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Post by riogrande on May 1, 2023 8:37:08 GMT -8
not to revive an old thread, BUT: I had a very nice conversation with Lee at the Supertrain show in Calgary, AB a couple weeks ago, and he told me something I found very surprising: orders have not been very good for these models, and as of now he doesn't have enough orders to actually produce them. I imagine the current economic situation has something to do with that, not as many people are putting pre orders on things when they are not sure what their situation will be in a year or two when the models come out. In any case, if anyone here wants these models and has not pre-ordered one, Get your orders in! Too much Canadian stuff lately- on all fronts. I'd like to see more Mexican models, articles, etc. LOL, lots of Canadians are on Atlas anymore. |
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Post by Baikal on May 1, 2023 10:17:50 GMT -8
Too much Canadian stuff lately- on all fronts. I'd like to see more Mexican models, articles, etc. LOL, lots of Canadians are on Atlas anymore.
With the continuing integration of US/CAN railroads + the deluge of stuff from Canada-focused Rapido it's not surprising there's some more people modeling Canadian roads.
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Post by cemr5396 on May 1, 2023 10:47:51 GMT -8
I'm sorry, but it has been a long time since Rapido was 'Canadian focused'. Sure they still do Canadian stuff but it is no longer the majority of what they make.
Some would argue that is part of the reason for the increasing number of mistakes with their models: simply making things that nobody there has any real first hand knowledge on.
I'm not sure I buy that - just look at the fact they refuse over and over to do any more than half assed attempts at HEP-equipped VIA cars, when the guy running the company is literally one of the most knowledgeable people about all things VIA on the face of the planet.
And there have always been lots of Canadian modelers. The change that has happened in the last 10-15 years is that companies have decided that it might actually be worth making proper models of our equipment. Until recently if you wanted proper models of Canadian stuff you either bought brass or you built it yourself. In many cases that is still true.
Now back to the SD40-2Ws....
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Post by jonklein611 on May 1, 2023 11:02:47 GMT -8
I'm not sure I buy that - just look at the fact they refuse over and over to do any more than half assed attempts at HEP-equipped VIA cars, when the guy running the company is literally one of the most knowledgeable people about all things VIA on the face of the planet. They updated that project. Full HEP2 versions (external) are coming.   It would be nice if they came back and re did the HEP1's though... |
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Post by cemr5396 on May 1, 2023 11:17:28 GMT -8
jonklein611,
They are still not doing the correct interior for the HEP2s, instead they are using the same interior as in the long distance coaches.
And, as you mentioned, still no HEP1s or long distance cars. Basically, if you don't model the Windsor-Quebec Corridor, you are SOL.
Still a sad state of affairs from a company that was founded on producing accurate Canadian passenger equipment.
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Post by cp6027 on May 1, 2023 11:28:21 GMT -8
not to revive an old thread, BUT: I had a very nice conversation with Lee at the Supertrain show in Calgary, AB a couple weeks ago, and he told me something I found very surprising: orders have not been very good for these models, and as of now he doesn't have enough orders to actually produce them. I imagine the current economic situation has something to do with that, not as many people are putting pre orders on things when they are not sure what their situation will be in a year or two when the models come out. In any case, if anyone here wants these models and has not pre-ordered one, Get your orders in! Bigger issue is probably that Intermountain flooded the market with two (or more?) runs of their SD40-2W and, though flawed, they probably satisfy a large percentage of modelers that want one. Intermountain also did the flashy Expo 86 scheme that Bowser is not offering (I assume they are leaving that one for a hopeful second run). Also, Bowser has never shown any artwork, CAD or samples of these units. I found the late January announcement email to be a bit confusing since the pictures were not the best and didn't always match the phase and detail descriptions exactly (I ordered four but I'm still not sure if they are the correct versions for my era or not). Then the order deadline was only two months later at the end of March with no follow-up email or information from Bowser (they made one Facebook post after the deadline) It seems Bowser could do a bit more to promote the project and communicate with modelers during such a short pre-order window, or maybe set the deadline to be after a big Canadian show like Supertrain where they could get some hype going. I think these just got lost in a bunch of recent CN six-axle arrivals, announcements and pre-order deadlines from a bunch of manufacturers. |
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Post by cemr5396 on May 1, 2023 12:23:55 GMT -8
I don't remember exactly how much information there was or was not at the time it was announced, but their website has lots of information about which road number specific details they are doing: www.bowser-trains.com/new/sd40-2W.html As far as I can see there aren't any discrepancies there between the descriptions and the representative photos. It is true there are lots of possible reasons why people didn't order them, but I don't think "they didn't know" is one of them. When these locomotives were announced at Amherst there was a LOT of excitement pretty much across the board among modelers from what I could see. I don't know why exactly people did not put orders in, but if everyone who stated they were excited and wanted to get one or more of these had actually put their money where their mouth was and ordered them, we would not be having this conversation right now.
As for the Expo 86 unit, I think Bowser is more focused on catering to the prototype modeler and making things that have a broad use era than flashy, short lived schemes like the Expo. They have never done the CP Rail Expo units either, and they are on their 4th run of SD40-2s at this point. They've already done nearly every possible version.
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Post by Baikal on May 1, 2023 12:41:44 GMT -8
It is true there are lots of possible reasons why people didn't order them, but I don't think "they didn't know" is one of them.
Yep.
Just too much Canadian content in the last three years. Now we're stuffed, like John Candy at a poutine & Labatt Blue buffet.
Oferta y demanda, oferta y demanda.
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Post by cemr5396 on May 1, 2023 12:43:53 GMT -8
It is true there are lots of possible reasons why people didn't order them, but I don't think "they didn't know" is one of them.
Yep.
Just too much Canadian content in the last three years. Now we're stuffed, like John Candy at a poutine & Labatt Blue buffet.
sure, buddy.
The manufacturers are still making 90% US prototypes, but "too much Canadian stuff" is the problem.
Yup.
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Post by Baikal on May 1, 2023 12:46:46 GMT -8
Yep.
Just too much Canadian content in the last three years. Now we're stuffed, like John Candy at a poutine & Labatt Blue buffet.
sure, buddy.
The manufacturers are still making 90% US prototypes, but "too much Canadian stuff" is the problem.
Yup.
Supply and demand works in Canada too, mon ami couronne sujet.
BTW, 10% Canadian prototypes would be way over-representative (aka stuffed) no matter how you compare US & Canadian railroads. Thanks for making my point, mon ami.
Too much Canadian is on the market. Grasp the concept.
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Post by sd80mac on May 1, 2023 13:11:28 GMT -8
I don't agree with that assertation at all. There is a lot more Canadian stuff on the market today than in the past, but its a drop in the bucket compared to everything else.
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Post by gevohogger on May 1, 2023 13:13:11 GMT -8
Canada has just under 12% the population of the US, so it could be said that Canada is under-represented in HO model railroading....
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Post by Baikal on May 1, 2023 13:15:02 GMT -8
Canada has just under 12% the population of the US, so it could be said that Canada is under-represented in HO model railroading....
Rail miles/volume/equipment not pop.
We're not collecting dolls.
"no matter how you compare US & Canadian railroads."
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Post by Baikal on May 1, 2023 13:16:20 GMT -8
I don't agree with that assertation at all. There is a lot more Canadian stuff on the market today than in the past, but its a drop in the bucket compared to everything else.
Evidently it's still too much. That's why much of it isn't selling or is selling slow. |
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Post by csxt8400 on May 1, 2023 13:49:15 GMT -8
I wouldn't say there is too much on the market, but I would say there has been an explosion over the last six years or so in prototypical examples coming to said market.
-CN Dash 9's with both cabs
-CP GP38-2's
-CN C40-8M's
-CN SD60F's
-CP SD90 variants
-CP SD70ACU's
-CP SD40-2s/SD40-2F
-CP SD30ECO's
-CN M420's
-CN GP9RM (incoming)
That's just off the top of my head. With the price of two units with sound, you're easily around 600 bucks right there. How many people have enough of what's listed above to not jump with both feet for another well done Canadian prototype, who's to say.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 14:34:40 GMT -8
Bowser tried to do the Mexican M-636's including at least one paint scheme of the FCP ones pictured in Baikal's avatar above, and virtually nobody pre-ordered them at all. They were offered and advertised and had to be dropped from production maybe 5 years ago now if not longer (artwork they had shown has long since been removed from the website). Now that multiple runs of Canadian MLW versions have already been completed, they would most likely not be able to add Mexican versions to any future runs as the overall sales numbers across the entire run would be even less (reruns typically decrease in sales volume). I wanted those models for myself, and asked specifically about them, but that ship has sailed. When they did the FCP blue and yellow (with orange handrails) C-628 diesels, they did not sell very well and ended up I think being blown out in a sale to their dealers.
I also contacted Rapido regarding the FCP FA-2 locomotive. Rapido has the correct model in the correct version with I believe all the details needed, at least for an as delivered version, excepting maybe perhaps numberboards being slightly different. They very specifically told me that I was the one and only person who requested the FCP FA-2, and that as such it has zero chance of ever being produced. That allegedly came from Jason himself. Rapido kindly explained that they actually track the number of people who ask for a given roadname and that does factor into their rerun decisions, but interest has to be significant. One or two people asking for it is not going to get it done.
So far as Bowser offering Canadian prototype models, they have been crystal clear that they are going to make what sells. A lot of American version models have already been done and done pretty well by others, while there are plenty of uniquely Canadian models that have never been done or have never been done well. They have found that Canadian customers really buy their trains.
The Canadian SD40 model tooling has unresolved and costly issues. While they may publicly say it is still on the back burner, there are now plenty of other projects in front of it that will get done first. I would be willing to bet money that the RSD-4/5 and the C-415 get done before a Canadian SD40, especially now that BLI has incorporated some Canadian details into their brand-new models. That just took away some potential Canadian SD40 sales.
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Post by Baikal on May 1, 2023 16:31:59 GMT -8
Bowser tried to do the Mexican M-636's including at least one paint scheme of the FCP ones pictured in Baikal's avatar above, and virtually nobody pre-ordered them at all. They were offered and advertised and had to be dropped from production maybe 5 years ago now if not longer (artwork they had shown has long since been removed from the website). Now that multiple runs of Canadian MLW versions have already been completed, they would most likely not be able to add Mexican versions to any future runs as the overall sales numbers across the entire run would be even less (reruns typically decrease in sales volume). I wanted those models for myself, and asked specifically about them, but that ship has sailed. When they did the FCP blue and yellow (with orange handrails) C-628 diesels, they did not sell very well and ended up I think being blown out in a sale to their dealers. I also contacted Rapido regarding the FCP FA-2 locomotive. Rapido has the correct model in the correct version with I believe all the details needed, at least for an as delivered version, excepting maybe perhaps numberboards being slightly different. They very specifically told me that I was the one and only person who requested the FCP FA-2, and that as such it has zero chance of ever being produced. That allegedly came from Jason himself. Rapido kindly explained that they actually track the number of people who ask for a given roadname and that does factor into their rerun decisions, but interest has to be significant. One or two people asking for it is not going to get it done. So far as Bowser offering Canadian prototype models, they have been crystal clear that they are going to make what sells. A lot of American version models have already been done and done pretty well by others, while there are plenty of uniquely Canadian models that have never been done or have never been done well. They have found that Canadian customers really buy their trains. The Canadian SD40 model tooling has unresolved and costly issues. While they may publicly say it is still on the back burner, there are now plenty of other projects in front of it that will get done first. I would be willing to bet money that the RSD-4/5 and the C-415 get done before a Canadian SD40, especially now that BLI has incorporated some Canadian details into their brand-new models. That just took away some potential Canadian SD40 sales.
Yep, Mexican models don't sell well, even Canadian Mexican locos like the MLW/BBD stuff. Various reasons, probably mostly due to not having models made in the past + not many RR modelers in Mexico and not many people north of the border interested in Mexican RRs. Which is too bad- steam, wooden pax cars, & lots of narrow gauge into the mid 60s, etc.
I agree re: RSD-4/5 and the C-415 timing. At least with RSD-5s one could model 50s & 60s FCP (Add some RSD-12s and you're in great shape). I hope the C-415 gets here this decade. It should sell relatively well.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 16:42:44 GMT -8
Bowser had good support and information from Mexican railfans; they had input into the paint colors for the C-628 (I think even paint chips). It was not for any lack of trying, and the Mexican railfans were very helpful so I was told.
Morning Sun has done just one book on NdeM; it is an excellent book but took many more years to sell out than most other Morning Sun books. That unfortunately seems to reflect a lack of interest in Mexican railroads. I wish it were different; my local friends comment on how hot the paint schemes really are.
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Post by cp6027 on May 1, 2023 17:02:44 GMT -8
I don't remember exactly how much information there was or was not at the time it was announced, but their website has lots of information about which road number specific details they are doing: www.bowser-trains.com/new/sd40-2W.html As far as I can see there aren't any discrepancies there between the descriptions and the representative photos. It is true there are lots of possible reasons why people didn't order them, but I don't think "they didn't know" is one of them. When these locomotives were announced at Amherst there was a LOT of excitement pretty much across the board among modelers from what I could see. I don't know why exactly people did not put orders in, but if everyone who stated they were excited and wanted to get one or more of these had actually put their money where their mouth was and ordered them, we would not be having this conversation right now.
As for the Expo 86 unit, I think Bowser is more focused on catering to the prototype modeler and making things that have a broad use era than flashy, short lived schemes like the Expo. They have never done the CP Rail Expo units either, and they are on their 4th run of SD40-2s at this point. They've already done nearly every possible version.
You make good points but I will need to respectfully agree to disagree. The website announcement for "CN CLASS GF-30T. As Delivered No snow shields" lists snow shields and rear ditch lights in the details when I don't think it should come with either. And technically I believe these units were delivered without ditch lights? Do the "CN CLASS GF-30U. Horn mounted over the Bell" in the CNNA scheme actually have the horn over the bell or not? The way they appear to have copied over the list of standard features is a bit of a mess. Bowser never sent a "order deadline alert" email about these, and they've never sent an email or made a post stating that they need more orders for them to get made. But thank you for spreading the word for them. You are correct that Bowser has never done the CP Expo 86 units even though most ran in that scheme for around five years. I could use one, but I've also never checked to see if any of the six Expo 86 units match the particular phase variations Bowser has offered. However, Bowser has done other short-lived variations like the CP units with "Elephant Ears" that only ran that way for around a year and the oddball CN repaints of the ex-CP Ontario Hydro units. But to your point those were mostly on later runs. |
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Post by hudsonyard on May 1, 2023 21:01:39 GMT -8
Bowser had good support and information from Mexican railfans; they had input into the paint colors for the C-628 (I think even paint chips). It was not for any lack of trying, and the Mexican railfans were very helpful so I was told. Morning Sun has done just one book on NdeM; it is an excellent book but took many more years to sell out than most other Morning Sun books. That unfortunately seems to reflect a lack of interest in Mexican railroads. I wish it were different; my local friends comment on how hot the paint schemes really are.
I met a younger modeler recently who is interested in 70's Mexican railroads, as he is of Mexican-american descent, i told him that he's picked a prototype that's gonna take a lot of rolling your own and to keep plugging away at it. It must be incredibly frustrating to know certain things will just never be made.
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Post by cemr5396 on May 1, 2023 21:44:40 GMT -8
You make good points but I will need to respectfully agree to disagree. The website announcement for "CN CLASS GF-30T. As Delivered No snow shields" lists snow shields and rear ditch lights in the details when I don't think it should come with either. And technically I believe these units were delivered without ditch lights? Do the "CN CLASS GF-30U. Horn mounted over the Bell" in the CNNA scheme actually have the horn over the bell or not? The way they appear to have copied over the list of standard features is a bit of a mess. Now that you point it out, there is a lot of copy/pasting going on. I had not noticed that at first. But I think if you go based on what is depicted in the photos, you would be fine.
The 'as delivered' units with ditch lights...... well I believe you are correct that they did not have them from the factory, but they did not last long without them either. And after they added them, it was quite a while before they made any other changes to the units. So if you are Bowser, do you make them truly 'As delivered' or add ditchlights and they probably can get way more sales out of them. If someone wants to remove their ditchlights and backdate the model, a Xuron snipper would take care of that in about 2 seconds 
the "rear light ditch light" that is present in every item description is a typo, I'm almost certain there is supposed to be a comma between "rear light" and "ditch lights". Rear ditch lights on the CN SD40-2Ws are exceedingly rare, very few got them that I know of.
Most times these days if they are going somewhere with a single unit (like on a local switching job or wayfreight) and they need to run long hood forward, they have magnetic temporary ditchlights they can stick on the pilot and plug into the MU Plug for power. Back in the day those units were never used for stuff like that so it was a non factor back then.
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Post by wagnersteve on May 2, 2023 4:40:22 GMT -8
Years ago there were several excellent commercial videotapes about Mexican railroads on which, perhaps even more than in Canada, some traditional railroading practices lasted longer than in the United States.
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Post by talltim on May 2, 2023 5:34:12 GMT -8
Canada has just under 12% the population of the US, so it could be said that Canada is under-represented in HO model railroading....
Rail miles/volume/equipment not pop.
We're not collecting dolls.
"no matter how you compare US & Canadian railroads."
Thats a terrible way to measure the market. e.g the UK has 2/3 of the rail mileage of Canada, but there have been far more new UK models released in the past few years than Canadian. And thats before you consider that a lot of Canadian stock can also be seen in the US, whereas UK stock is captive. (Gut feeling is that there have been as many new models of UK stuff as US stuff recently)
And population is far more suggestive of the size of the market than the quantity of the prototype is. Any average individual modeler doesn't buy less stuff because their national railroads are smaller.
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Post by Baikal on May 2, 2023 6:51:18 GMT -8
Rail miles/volume/equipment not pop.
We're not collecting dolls.
"no matter how you compare US & Canadian railroads."
Thats a terrible way to measure the market. e.g the UK has 2/3 of the rail mileage of Canada, but there have been far more new UK models released in the past few years than Canadian. And thats before you consider that a lot of Canadian stock can also be seen in the US, whereas UK stock is captive. (Gut feeling is that there have been as many new models of UK stuff as US stuff recently)
And population is far more suggestive of the size of the market than the quantity of the prototype is. Any average individual modeler doesn't buy less stuff because their national railroads are smaller.
As a professional railroad transportation planner (intercity passenger, comuter, transit, and freight), no it's not a "terrible way..." PM me and I'll point you to some basic transportation planning & operations material.
Anyway, there's too many Canadian models, articles, ads, all of it. |
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Post by grabirons on May 2, 2023 11:22:15 GMT -8
Not to derail this thread but I would like to add something about how Mexican roads don't sell. Walters has another run of cylindrical hoppers out and one of them is a plain Gray NdeM. www.walthers.com/search/?q=Mainline+cylindrical+NdeMThose must sell as some are likely bought second hand from Canadian roads which because of their age, may never leave Mexico again. Some may travel into the US,but not for much longer due to the 50 year rule. I live in Wisconsin and I don't see any Mexican rail cars here, if ever. Although, many years ago I would see one or two here or there, uncommonly. I would say they're probably more common in the south and southwest even right now. I know you guys were talking about locomotives but just would like to add my two cents. |
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2023 13:50:26 GMT -8
I pass Enola Yard multiple times per day.
FXE, TFM, KCS de Mexico, and KCS autoracks are pretty common, as are 50+ car solid trains of all enclosed autoracks. I've counted 56 in one train and could have missed some as trees obscure part of the yard and I'm typically driving along it.
We still see plenty of 1970's Railbox 50' box cars (though they are getting rough by now), and along with them we see a few 1970's era NdeM boxcars, usually in the brown paint scheme. I haven't seen a blue one like the Atlas 50' boxcar in awhile but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. There are plenty of high cube boxcars hauling newsprint, which includes the TTX 50' and 60' varieties as well as just about any Canadian boxcars. Lots of lumber racks get here hauling everything from finished lumber to granite slabs and steel plates.
We do see Mexican grain cars including occasional NdeM cars, but more likely FXE and TFM grain cars, and of course KCS and KCS de Mexico.
From time to time, Mexican road power makes it all the way to Enola. I have personally seen several of the red, white, and green FXE diesels, and less commonly the grey TFM diesels, also KCS diesels though it is rare to see the Southern Belle paint scheme units here. I know I have seen a couple.
CN, CP, UP, and BNSF diesels are common. Typically one of those every other day at Enola, or else on the East-West Mainline which passes just north of Enola via the Rockville Bridge. We see all kinds of diesels during my sons' high school baseball games.
Less commonly we see CSX diesels parked at Enola. That is about as far north as they get.
I have seen just about every single NS Heritage diesel unit either at Enola or on the East-West mainline, many of them multiple times.
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Post by lvrr325 on May 2, 2023 16:26:28 GMT -8
NdeM boxcars are pretty common on the rail cams I watch. But it's a relatively new thing, I don't remember seeing them years ago.
There are some coming in a few weeks, Atlas Trainman so probably foobies or not 100% correct, but Atlas thinks they'll be here around the 15th.
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 2, 2023 17:05:50 GMT -8
I remember seeing the occasional NdeM blue 50' box in Oakland in the seventies.
Ed
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2023 6:11:44 GMT -8
Though Atlas has done several Trainman series Mexican paint schemes, they did do correct to my knowledge 50' boxcars in the Mexican light blue with off white lettering scheme a couple years ago, and I know I've seen the brown versions of the same car. The blue cars didn't sell out very fast and one can probably still find them available for sale in dealer inventories, if you look.
Many of the NdeM and FCP paint schemes are understated and do not stand out from the other more typical American cars, so it is all too easy to not notice them.
Just because one may not notice them does not mean they aren't or weren't there.
Some of them just have Mexican reporting marks on an otherwise blah colored plain jane freight car.
Athearn recently did the two-tone blue and orange NdeM SD40 or 40-2, and ST did the ex-MILW NdeM SD40-2 in the two-tone blue and orange. They are gorgeous engines, and are still lingering in dealer inventories.
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cn2240
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Post by cn2240 on May 5, 2023 3:47:31 GMT -8
Bowser has posted an update about this project on their website which concurs with what cemr5396 said.
"Due to extreme lack of interest (pre-orders), we are announcing the GMD SD40-2(W)
again. If there continues to be insufficient pre-orders, we put the project on indefinite hold.
New pre-orders due date is June 30th 2023."
I was potentially interested in getting one but not that eager to the point of putting in a pre-order. Now if Bowser were to revive the old SD40 project on the other hand...
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