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Post by Baikal on Sept 19, 2022 14:51:53 GMT -8
What's the best way to bash an RSD-12 with accurate hood & overall length?
Just putting an RS-11 hood on an Atlas RSD-5 is "close" but the RS-11 is too short, hood & overall.
You can't model FCP (19) or NdeM (73) without it.
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Post by TBird1958 on Sept 20, 2022 6:35:13 GMT -8
I've kind of had this as a project to think about as well, I'd like to have a model of Utah Railway #600 to go with my Alligators and other RSDs. I can find a fair number of pictures of the prototype, but some accurate drawings would be really helpful, as I'd love to build/kitbash one. I have to admit to not knowing much about Alco units in general so any thing gained from the conversation is helpful.
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Post by ambluco on Sept 20, 2022 7:36:57 GMT -8
Previously published drawings in the model magazines are not accurate?
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 20, 2022 8:18:27 GMT -8
Being a drawing does not convey accuracy.
IF the draftsman can get fabrication and erection drawings from the builder, he might very well produce an accurate drawing. Or not.
Railroad Model Craftsman probably produced the most famous inaccuracy in the field when the draftsman placed an EMD style fan guard on the roof of a C-424 where, in reality, there was a smooth curved piece of sheet metal.
I also strongly suspect that the cause of Kato's apparent nose slope error on their F40PH was based on a drawing from Mainline Modeler. Don't yet quote me on that, but that's what I recall from checking things out a year ago.
Some drawings are more accurate than others. But which?
Ed
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Post by nsc39d8 on Sept 20, 2022 15:16:38 GMT -8
Being a N&W modeler I wanted a RSD-12 as well. Thing is I don't model Lambert's Point which is where these locos ended their life shoving coal for ship loading.
N&W got these from Nickel Plate during the merger.
I studied this far awhile and there is no good answer. As the RSD12 has one extra door over the RS11 and no one makes ALCO doors, so it is a scratch build part or etch.
There is a fairly good brass model out there and I think the builder was ALCO Models. Hard to find brass piece as well.
Easiest way is take the 3 ft rule and put the RS11 shell on the RSD4/5 chassis using all Atlas parts. My problem doing this is the NKP units were non dynamic.
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Post by keystonefarm on Sept 20, 2022 15:30:42 GMT -8
Being a N&W modeler I wanted a RSD-12 as well. Thing is I don't model Lambert's Point which is where these locos ended their life shoving coal for ship loading. N&W got these from Nickel Plate during the merger. I studied this far awhile and there is no good answer. As the RSD12 has one extra door over the RS11 and no one makes ALCO doors, so it is a scratch build part or etch. There is a fairly good brass model out there and I think the builder was ALCO Models. Hard to find brass piece as well. Easiest way is take the 3 ft rule and put the RS11 shell on the RSD4/5 chassis using all Atlas parts. My problem doing this is the NKP units were non dynamic. I have three of the original Atlas RSD-12's still in operation after many years. Over those years many have asked where did you get a RSD-12 !! Good enough for me currently !! Change the brake cylinder locations is a big help in the overall looks. A 3d printed shell and frame using the Atlas drive would be a good start. ---- Ken |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 20, 2022 16:40:18 GMT -8
Sharp looking loco. I see that NdeM was by far the biggest owner. I rather fancy the SP ones and the PC, to go with my C-430's.
For a PNW modeler, I'm getting quite the collection of PC diesels.
Ed
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Post by lvrr325 on Sept 20, 2022 18:09:04 GMT -8
The Atlas shell has been around long enough it seems like you could cut up an old molded-grabs one for doors for not a great expense.
You could also watch eBay for first run Rapido RS11s that perhaps have been tossed to the floor in frustration and get donor parts there.
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Post by Baikal on Sept 20, 2022 21:34:17 GMT -8
Being a drawing does not convey accuracy. IF the draftsman can get fabrication and erection drawings from the builder, he might very well produce an accurate drawing. Or not. Railroad Model Craftsman probably produced the most famous inaccuracy in the field when the draftsman placed an EMD style fan guard on the roof of a C-424 where, in reality, there was a smooth curved piece of sheet metal. I also strongly suspect that the cause of Kato's apparent nose slope error on their F40PH was based on a drawing from Mainline Modeler. Don't yet quote me on that, but that's what I recall from checking things out a year ago. Some drawings are more accurate than others. But which? Ed
Not only suspect drawings, but an interweb search will turn up many different figures for various RSD-12 dimensions. Also true for other Alco roadswitchers- stuff like differing cab widths that makes ALL sources suspect.
It's possible that the only way to get accurate numbers for basic RSD-12 dimensions is to go out ato the field and measure one.
The hood and overall length are both "about" a foot longer than the RS-11.
It's also possible that not all RSD-12s have the same dimensions. SP's were rebuilt from RSD-5s and it's unclear if the frames were reused.
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Post by lvrr325 on Sept 21, 2022 1:29:17 GMT -8
Just to throw a wild card in the mix, LV 403, a factory low hood RS11, was wrecked and repaired in 1972. According to what I've read the repairs required replacement of the long hood, and the donor was a former C&O RSD12 that had been traded in to GE. Looking at pictures, the vents on the side upper hood (dynamic brake section) match up. Whether or not they shortened it to fit, I can't find good enough photos to be certain.
The Atlas model, the underframe is the same I believe for all RS3, RSD4/5, RS11 and RSD12. Or the 4 axles shared one frame and the six the other. So if you used one for the basis of an SP model, maybe it would be correct.
Measuring one shouldn't be too hard, there's a NKP unit in Bellevue I've been through the cab of, there's two SP units in a museum in California, and maybe some former Conrail MT-6 slugs. There's another former LS&I unit sitting derelict but on private property.
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Post by drsvelte on Sept 21, 2022 8:10:53 GMT -8
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Post by riogrande on Sept 21, 2022 12:29:12 GMT -8
Isn't the RSD12 among future models that Bowser is looking to produce? If they offer a Utah Rwy, I'm in.
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Post by ambluco on Sept 21, 2022 12:37:24 GMT -8
I had not heard the Bowser RSD12 connection.
The Alco Models model is poor.
The Overland RSD12 is probably the best out there so far.
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Post by Baikal on Sept 21, 2022 14:40:21 GMT -8
Just to throw a wild card in the mix, LV 403, a factory low hood RS11, was wrecked and repaired in 1972. According to what I've read the repairs required replacement of the long hood, and the donor was a former C&O RSD12 that had been traded in to GE. Looking at pictures, the vents on the side upper hood (dynamic brake section) match up. Whether or not they shortened it to fit, I can't find good enough photos to be certain. The Atlas model, the underframe is the same I believe for all RS3, RSD4/5, RS11 and RSD12. Or the 4 axles shared one frame and the six the other. So if you used one for the basis of an SP model, maybe it would be correct. Measuring one shouldn't be too hard, there's a NKP unit in Bellevue I've been through the cab of, there's two SP units in a museum in California, and maybe some former Conrail MT-6 slugs. There's another former LS&I unit sitting derelict but on private property.
In 2008 I measured former SP 2954 and 2958 at the SoCal RR Museum in Perris. These figs are accurate to nearest 1/2" or better.
Length over end plates 53' 9" Bolster to bolster 35' 5" Fuel tank 11' 7" End plate to bolster (both ends same) 9' 2" Bolster to center axle offset 1' 10.5"
Of course I did not get the hood lengths...
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Post by Baikal on Sept 21, 2022 14:42:12 GMT -8
Isn't the RSD12 among future models that Bowser is looking to produce? If they offer a Utah Rwy, I'm in.
Is this a rumor a la RS-3 ---> RSD-5 ---> RSD-12?
Or something more substantial?
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Post by riogrande on Sept 21, 2022 14:48:07 GMT -8
Others have commented that Bowser may eventually work to produce more Alco models so maybe eventually the RSD12
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Post by lvrr325 on Sept 21, 2022 14:49:13 GMT -8
Sometime in 2027
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Post by drsvelte on Sept 21, 2022 16:00:28 GMT -8
PRR version  |
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Post by dtinut on Sept 22, 2022 8:34:18 GMT -8
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Post by Baikal on Sept 22, 2022 10:48:38 GMT -8
Thanks. Yet another set of dimensions, some that match other sources, some that don't.
dieselshop says bolster-bolster is 35' 3". I measured the former SP units (with a 50' steel tape) at 35' 5", the same as on the PRR drawing provided by drsvelte.
It also says "Engine Hood Width: 9'-11"". |
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Post by ambluco on Sept 22, 2022 11:38:04 GMT -8
The Mainline Modeler plans are beautiful. What do those say?
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Post by Baikal on Sept 22, 2022 12:51:23 GMT -8
The Mainline Modeler plans are beautiful. What do those say?
I don't have the MM issue. Where can the drawings be seen?
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Post by atsf_4 on Sept 22, 2022 13:21:34 GMT -8
Bowser has not ever mentioned anything about an RSD-12 that I have heard.
They are focusing on models that for the most part (C-430 was a shining exception) have significant sales potential ie many possible paint schemes, preferably at least some roadnames that are among the most popular. Even the C-430 had many possible paint schemes, and LV, Reading and Conrail in particular sell very well for Bowser as evidenced by numerous runs of C-628 and C-630 and even LV C-430 cancelled order/fantasy scheme.
They are planning other variants of the RS-3 including eventually other phases. Lee already has samples (of some) and artwork for the paint and lettering and will show them to those who ask in person when visiting their retail store (if he is there).
Note on their website there is a page for the RS-3 that specifically hints at roadnames they are definitely planning to do, like for example Interstate. There will likely be more roadnames than what is on that list before they are done.
Then RSD-4/5. In there is another Alco that I'm probably not allowed to mention as they have not to my knowledge publicly mentioned it on facebook or anywhere else.
Then perhaps C-415
But RSD-12, not ever mentioned.
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Post by riogrande on Sept 22, 2022 13:26:42 GMT -8
Just for the record, I didn't say Bowser mentioned the RSD-12. What I did say is some have mentioned that it is thought that Bowser will work their way through Alco diesels which implied the RSD-12 might eventually get done. I'm not holding my breath btw.
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Post by atsf_4 on Sept 22, 2022 13:28:32 GMT -8
Till they are done they will have done many Alcos, yes.
Just I've never once heard them say anything about an RSD-12.
And I can't give away anything they haven't at least mentioned somewhere on a public forum.
The RSD-4/5 has been mentioned at times.
I do not think they will ever do C-424 or C-425 because Bowser doesn't think there are enough sales remaining there to justify a new from the ground up model. (And Atlas most likely believes the same thing.)
Again, they are trying to be smarter about sales versus what is made.
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Post by lvrr325 on Sept 22, 2022 13:34:52 GMT -8
My "sometime in 2027" was sarcastic.
I would think an RSD12 has reasonable sales potential between SP and PRR/PC/Conrail versions alone.
C&O/B&O, LASCO, Utah Railway, LS&I, NKP, plus the Mexican examples. You could even go all out and tool up a hood for the MT-6.
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Post by atsf_4 on Sept 22, 2022 13:40:51 GMT -8
Mexican roadnames have not done very well. That's why Bowser killed the hot FCP M-630/M-636 schemes. Not enough pre-orders. And every time somebody has done Mexican diesels, excepting perhaps the Atlas C-424's of many years ago now that sold out, they tend to languish.
If you look you can still find the Atlas FCP U30C brand new in box at a few dealers (Original Whistle Stop has had one on their list for quite some time) and Western Depot dumped those on sale to get rid of them not that long ago.
I've personally contacted Rapido a couple years ago now about them actually making the neat FCP Alco FA-2, and their response was that they track the number of times a given engine is requested and I was the ONLY person who ever requested the FCP FA-2. They said it has absolutely no chance of ever getting made.
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Post by drsvelte on Sept 22, 2022 13:51:39 GMT -8
The Mainline Modeler plans are beautiful. What do those say?
I don't have the MM issue. Where can the drawings be seen?
The Chesapeake & Ohio Historical Society offers the Mainline Modeler collection on DVD. |
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Post by atsf_4 on Sept 22, 2022 13:56:54 GMT -8
While the RSD-15 is a different unit, and BLI's model could be improved with more correct details to represent the ATSF and ex-ATSF units, I think one challenge is that many of the same railroads that had the RSD-12 also had the RSD-15, and the RSD-15's have been readily available. So I think folks have perhaps overlooked the RSD-12 in favor of the RSD-15.
Best thing you can do is a poll of what engines should get made. To my knowledge every time somebody does such a poll the winning engines actually do get announced and made. It's happened with C-430, SDL-39, SDP-45 and likely others.
Though they may not post here, anything that wins a legitimate poll actually gets noticed by the manufacturers.
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Post by lvrr325 on Sept 22, 2022 14:04:59 GMT -8
I'd buy an Atlas or Bowser RSD12. I've avoided the BLI "comes with smoke sooner or later whether you want it or not" engines.
Edit: Even if you discount the Mexico and Brazil engines, 69 US units is more than the C430 sold. Two to three paint schemes per original owner.
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