Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2023 11:34:54 GMT -8
Both ST and ExactRail used some very reputable dealers, who have actual brick and mortar stores, to get established, and then both companies quite abruptly cut some dealers off from further purchases. ST has given their side of the story on these forums years ago as to what transpired. The individual stores don't have time or desire to come on here and give their side of the story. As lvrr325 has said, there are reasons they do not want to get doxxed or whatever.
I'm trying to buy a ST item right now, and my local dealers are among those who were cutoff and are unable to obtain ST items at any price point at which they can make even a modest profit. My choices are limited to a couple e-tailers who may have the item in stock.
I don't know lvrr325 or whatever b&m dealer he may be or used to be, but what he has said is true to the best of my knowledge.
I was just at the Timonium show. The only dealers who had any ST items to speak of were Spring Creek who came all the way from Nebraska, Yankee Dabbler (who always has them but often does not let you open the box to look at the locos, at least not in the past when boxes were sealed), White Rose Hobbies (new to Timonium this show?), and that was about it for sellers handling brand new ST items. Other dealers may have had a few ST items here or there, but not much brand-new current stuff.
If I can't be allowed to open and look at the items, I generally will not buy them. That might have a little bit to do with why certain items were "slow sellers" for ST, as during certain years, you were not allowed by dealers to break the seal to even look at the items and photos of some items on their website were underwhelming.
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tomoc
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Post by tomoc on Feb 9, 2023 13:37:10 GMT -8
The 3 biggest dealers beside Spring Creek that I am aware of are:
Lombard Hobbies in Illinois Lombardhobby.com
Hiawatha Hobbies in Wisconsin Hiawathahobbies.com
Trainlife in Utah Trainlife.com
I can’t remember the last time I even tried to open a sealed box in a brick and mortar store unless it was to test a locomotive and the sales guy opened box for me. Other than Black Carbon cars that they re-issued what ST product has been a slow seller?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2023 14:19:54 GMT -8
I don't know where you are, but the stores around me allow the customer to at least see what is inside the box, and generally they allow customers to test run new locos. That's part of the customer service they provide for the higher than mail order price. You get to see, touch, taste, smell (yes I have a friend who actually does that though it seems strange to me too) new locos.
Of course there are customers who test run and play with them at the store and then go buy it online somewhere, but most regular customers do not do that. However, some of them test run just about every new loco that comes out.
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Post by cr9617 on Feb 9, 2023 14:49:57 GMT -8
Other than Black Carbon cars that they re-issued what ST product has been a slow seller? They mentioned that the second run of SD45s "a little soft on sales".
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Feb 9, 2023 15:08:24 GMT -8
Other than Black Carbon cars that they re-issued what ST product has been a slow seller? They mentioned that the second run of SD45s "a little soft on sales". They seemed to be SOLD OUT at SXT quickly other than the EL units (the ones with the wrong gray)
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 9, 2023 15:53:46 GMT -8
I don't know where you are, but the stores around me allow the customer to at least see what is inside the box, and generally they allow customers to test run new locos. That's part of the customer service they provide for the higher than mail order price. You get to see, touch, taste, smell (yes I have a friend who actually does that though it seems strange to me too) new locos. Of course there are customers who test run and play with them at the store and then go buy it online somewhere, but most regular customers do not do that. However, some of them test run just about every new loco that comes out. My local shop started to REQUIRE that a loco be test run before leaving the shop. You can imagine how that came about. I'm one of the lucky few who doesn't have to follow that rule--I get to bring it back if there's a problem. Which there actually has never been. So far. Ed
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Post by richardthomasatal on Feb 9, 2023 16:56:33 GMT -8
I don't know where you are, but the stores around me allow the customer to at least see what is inside the box, and generally they allow customers to test run new locos. That's part of the customer service they provide for the higher than mail order price. You get to see, touch, taste, smell (yes I have a friend who actually does that though it seems strange to me too) new locos. Of course there are customers who test run and play with them at the store and then go buy it online somewhere, but most regular customers do not do that. However, some of them test run just about every new loco that comes out. My local shop started to REQUIRE that a loco be test run before leaving the shop. You can imagine how that came about. I'm one of the lucky few who doesn't have to follow that rule--I get to bring it back if there's a problem. Which there actually has never been. So far. Ed REQUIRE is a bit much and I think they would lose my business. But most of the time, I'd be excited to run it so I'm torn in my mind right now.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2023 17:46:35 GMT -8
I like to look at the locos in the store to make sure there aren't any defects that are a deal breaker for me, and the test track at my local store will not put an engine through its paces like my layout at home, so I test run them at home.
I've had two locos fail within a little over one week and returned them to the store I bought them from for a refund, no questions asked.
One was a Rapido RS-11. One was years ago, a Walthers Proto 2000 USRA 2-10-2.
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 10, 2023 0:25:02 GMT -8
Test run in store doesn't seem unreasonable. Saves everyone a hassle if one is bad.
The only ST items I had were those kits, and you could open the boxes. They just were a high (for the time) price point. Whether it was the availability elsewhere for less or just what led to it, who knows. I have about half a case of Atlas kits from last year with the same problem, absolute duds at 10% off list for new numbers on former Branchline tooling.
I have been shrink-wrapping kits with loose parts in the boxes because everyone seems to want to poke their fingers through like they're some 40 year old blue-box kit and not a brand new Accurail or similar item.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2023 6:42:26 GMT -8
The ST kits were not great sellers at my dealers (while they were ST dealers). They ended up on the bargain blowout sale table and lingered, in some cases for years. I just do not think that most people want to build kits anymore? Of course, maybe the kits didn't sell partly because the one store had a sign up explaining that they do not sell ST or ExactRail products anymore and cannot get them. (They do have an excellent inventory of Tangent items and apparently have no trouble with the relationship there).
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Post by riogrande on Feb 10, 2023 7:08:25 GMT -8
For a lot of people, hobby time is limited so that may be why the ST kits may be slower sellers in some markets. But they are offered because a lot of people complain about the high prices of many models these days, so companies are trying to have some budget line models/kits for that segment of the market.
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Post by hudsonyard on Feb 11, 2023 0:23:47 GMT -8
the only real brick and mortar places worth a damn here are horizon dealers heavy into RC car crap, so if you want to go buy anything in person you've got anything athearns done recently, and a dwindling stock of accurail kits (which I have picked over multiple times...) and random atlas or branchline cars still lingering on, not being able to find stuff you want the old fashioned way is just a reality. I've always bought stuff from ST directly or through lombard or yankee dabbler.
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 11, 2023 2:39:22 GMT -8
Kits were billed as the equivalent of a blue box, 5 minutes to build. I just think guys think kits should still be $10-ish because that's what the old blue box kits bring on average. The other issue with that first ST kit is it cloned an existing Atlas car that even on the most recent run was not that expensive. Plus there was a Details West version which Athearn picked up. You'd think they'd learn to do something different, but they managed to do it again with that auto rack, whether by accident or on purpose who knows. Atlas had to go to their factory and swap places in the production line with some other car to get theirs out first. Now they're doing it with this caboose. Even if I could get them I would probably pass unless I had customers wanting to preorder.
But on the blue box kits, I sell more of those than any other kit and a lot of the RTR stuff. No idea how Athearn sells the same tooling for so much more, improvements or not.
A friend of mine found a Horizon dealer who works out of his garage and does 99% RC car stuff. But I can get things like the replacement gears through him. And I did preorder one locomotive. If it keeps the lights on, so be it. The requirements to be a Horizon dealer are so high you almost have to sell the RC stuff to maintain the account. I don't know the first thing about most of that stuff, the last remote control car I had came from Radio Shack when I was like 10.
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Post by middledivision on Feb 11, 2023 8:23:45 GMT -8
^^^ The ST rivet counter rack with metal panels is about the same price or cheaper, than the Atlas version with plastic panels. I see piles of Atlas racks at the shops I frequent.
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Post by el3625 on Feb 11, 2023 19:21:12 GMT -8
The reason I think why there are still EL SD45's available at Scaletrains is because when they replaced the shells with the right color of gray recently, they had a limited quantity of more complete units made with the correct color of gray since they had to have the replacement shells produced anyhow. Since they were going to produce some complete units to go with the replacement shells, it would have been great if different numbers were used on the complete units. The SD45's are the only Scaletrains locomotives I own and I really like that the shells have nothing connected to the mechanism. Everything is on the chassis, wires, lights and whatever else. Having to work on one is nice when all you have to do is lift off the shell and not have wires to deal with.
Bruce
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 11, 2023 19:32:24 GMT -8
The ST kits were not great sellers at my dealers (while they were ST dealers). They ended up on the bargain blowout sale table and lingered, in some cases for years. I just do not think that most people want to build kits anymore? Of course, maybe the kits didn't sell partly because the one store had a sign up explaining that they do not sell ST or ExactRail products anymore and cannot get them. (They do have an excellent inventory of Tangent items and apparently have no trouble with the relationship there). Kits without directions or even exploded diagram should be hard to sell…referring to ST undec loco parts boxes… .
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 12, 2023 0:57:59 GMT -8
^^^ The ST rivet counter rack with metal panels is about the same price or cheaper, than the Atlas version with plastic panels. I see piles of Atlas racks at the shops I frequent. IIRC the cheap version was $65 and the detailed one more like $95. The Atlas car was $99.95. The shop buys theirs based on a percentage of that price, he can only mark them down so far before he loses money.
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Post by middledivision on Feb 13, 2023 8:59:31 GMT -8
The Operator version ST rack was $43 and the Rivet Counter was $73 with quantity discounts for both. That's direct with free shipping from ST with orders over $99.
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Post by sknorcal on Feb 13, 2023 9:38:46 GMT -8
There do appear to be a great number of the Atlas Racks still available--at least on-line. Most are listed in the $60-$100 dollar range. I seem to recall that the street price for the Atlas rack was around $75 when they were released. Pretty comparable to the ST price.
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Post by NYSW3614 on Feb 14, 2023 8:05:05 GMT -8
Re: SD45s (Biased SD45 fan here). Sorry to hear the second run wasn't as popular but wonder how the first run numbers compare. Of course, C&NW variants right off were a hit. Thought PC (and even Conrail) was a little bit of an odd choice early on given their longevity. I don't know enough about phases but would have thought MRL, WC, NYSW would have sold better.
I'd get a few NYSWs and consider an MRL. If they produce the L window variants variants I'm sure the SP guys will be happy (any others?) and I'd a consider a demo or two. And then there's the Fs.
Walthers' and BLIs runs don't help either but for after purchasing the bicentennial EL '45 ST is the way to go for me.
Joshua
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Post by TBird1958 on Feb 14, 2023 8:27:58 GMT -8
ST made some poor choices on the SD45 roadnames/variants, not a surprise that sales were "soft" to use their term, the SP unit being a good example. They leave a lot of money on the table. They should look at how Bowser handles a product release, they do a great job.
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Post by sd80mac on Feb 14, 2023 9:07:22 GMT -8
ST made some poor choices on the SD45 roadnames/variants, not a surprise that sales were "soft" to use their term, the SP unit being a good example. They leave a lot of money on the table. They should look at how Bowser handles a product release, they do a great job. I do wonder about that. Some of Scaletrain's road name choices do leave me scratching my heads. I get wanting to save some popular road names to spread out over other runs, but who would do 2 runs of SD45s and NOT include Wisconsin Central?
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Post by Baikal on Feb 14, 2023 9:20:03 GMT -8
ST made some poor choices on the SD45 roadnames/variants, not a surprise that sales were "soft" to use their term, the SP unit being a good example. They leave a lot of money on the table. They should look at how Bowser handles a product release, they do a great job. I do wonder about that. Some of Scaletrain's road name choices do leave me scratching my heads. I get wanting to save some popular road names to spread out over other runs, but who would do 2 runs of SD45s and NOT include Wisconsin Central? What paint shemes would be good sellers? Suggestions?
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Post by Baikal on Feb 14, 2023 9:40:25 GMT -8
Or Rio Grande? I would hazard that some of the slower selling SD45 road names were favorites for some people; just not enough. I don't know if Wisconsin Central is one of those. Over the past 25 years, I have noticed the D&RGW sells out pretty fast so and that seems to still be true. But I'm still waiting on a Genesis ICC caboose and ST SD45 and scratching my head. Rio Grande would outsell Wisconsin Central by a wide margin. 99% of modelers would agree. Many people (especially those who haven't traveled much or think the world simply must revolve around their turf) have a hard time separating personal favorites from reality. Not pointing fingers, WC is a fine road. It's just not in the same league as DRGW. Disclosure: I'm not a DRGW fan.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 14, 2023 9:44:18 GMT -8
[ but who would do 2 runs of SD45s and NOT include Wisconsin Central? That assumes Wisconsin Central would be a popular seller. I don't know if WC sells well or not. I have noticed over the last 25 years that Rio Grande sells out pretty consistently, which goes for Atlas GP40's, Atlas GP40-2's, Athearn tunnel motors and SD45's, and ScaleTrains tunnel motors. The Genesis D&RGW GP40-2 sold out so fast I had to jump on a laptop while in England to order mind before they were gone. They came in-stock while I was en-route by air via Paris. Anyway, with ScaleTrains, modern wide cabs seem to be king, so we'll have to wait. As for the ST GP30's, non of the pre-orders are sold out but I wonder if that is because they are doing late era versions and the demand may be for the classic era Rio Grande GP30. It seemed a puzzling decision but may have been motivated by personal preference of people at ST rather than what the customers wanted. Don't know.
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Post by gevohogger on Feb 14, 2023 10:23:05 GMT -8
Rio Grande would outsell Wisconsin Central by a wide margin. 99% of modelers would agree. Many people (especially those who haven't traveled much or think the world simply must revolve around their turf) have a hard time separating personal favorites from reality. Not pointing fingers, WC is a fine road. It's just not in the same league as DRGW. Disclosure: I'm not a DRGW fan. I'm not so sure. WC is one of those roads which had a popularity that reached far and wide beyond it's home territory. It was a railfan favorite and operated in the backyard of Kalmbach, Pentrex, Walthers, etc and got tons of attention in the hobby press. They had a ton of oddball older power, the kinds of stuff modellers love. Their SD45s in particular roamed far and wide on railroads coast to coast so I would think a lot of modellers who ordinarily wouldn't buy stuff that's not their railroad, would buy in this case. Outsell Rio Grande? Well, maybe not, but it would be closer than you probably think.
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Post by TBird1958 on Feb 14, 2023 10:33:33 GMT -8
I do wonder about that. Some of Scaletrain's road name choices do leave me scratching my heads. I get wanting to save some popular road names to spread out over other runs, but who would do 2 runs of SD45s and NOT include Wisconsin Central? What paint shemes would be good sellers? Suggestions?
In no particular order SP L window units GN in orange and green and Big Sky Blue UP, lots of lettering and slogans Burlington Frisco Rio Grande two schemes ATSF as delivered Clinchfield SCL D&H Northern Pacific WC SPSF I'm sure there's more and then there's the many rebuilt/leasing unit operators as well.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 14, 2023 10:43:49 GMT -8
I'm not so sure. WC is one of those roads which had a popularity that reached far and wide beyond it's home territory. It was a railfan favorite and operated in the backyard of Kalmbach, Pentrex, Walthers, etc and got tons of attention in the hobby press. They had a ton of oddball older power, the kinds of stuff modellers love. Their SD45s in particular roamed far and wide on railroads coast to coast so I would think a lot of modellers who ordinarily wouldn't buy stuff that's not their railroad, would buy in this case. Outsell Rio Grande? Well, maybe not, but it would be closer than you probably think. WC and Montana Rail Link both made use of older 2nd hand diesels including the SD45. And even the WC SD45's were seen crossing the Rockies in later years. Before I back dated, I considered getting a couple.
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Post by nstophat on Feb 14, 2023 11:14:11 GMT -8
The WC sd45's are rebuilt from Southern, NW, ATSF & BN SD45's, so SXT would be able to get some good mileage out of the WC road name.
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Post by tillamook on Feb 14, 2023 11:16:54 GMT -8
I do wonder about that. Some of Scaletrain's road name choices do leave me scratching my heads. I get wanting to save some popular road names to spread out over other runs, but who would do 2 runs of SD45s and NOT include Wisconsin Central? What paint shemes would be good sellers? Suggestions?
Great Northern #400. Oh, yes, and Portland & Western.
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