 any comment now... Just one last dead horse to beat.... P.S. It's a Halloween decoration for anyone who might be concerned.
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 25, 2016 14:25:38 GMT -8
This thread should be hitting Page 6 any comment now... Just one last dead horse to beat.... P.S. It's a Halloween decoration for anyone who might be concerned. The neck vertebrae are not correct for that type of horse.
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Post by riogrande on Sept 25, 2016 15:22:11 GMT -8
I'm concerned! =P
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2016 17:07:28 GMT -8
I'll ask again, why do you have a problem with factual information about a commercial product being shared? I wonder why some folks feel the only info worth sharing is that which throws a negative light on things... I think the people at Scale Trains (in business to make money) actually appreciate criticism on what could be improved, with zero regard to "tone" or "light". I doubt they lose any sleep over the fact that some people don't consider it necessary to artificially balance their comments by including patronizing niceties. Not everyone is a snowflake. So I won't be accused of committing yet another microagression, here's my microreview: Very nice model overall. Windshield corners aren't right.
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Post by dharris on Sept 25, 2016 17:14:17 GMT -8
I guess the people that this model "bugs the crap" out of will just need to wait for the next company to come along and invest in tooling and producing another version of this engine. Maybe it will meet their level of perfection.
Scale Trains needs yet another line of products:
Operator Rivet Counter Museum Quality Online Internet Forum Microscopic Perfectionist
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Post by 71eagle on Sept 25, 2016 19:56:30 GMT -8
If I may suggest that our friend cf7 check the posted images of the turbine on ScaleTrains.com and or view the actual model. Do they show a near 90 degree corner on the window insert or a curve similar to the prototype? Thanks.
Arlen Wiederstein Audubon,Iowa
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 25, 2016 20:41:11 GMT -8
So if I were to discover that a Walthers 53' well car would not actually hold a 53' box, many of you would prefer not to hear it because that would be too "negative". After all, in many other ways, the model is quite excellent. I have 6, and am quite happy with them. Except for having to deal with that mistake.
Or perhaps it should be compulsory to add all the good things about a model in the same post.
And you would rather not hear that Scaletrains totally left out all detailing behind the screens on the A unit because model railroading should be fun and anyone who points out flaws in a model is clearly a troublemaker. Because in almost every other way, they model is exquisite. Except, of course, that crooked part on the roof. Which you also would like to not hear about.
Here I think I'm off the hook. James said and showed many good things about the Turbine. I see no reason to repeat what he has said. And I will point out that he addressed a couple of negative things himself.
I can only imagine the consternation when a magazine has an article on how to detail the empty space in the A unit. By publishing such an article, the magazine would clearly point out and affirm that ScaleTrains made an oops. Which would be pretty darn "negative".
I think perhaps next time I observe a mistake in a manufacturer's product and wish to tell other folks on the forum, I should have a "trigger warning" so that those of you who feel the need can avert your eyes. You might also consider redacting the potential upcoming article when it appears.
Ed
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Post by mlehman on Sept 25, 2016 21:15:19 GMT -8
SNIP I can only imagine the consternation when a magazine has an article on how to detail the empty space in the A unit. By publishing such an article, the magazine would clearly point out and affirm that ScaleTrains made an oops. Which would be pretty darn "negative". SNIP It does sound funny, but I've already had to explain to one well-meaning person that all that A-unit space is NOT where something was left out. I suppose you could fill it with helium and then that turbine sound would really scream?
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 25, 2016 21:26:27 GMT -8
It does sound funny, but I've already had to explain to one well-meaning person that all that A-unit space is NOT where something was left out. I suppose you could fill it with helium and then that turbine sound would really scream? Mike, I explained in my comment early in this topic about my reasoning for asserting there was in fact "something" in the A-unit space that was left out in the model. You are asserting there is nothing that was left out. If you please, I would appreciate your pointing out my error. Ed
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Post by Judge Doom on Sept 25, 2016 22:10:00 GMT -8
IMHO "constructive criticism" is nothing more then a mask to hide behind while bashing a product, photo or another's model. Some use "constructive criticism" like its a contest to see who can out do each other in knowledge. Ever wonder what would happen if the manufacturers threw their hands up in discuss and said "enough of this happy crap" and return to generic models? Be cheaper to produce and they could lower the price and still make a profit. Why would they do that? The reason is simple because all of their hard work, research, then investing thousands to produce the model and wham! out comes the negative Billies hiding behind "constructive criticism" and finds fault with minute detail that may be impossible to tool. Guys, That Big Blow is the gorgeous. Why would a manufacturer revert back? Simple.. To get rid of the headaches and to end their stress in order to calm their ulcers. Highly flawed logic in an open marketplace such as model railroading. If customers are all demanding highly detailed models and company A, B and C throw in the towel to go make generic ones, that doesn't change customer's demands. Some might settle for the generic offerings, but that leaves the market wide open and eventually another company D, E and/or F is going to come around and fill this demand. A, B and C lose out on all those potential sales and profits, and now have healthy competitors that might come out with their own generic offerings as well as the high-end ones. If you think this can't happen, look no further than the manufacturer this thread is about as an example of a small startup aiming to fill that high-end demand with their Rivet-counter level models such as the Turbines, tank cars and SD40-2's. Despite what minor flaws there may be, Scaletrains has clearly shown they can play in the big leagues up there with their own high-end stuff rivaling Athearn Genesis, Rapido, etc. You won't see GM or Toyota throw in the towel and just make Aveos and Corollas if their Silverados and Lexuses are plagued with problems. No, they'll work to figure out how to solve the problems, rectify them through warranty repairs or replacements, and make improvements to the assembly processes/parts/etc so all future releases don't have those issues. Why? Because Ford and Nissan, and everyone else is chomping on the bit to get any market share up for grabs.
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Post by Brakie on Sept 26, 2016 4:16:28 GMT -8
Judge,One thing for sure we can't compare millions of cars being sold to a few thousand HO engines. The Edsel was a disaster before it rolled off the assembly line and was never made again even though it was thought to be a designed of the future.
Seems to be a open market for generics since Bachmann is still going strong and holding a nice chunk of the market. Scale Trains "Operator Line" is another indication there is a market share waiting to be plucked.. Athearn still has their RTR market with older MDC cars with minor upgrades-the old BB freight cars is still available as RTR. Atlas has their Trainman and Walthers has three different lines of models-there must be a market for the less detailed..
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Post by dharris on Sept 26, 2016 4:45:18 GMT -8
Judge,One thing for sure we can't compare millions of cars being sold to a few thousand HO engines. The Edsel was a disaster before it rolled off the assembly line and was never made again even though it was thought to be a designed of the future. Seems to be a open market for generics since Bachmann is still going strong and holding a nice chunk of the market. Scale Trains "Operator Line" is another indication there is a market share waiting to be plucked.. Athearn still has their RTR market with older MDC cars with minor upgrades-the old BB freight cars is still available as RTR. Atlas has their Trainman and Walthers has three different lines of models-there must be a market for the less detailed.. Add in ScaleTrains itself makes the Operator Line. I wonder what the sales ratio is between it and Museum versions ?
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Post by jaygee on Sept 26, 2016 5:53:29 GMT -8
The Tire Kickers have spoken !
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Post by cf7 on Sept 26, 2016 6:02:24 GMT -8
If I may suggest that our friend cf7 check the posted images of the turbine on ScaleTrains.com and or view the actual model. Do they show a near 90 degree corner on the window insert or a curve similar to the prototype? Thanks. Arlen Wiederstein Audubon,Iowa Arlen - Did you even look at the comparison photos on page one of this thread? That tells you everything you need to know....no need to look elsewhere. I certainly hope everything you purchase, or want to purchase, is up to your standards and that you have zero complaints with anything.
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Post by NS4122 on Sept 26, 2016 6:08:33 GMT -8
dharris said:
Add in ScaleTrains itself makes the Operator Line. I wonder what the sales ratio is between it and Museum versions?
Atsfan,
Try to keep up. There is no comparison to make because there is no "Operator" version of the Turbine, only "Rivet Counter" and "Museum Quality".
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2016 7:06:49 GMT -8
The definitive Big Blow, indeed!!
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Post by mlehman on Sept 26, 2016 7:19:48 GMT -8
It does sound funny, but I've already had to explain to one well-meaning person that all that A-unit space is NOT where something was left out. I suppose you could fill it with helium and then that turbine sound would really scream? Mike, I explained in my comment early in this topic about my reasoning for asserting there was in fact "something" in the A-unit space that was left out in the model. You are asserting there is nothing that was left out. If you please, I would appreciate your pointing out my error. Ed Ed, Sorry, didn't click the link, assumed it was just structural...and that pipe/support post basically is structural, just not part of the carbody. Easy enough to fake in with the help of Evergreen -- maybe. I'd guess that there's a reason it's not there. Is there something to attach the post to at the bottom or is the chassis open there? Unless it was supported underneath, you wouldn't want to attach it to the underside of the fan -- too much leverage on a delicate part. Still about 99% nothing by volume behind the grating, though...and fortunately nowhere near the eye irritation some get about the windshield. Now, this other stuff -- compressor, etc -- are you referring to the diagram posted on page one? That's either an artist's impression or something else, as only very approximate for UP 1-30? If so, I suspect it's mounted on the floor -- and I wonder again if the chassis is open there for some reason (model's driveshaft to rear truck, etc)? There's a similar issue with the Athearn Tunnel Motors, in that the drive to the rear truck is present and shouldn't be -- but you do want both trucks powered...
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Post by wp8thsub on Sept 26, 2016 7:47:44 GMT -8
The definitive Big Blow, indeed!!
Are you referring to the model, or this thread in general?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2016 7:50:48 GMT -8
The thread!!!
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 26, 2016 8:03:58 GMT -8
Mike,
As I have said, MY references are:
A Union Pacific diagram of the locomotive. The drawing of the A unit shows several objects placed in the space between the two big screens on the sides. The drawing notes identify some of these items as "Air Compressors", "Quick Disconnect Couplings" and "Turbine Water Tank". The drawing also shows a drive shaft coming off the end of the diesel engine and what looks like a gearbox placed between the engine and the compressors. That gearbox is directly under the cooling fan (the bottom of which is at the approximate height of the top of the screened opening) and almost certainly drives that fan.
The linked photo shows the bottom of the fan and the immediate surroundings and matches closely with the Union Pacific diagram.
Please post YOUR references for stating that "all that A-unit space is NOT where something was left out."
Ed
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Post by peoriaman on Sept 26, 2016 8:09:19 GMT -8
Whatever happened to that guy who was always pining for the definitive SD40-2? He'd be enjoying this thread, for sure.
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Post by cf7 on Sept 26, 2016 8:09:44 GMT -8
Tom, the good news is I'm about to start on the Smokey Valley GP15 MoPac Phase I that I got from you a few years back. I'm building two, a Phase I and a Phase 2. This years winter projects!
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Post by Brakie on Sept 26, 2016 8:58:27 GMT -8
Atsfan, Try to keep up. There is no comparison to make because there is no "Operator" version of the Turbine, only "Rivet Counter" and "Museum Quality". CSXT,Please try to keep up with the conversation quotes. You quoted something I didn't say. Look closer and our friend D.Harris ask the question.. And if that Atsfan comment was thrown my way you're 100 miles off course nay, you're so far off you're not even on the chart.
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