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Post by sd40dash2 on Dec 27, 2020 15:50:25 GMT -8
I stumbled across this somewhat disturbing discussion that started out as a modelling thread but when questioned by fr8kar, turned out to be more sinister. It also gives a bit of insight into the types of sources for casting masters that can lead to CMR/BDO/PNW products. It seems the thread starter sees no problem with building a master for PNW to use but was correctly called to the carpet by Ryan. I have highlighted the OP's incorrect line of thinking below. dieseldetailer.proboards.com/thread/19433/mlw-m630w-bcol-pnw-resins"I figured if someone didn't have the ability to make one themselves, they could still enjoy having one."
"I just build things I think will be enjoyed by others..."
"Is what it is" |
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Dec 27, 2020 16:07:36 GMT -8
Let’s bring the names of the people behind CMR/BDO/PNW out in to the light so we know who they actually are and I for one will not do business with them and anyone who enables them. Would KV models be on the list too?
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Post by sd40dash2 on Dec 27, 2020 16:57:59 GMT -8
Let’s bring the names of the people behind CMR/BDO/PNW out in to the light so we know who they actually are and I for one will not do business with them and anyone who enables them. Would KV models be on the list too? All good points. As well, their defenders/fanboys and those businesses which support and enable them should also be identified. I have no doubt they'll be along in this thread shortly to defend the practice. You know the types, typically younger, will say they have "never had an issue", maybe a brand new user ID, their best skill seems to be at hiding their actual identity. |
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Post by nsc39d8 on Dec 27, 2020 17:10:54 GMT -8
So this is the thread I alluded to in another place on the forum. One of those reponses in that thread was from me as well. I thought real hard when PNW offered the NS RP-E4D with a chassis but decided against it in the end. I did some searching and found the thread from Rapido on MRR: cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/252606.aspx?page=1 About half way down is a FB page link for BDO, I will tell you it now leads to PNW's FB page: www.facebook.com/Big-Dawg-Originals-824079360978438/?fref=photoAlso take a look at the C415 thread below the M630 thread both titled for PNW to cast. Yes I agree we need to ID everyone. I am not sure about KV models yet but I am leaning hard against supporting them as well. If you read down the PNW FB page apparently he has sent some shells to be cast as well. |
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Post by 12bridge on Dec 27, 2020 17:31:55 GMT -8
It kind of baffles me that this guy has not been taken down yet by a big company. I would be beyond pissed off to find any of my 3D parts being knocked off in resin by somebody. This is going to be a topic that is going to get more traction as more and more small companies are popping up in the 3D world. Although, there are only a handful of people doing resin anymore...but they are well known.. pirates..
PNW certainly has his share of followers and fanboys. I was rather disappointed when KV started doing stuff for him, including the SW7, U34CH and some other stuff.
I wonder if Lee English knows his shell is about to get knocked off..
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Post by slowfreight on Dec 27, 2020 19:35:36 GMT -8
Yeah. No. I was there.
My frustration was that the author justified his position on the basis that he didn't make money and that other, less-skilled modelers might want one. He wouldn't hear us point out that he undermined others' work to get there.
But in many ways, PNWR is the enabler here, not giving any pause before pirating that 3D-printed cab.
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Post by Christian on Dec 28, 2020 1:31:59 GMT -8
It kind of baffles me that this guy has not been taken down yet by a big company. Elsewhere Jason Shron has said that it is too expensive for his Canadian company to gain access to USA courts to defend intellectual property. As a trained artist he is well aware of the theft of ideas. Atlas isn't litigious. Athearn? Who knows week to week what Horizon will do. I'd guess that if an MTH shell was being used as a master for someone else to profit that Mike would have his handy squad of lawyers jump on the case. Otherwise, most of the other model railroad companies are rather small, and going to a court is more expensive than the loss of profit. Just guessing - I'd imagine that there isn't a lot of money being made off these resin shells. Not many people are building locomotive models nowadays. Which brings me to Scott Lupia's KV Models and those etched parts supporting PNW resin shells which steal the work of other people. Before I know about his involvement with these thefts, I bought some parts from him to upgrade my Walthers B&O SD50. That project was going to be my next Atlas Rescue build. Not any longer. I'll do the work and use the parts. But I'm not going to promote the KV parts by doing photo postings. |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Dec 28, 2020 5:43:49 GMT -8
Which brings me to Scott Lupia's KV Models and those etched parts supporting PNW resin shells which steal the work of other people. Before I know about his involvement with these thefts, I bought some parts from him to upgrade my Walthers B&O SD50. That project was going to be my next Atlas Rescue build. Not any longer. I'll do the work and use the parts. But I'm not going to promote the KV parts by doing photo postings. Thank you for showing integrity and doing the right thing. I too was disappointed to learn that KV Models was supporting the PNW scam but now I won't support them either. This has nothing to do with one product line or another but about doing the right thing and not enabling the supporters. Another person we should also think about is the original 3D artist who supplied the W cab discussed in the original thread. That creator has a Shapeways storefront and may be offended to learn that his work is being ripped off by PNW. I suspect that point was what hit Ryan's nerve in the thread. Not a good sign when so many people refuse to realize how wrong this is on every level. |
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Post by nsc39d8 on Dec 28, 2020 6:07:56 GMT -8
I sent an email to Scott Lupia and am waiting for further response. The first response was written as a "I am not aware of this and checking it out" response. The FB link I posted has a post that Scott sent a shell for casting which PNW was going to profit. Scott stated the shell was for his use, will see where this goes. For now I am not buying from KV Models.
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Post by 12bridge on Dec 28, 2020 9:49:35 GMT -8
And the poster in question just deleted all of his threads..
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Post by sd40dash2 on Dec 28, 2020 9:54:36 GMT -8
^ Do you remember his name? I didn't take a screenshot but it seems to me his name was...John...CP Rail/SOO Conductor, was that right? He looked to be about 30 years old.
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Post by nsc39d8 on Dec 28, 2020 11:16:41 GMT -8
This thread is from the same guy: dieseldetailer.proboards.com/thread/19250/dirt-cheap-c630s-school-kitbash?page=1&scrollTo=120789I received an email back form Scott Lupia(KV Models) and he stated the C630 project was cancelled that started this thread. I have asked Scott if I could post his message to me or come and reply to this thread himself. One thing mentioned is that you can use a model like the Bowser shell and as long as you make changes to the original it is OK. There is a percentage on what must be changed before it is not a problem, does anybody know this percentage? I do not and Scott did not either. |
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Dec 28, 2020 12:07:05 GMT -8
Using ANY percentage of another company’s product to produce a model to SELL as your own is WRONG in my opinion. The percentage idea is based upon original artwork. 15% comes to mind, but If he any anyone else is using it as an excuse, they are still not getting my business and I will undermine them given a chance. The percentage game is a cope out for laziness and dishonesty. This thread is from the same guy: dieseldetailer.proboards.com/thread/19250/dirt-cheap-c630s-school-kitbash?page=1&scrollTo=120789I received an email back form Scott Lupia(KV Models) and he stated the C630 project was cancelled that started this thread. I have asked Scott if I could post his message to me or come and reply to this thread himself. One thing mentioned is that you can use a model like the Bowser shell and as long as you make changes to the original it is OK. There is a percentage on what must be changed before it is not a problem, does anybody know this percentage? I do not and Scott did not either. |
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Dec 28, 2020 12:31:59 GMT -8
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Post by nsc39d8 on Dec 28, 2020 13:29:45 GMT -8
Tim,
Thanks for posting that info. I had no idea as I build for myself and have a friend cast anything I need just for me and what he may want.
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Post by sd40dash2 on Dec 28, 2020 14:04:42 GMT -8
Thank you. Does anyone know who John is? It looks like the BCR M630W was not the only thing he built for the dawg. I have taken a couple of screenshots for reference and posted them to my own server:   |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Dec 28, 2020 14:20:00 GMT -8
...I build for myself and have a friend cast anything I need just for me and what he may want. Not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying you are producing casting masters for PNW as well??  |
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Post by Christian on Dec 28, 2020 16:10:46 GMT -8
Model railroaders have a tendency to use copyright ideas from the 1930's. Because it lets them do things on the cheap. Like the imaginary percent rule. The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DCMA) of 1998 changed everything. Far beyond "digital." The Act is very clear that you cannot profit from another person's work product or ideas. Those of us who earn or earned a living in the creative arts used to be a prime target for anyone to steal ideas and concepts and whole works; changing a teensy bit and calling it a "new" or "derivative" work. Musicians were particularly hard hit. Much of Elvis's recording content was used without permission or acknowledgment. Eddie Rabbitt's Cold Kentucky Rain for example. That couldn't happen now. Indeed, now musicians are proud of their roots and acknowledge their sources. You must have permission. And might have to pay a royalty. Permissions and royalties are always negotiable. There is a percent rule for reviewers quoting a published work. But that has been the subject of a long negotiation between journalists and publishers. It does not apply to stealing an eight bar phrase of music. It does not apply to stealing a chunk of a shell from Rapido. Following the Union Pacific's "come-to-Jesus" moment courtesy of Mike Wolf most, not all, railroads will grant a licence to established model companies. Some times free. Often times not. (Amtrak) That is how it is done. Not by stealing the work of a hobbiest modeler off of Shapeways. Now, as for Shapeways. In short Shapeways claims a Sergeant Schultz position which is correctly known as"Safe Harbor" under the DCMA. They play both sides against the middle. The are very clear that anything you upload is under copyright that you hold. But they won't enforce it. That is up to you. Here's a link to Shapeways blog explaining the policy. www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/19789-copyright-3d-printing-and-you-what-does-it-all-mean.html |
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Post by nsc39d8 on Dec 28, 2020 16:27:22 GMT -8
...I build for myself and have a friend cast anything I need just for me and what he may want. Not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying you are producing casting masters for PNW as well?? No I do not build masters for that company or any other. I build masters for myself and another modeler that does nice casting and etches of his own design will do them for me! So why would you think that when I am one that spoke against this guy building for PNW along with Fr8kar and Slowfreight. |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Dec 28, 2020 16:31:40 GMT -8
Not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying you are producing casting masters for PNW as well?? No I do not build masters for that company or any other. I build masters for myself and another modeler that does nice casting and etches of his own design will do them for me! So why would you think that when I am one that spoke against this guy building for PNW along with Fr8kar and Slowfreight. OK. I am obviously confused. Yes, you said and did the right things here at the start but I don't get why you are telling us about building masters yourself...what's the point? |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Dec 28, 2020 16:37:34 GMT -8
That is how it is done. Not by stealing the work of a hobbiest modeler off of Shapeways. Now, as for Shapeways. In short Shapeways claims a Sergeant Schultz position which is correctly known as"Safe Harbor" under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. (DMCA) They play both sides against the middle. The are very clear that anything you upload is under copyright that you hold. But they won't enforce it. That is up to you. Here's a link to Shapeways blog explaining the policy. www.shapeways.com/blog/archives/19789-copyright-3d-printing-and-you-what-does-it-all-mean.htmlThanks Christian. It seems that buying bodies from big companies like Atlas, Bowser, Rapido etc and combining them with parts from other sources like Shapeways artists, casting that in resin and selling the results is the business model of BDO. So far the Shapeways artists who made the VIA F40PH-2D HEP cabinet and the BCR W cab have been victims as well as the larger companies making the bodies. Next time someone asks for a locomotive "drive", you may wish to ask yourself if they are one of the customers that enable BDO etc to maintain their revenue stream. Pretty sad that so many people in this hobby put their modelling interests ahead of the real investments made by those who made the original parts. This is definitely a question of right vs wrong. |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Dec 30, 2020 8:45:19 GMT -8
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Post by canrailfan on Dec 30, 2020 11:13:44 GMT -8
No I do not build masters for that company or any other. I build masters for myself and another modeler that does nice casting and etches of his own design will do them for me! So why would you think that when I am one that spoke against this guy building for PNW along with Fr8kar and Slowfreight. OK. I am obviously confused. Yes, you said and did the right things here at the start but I don't get why you are telling us about building masters yourself...what's the point? It shouldn't be hard to understand that nsc39d8 and a friend share the tasks of creating castings and etchings they both want to use in their modeling. Many modelers do the same to create unique parts and details not otherwise available. The creation of a master part for making a casting mould is the normal first step. Nothing is said by nsc39d8 to imply he's copying someone else's product. |
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Post by Judge Doom on Dec 30, 2020 11:37:28 GMT -8
Usually it's the people who want things on the cheap that tend to be the BDO/PNW fanboys. As long as they're getting their poorly cast $35 shell, they don't care whose intellectual property or tooling is being ripped off. There's a few other threads on this forum that go into length about the BDO's going-ons. This has been going on for years, and has hurt historical societies (ARHS), Model RR manufacturers (Atlas, Athearn, Rapido, HIGHLINERS, etc), Shapeways designers, and even other (legit) resin shell manufacturers such as Kaslo (BDO used the cab from their CN GP9RM shell to make into a new master to cast). atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/5418/big-dawg-originalsatlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/7683/pacific-northwest-resins-shells |
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Post by santafe49 on Dec 30, 2020 15:32:43 GMT -8
Funny that the company name is Pacific Northwest Resin, but the shipping location is Alamo, TX, which is in far south Texas. Wonder if these are cast in Mexico and brought across the border in small quantities??
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Post by simulatortrain on Jan 4, 2021 6:18:11 GMT -8
The "brains" behind PNW, assuming it's the same guy as BDO, is named Bruce. I had his last name at one point from when he threatened me for calling out the poor quality of his castings, but I no longer have that.
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Post by sd40dash2 on Jan 4, 2021 6:45:58 GMT -8
^ "Bruce Gavin" -- but remember that could simply be a made-up name along with his actual location. Using fake names like this allows him to keep changing the name when things get too hot in the kitchen. Same old MO as 20 years ago when certain resin casters from Ontario were doing the same thing. Might even be the same people. CMR also provides a front for them to distribute their products while masking the true origins of the products. Kinda reminds me of PB if anyone remembers him. TIRR et al. LOL.
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Post by gevohogger on Jan 4, 2021 7:05:39 GMT -8
^ "Bruce Gavin" -- but remember that could simply be a made-up name along with his actual location. Using fake names like this allows him to keep changing the name when things get too hot in the kitchen. Same old MO as 20 years ago when certain resin casters from Ontario were doing the same thing. Might even be the same people. CMR also provides a front for them to distribute their products while masking the true origins of the products. Kinda reminds me of PB if anyone remembers him. TIRR et al. LOL.
He bought something from me and according to the USPS tracking info, it was delivered at a USPS Locker in San Juan TX, which is by McAllen TX on the Rio Grande River.
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Post by simulatortrain on Jan 4, 2021 7:57:40 GMT -8
I did a Google search for "Bruce Gavins Mattel" since he told me he used to work there and it's where he learned about mold-making. This brings up some results with the quote "Bruce Gavins and wife left Tyco Mattel and started Bad Dog," Bad Dog being a former manufacturer of HO slot cars of some sort. Bad Dog -> Big Dawg seems like a reasonable progression. Seems like the name is legit.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jan 4, 2021 10:18:35 GMT -8
I did a Google search for "Bruce Gavins Mattel" since he told me he used to work there and it's where he learned about mold-making. This brings up some results with the quote "Bruce Gavins and wife left Tyco Mattel and started Bad Dog," Bad Dog being a former manufacturer of HO slot cars of some sort. Bad Dog -> Big Dawg seems like a reasonable progression. Seems like the name is legit. Well, this sure does explain a lot of things. It doesn't look like he was manufacturing slot cars, it looks like he was cloning pre-existing slot car shells and parts from other manufacturers, or modifying them, cloning and selling them. Looks like he made the move from slot car shell cloning to model RR loco shell cloning, maybe there's more money in model trains than slot cars these days. www.hobbytalk.com/threads/what-ever-happened-to-baddog-slotcars.238563/ |
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