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Post by csxt8400 on Feb 15, 2023 11:12:44 GMT -8
Not that this means much, but noticed nobody brought up this rather evident disparity.
Final WC SD45 roster-
7495-7496, 6497, 7498-7502, 6503, 7504-7515, 6516, 7517-7520, 6521, 7522-7528, 6529, 7530-7532, 6533.
6550, 7551, 6552-6553, 7554, 6555-6556.
6579, 7580-7581, 6582-6584, 7585, 6586-6588, 7589, 6590-6591, 7592, 6593-6605, 7606, 6607-6636, 7637-7638, 6639-6642.
That's over 100 V20's.
Rio Grande had 5315-5340, many getting traded away by the mid 90's with a few stragglers.
Common routes to see WC SD45's- Everywhere in Chicago. Conrail (CSX and NS continued) to Elkhart, Enola, Altoona, Buffalo, Selkirk. NS to Fort Wayne and Cincinnati. CSX to Garrett IN, Cincinnati, Willard, Cumberland, Nashville, Birmingham. As stated, with the SP Geneva contract and mostly prior to the Dash 9's and AC44's, it was not unusual to see a trainset with WC power out West.
Even into the CN era the WC 45's were sent out for HP payback to the CSX and NS consistently, and to a lesser extent the UP and BNSF. I have shots of a BNSF stack train in 2006 with a B40-8W leading WC 7498 (ex Frisco) and BNSF 6327 (SDP40). By probably 1996-97, they roamed in ways I think those with lesser interest underestimate.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 15, 2023 11:28:15 GMT -8
All of that is interesting to be sure, but it's the sales figures that the model companies are looking at.
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Post by gevohogger on Feb 15, 2023 11:53:21 GMT -8
All of that is interesting to be sure, but it's the sales figures that the model companies are looking at. Relax, breathe easy for a moment. No one is taking away anything from the greatness that is the Rio Grande Railroad! |
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Post by riogrande on Feb 15, 2023 11:55:25 GMT -8
All of that is interesting to be sure, but it's the sales figures that the model companies are looking at. Relax, breathe easy for a moment. No one is taking away anything from the greatness that is the Rio Grande Railroad! I won't argue about greatness! |
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Post by csxt8400 on Feb 15, 2023 11:59:09 GMT -8
I really have faith that the WC 45's, if done in their later life, would give everything but SP, ATSF, and BN a run for their money. This idea that WC doesn't sell is incorrect, and I really don't know where the idea comes from. They weren't some backwater podunk wooden axle railroad, that would be the Wisconsin & Southern.
As an aside, sometimes we already have what we need. Some people with a plethora of IMRC 4750's didn't feel the need to buy better Tangent versions. While WC 45's have been produced, there has never been a satisfying model from an artwork perspective. And ironically, the KATO version from the early 2000's (6677) was probably the best rendition. The Proto and Walthers models have always botched a few things, but overall they are next in line. The Athearn ones of the mid latter 2000's had nice color but the lettering and most artwork were poor. I would surmise, to my untrained eye admittedly, that the decals and detail parts are and have been better for DRGW modelers, so will TBird and others ditch their tricked out power for "new thing" ?
What an SXT SD45 would bring to life on the later units would increase the impulse buys. Small details like the all weather windows that they have now tooled for the next run of SDL39's are huge. These were never done before on a production model. Adding Q-Tron to the axles, another part never done. The correct ditchlights that they tooled for the SDL39's, another overlooked and never offered piece of the puzzle. Think of how important to a DRGW fan the proper headlight, rerail frog, plow, and numberboard font is. It's the same thing. Adding in the possibility of the replacement cab doors (fridge doors) and the model will pop in ways never before. Athearn Genesis GP38-2/GP40-2's had that replacement fridge door tooling, and when utilized on some BNSF, UP, and CP models it drives the nail perfectly. All of this could be possible for the first time for die hard WC fans, and those that model the radiating Class 1's out of Chicago.
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 15, 2023 13:34:51 GMT -8
I would think CEFX blue leasers would also sell. Those were everywhere for a number of years, and could be done from various existing tooling - SP units with lights blanked for instance. Even Finger Lakes Railway leased a couple for a time.
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Post by Baikal on Feb 15, 2023 13:41:14 GMT -8
Not that this means much, but noticed nobody brought up this rather evident disparity. Final WC SD45 roster- 7495-7496, 6497, 7498-7502, 6503, 7504-7515, 6516, 7517-7520, 6521, 7522-7528, 6529, 7530-7532, 6533. 6550, 7551, 6552-6553, 7554, 6555-6556. 6579, 7580-7581, 6582-6584, 7585, 6586-6588, 7589, 6590-6591, 7592, 6593-6605, 7606, 6607-6636, 7637-7638, 6639-6642. That's over 100 V20's. Rio Grande had 5315-5340, many getting traded away by the mid 90's with a few stragglers. Common routes to see WC SD45's- Everywhere in Chicago. Conrail (CSX and NS continued) to Elkhart, Enola, Altoona, Buffalo, Selkirk. NS to Fort Wayne and Cincinnati. CSX to Garrett IN, Cincinnati, Willard, Cumberland, Nashville, Birmingham. As stated, with the SP Geneva contract and mostly prior to the Dash 9's and AC44's, it was not unusual to see a trainset with WC power out West. Even into the CN era the WC 45's were sent out for HP payback to the CSX and NS consistently, and to a lesser extent the UP and BNSF. I have shots of a BNSF stack train in 2006 with a B40-8W leading WC 7498 (ex Frisco) and BNSF 6327 (SDP40). By probably 1996-97, they roamed in ways I think those with lesser interest underestimate.
During the 70s & 80s DGRW SD45s visited Los Angeles frequently. There was at least one in SoCal probably more than half of the time. Usually bringing coal to Kaiser Fontana steel mill, but they'd show up on misc. UP trains. They came in on SP, ATSF (rare), and UP (common), depending on the period.
I've always lived in SoCal except about 8 years scattered between 1975 - 2011. I've never seen a WC unit anywhere in SoCal. Not saying it didn't happen later- but never common like DRGW power. Also DRGW T-2s and Geeps less frequently.
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Post by sd80mac on Feb 15, 2023 13:43:30 GMT -8
I would think CEFX blue leasers would also sell. Those were everywhere for a number of years, and could be done from various existing tooling - SP units with lights blanked for instance. Even Finger Lakes Railway leased a couple for a time. 100%. Anyone modeling just about anything in the last 20 years could make an excuse for a CEFX Bluebird. |
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Post by 690 on Feb 15, 2023 13:49:19 GMT -8
flic.kr/p/JXyiWxThere’s a shot of WC power on Tennessee Pass, and that wasn’t an infrequent occurrence. I think you’re greatly underestimating how much the WC SD45 fleet got around the country. I’ve seen pictures of them in California, in Georgia, Texas, New Hampshire. They got around.
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Post by TBird1958 on Feb 15, 2023 14:00:28 GMT -8
I really have faith that the WC 45's, if done in their later life, would give everything but SP, ATSF, and BN a run for their money. This idea that WC doesn't sell is incorrect, and I really don't know where the idea comes from. They weren't some backwater podunk wooden axle railroad, that would be the Wisconsin & Southern. As an aside, sometimes we already have what we need. Some people with a plethora of IMRC 4750's didn't feel the need to buy better Tangent versions. While WC 45's have been produced, there has never been a satisfying model from an artwork perspective. And ironically, the KATO version from the early 2000's (6677) was probably the best rendition. The Proto and Walthers models have always botched a few things, but overall they are next in line. The Athearn ones of the mid latter 2000's had nice color but the lettering and most artwork were poor. I would surmise, to my untrained eye admittedly, that the decals and detail parts are and have been better for DRGW modelers, so will TBird and others ditch their tricked out power for "new thing" ? What an SXT SD45 would bring to life on the later units would increase the impulse buys. Small details like the all weather windows that they have now tooled for the next run of SDL39's are huge. These were never done before on a production model. Adding Q-Tron to the axles, another part never done. The correct ditchlights that they tooled for the SDL39's, another overlooked and never offered piece of the puzzle. Think of how important to a DRGW fan the proper headlight, rerail frog, plow, and numberboard font is. It's the same thing. Adding in the possibility of the replacement cab doors (fridge doors) and the model will pop in ways never before. Athearn Genesis GP38-2/GP40-2's had that replacement fridge door tooling, and when utilized on some BNSF, UP, and CP models it drives the nail perfectly. All of this could be possible for the first time for die hard WC fans, and those that model the radiating Class 1's out of Chicago. FWIW if ST does do some Rio Grande SD45s that are correct for the time I model, yes I'd buy them even though I already have at least 10. I hope they do as generally they make nice models but as has been touched on, ST has a habit of making some odd choices about their releases. Regarding WC45s I'm certain they'd sell really well if done correctly - The bigger picture is that they could have done either of these road names and many others quite sometime ago and haven't. |
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Post by riogrande on Feb 15, 2023 14:05:45 GMT -8
I really have faith that the WC 45's, if done in their later life, would give everything but SP, ATSF, and BN a run for their money. This idea that WC doesn't sell is incorrect, and I really don't know where the idea comes from. They weren't some backwater podunk wooden axle railroad, that would be the Wisconsin & Southern. I'm not sure if anyone said that WC doesn't sell; or where did someone say that? In the end it's up to model makers to figure out and make what they think will sell. For quite some time now, IMRC and Tangent both have been making 4750's, Tangents 4750's have sold very well. It's only the latest runs that have lingered in stock for an unusually long time. Tangent does make the definitive 4750. Someone posted some close-up photos on Train Orders of them side by side. Other than a few road names, the D&RGW didn't seem to carry a lot of 4750's but my fleet has mostly Tangent but I still have a few IMRC's too. Regarding SD45's. I have some Athearns. The D&RGW lettering and paint looks pretty good and they have some matching prototype features, such as correct side frames, nose signal light etc. They still have the rear hood which heritage goes back to the tooling acquired from, was it Rail Power? The door latch details aren't the best. I think the ScaleTrains D&RGW SD45 would be very nice, as well as an SP SD45 with the L-windshield. They'd probably have to run more than once for D&RGW due to the delivery differences. Most of the early delivery SD45's had low mount brake cylinders which were found to be prone to damage from derailments. The second order came with high mount brake cylinders. They were delivered with small heralds, but some were quickly repainted in large herald: #5315, 5322, 5326, 5327, 5328, 5329, 5331, 5334, 5336, 5337, 5338 and 5340, from memory. |
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Post by csxt8400 on Feb 15, 2023 15:04:24 GMT -8
I really have faith that the WC 45's, if done in their later life, would give everything but SP, ATSF, and BN a run for their money. This idea that WC doesn't sell is incorrect, and I really don't know where the idea comes from. They weren't some backwater podunk wooden axle railroad, that would be the Wisconsin & Southern. As an aside, sometimes we already have what we need. Some people with a plethora of IMRC 4750's didn't feel the need to buy better Tangent versions. While WC 45's have been produced, there has never been a satisfying model from an artwork perspective. And ironically, the KATO version from the early 2000's (6677) was probably the best rendition. The Proto and Walthers models have always botched a few things, but overall they are next in line. The Athearn ones of the mid latter 2000's had nice color but the lettering and most artwork were poor. I would surmise, to my untrained eye admittedly, that the decals and detail parts are and have been better for DRGW modelers, so will TBird and others ditch their tricked out power for "new thing" ? What an SXT SD45 would bring to life on the later units would increase the impulse buys. Small details like the all weather windows that they have now tooled for the next run of SDL39's are huge. These were never done before on a production model. Adding Q-Tron to the axles, another part never done. The correct ditchlights that they tooled for the SDL39's, another overlooked and never offered piece of the puzzle. Think of how important to a DRGW fan the proper headlight, rerail frog, plow, and numberboard font is. It's the same thing. Adding in the possibility of the replacement cab doors (fridge doors) and the model will pop in ways never before. Athearn Genesis GP38-2/GP40-2's had that replacement fridge door tooling, and when utilized on some BNSF, UP, and CP models it drives the nail perfectly. All of this could be possible for the first time for die hard WC fans, and those that model the radiating Class 1's out of Chicago. FWIW if ST does do some Rio Grande SD45s that are correct for the time I model, yes I'd buy them even though I already have at least 10. I hope they do as generally they make nice models but as has been touched on, ST has a habit of making some odd choices about their releases. Regarding WC45s I'm certain they'd sell really well if done correctly - The bigger picture is that they could have done either of these road names and many others quite sometime ago and haven't. As I figured you would, there are many of us who couldn't say no to our focus no matter how many we already have. I know I tend to be guilty of that, thought I must say my large scope of interest (Chicago circa 99-01) tends to weigh on me, and as the boxes pile up I am starting to ask myself what I'm really trying to accomplish. That said, if I don't broker a special run of WC SD45's with SXT, I will buy all versions and then some to customize. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 15, 2023 17:06:33 GMT -8
I doubt I will ever buy another Intermountain 4750. The Tangent kicks their butt.
Beyond that, I have the feeling that Dave Lehlbach REALLY hates to be "embarrassed". if ya know what I mean. I'm not to thrilled to be there, either!
Intermountain? Huhhhhh.........
I doubt Intermountain will EVER fix their UP 4750 lettering.
However. Their cab forward may well be a masterpiece. Should you folks think I love to dump on manufacturers.
I bought me one of the later runs, where Intermountain (apparently) finally got their act together. Thing is, it's got so much detail that you almost can't touch it. THAT IS GOOD. THAT IS GREAT!!!! However. I now have to figure out a way to transport it to Free-mo setups. And get it on the layout. Without breaking it.
Imagine. A locomotive so well detailed that you can't touch it.
Interesting!
Ed
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 15, 2023 17:34:24 GMT -8
The guy that invents a deal that you can run the engine into, then clamp down and carry away, would make a small fortune.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 15, 2023 17:57:13 GMT -8
The guy that invents a deal that you can run the engine into, then clamp down and carry away, would make a small fortune. Still waiting for the small fortune. About 50 years ago (how time flies when yer havin fun), I did just that. I built me a little industrial switcher, with an assortment of railings and such. I wanted to make sure it wasn't damaged if I ever decided to transport it. I drilled and tapped a hole in the bottom, and I put it inside a little plastic box, with some track. It's been in that box ever since. Moving a little closer to now, I put my Intermountain 4-8-8-2 on some track that's on an "insert" that I can move over to my layout. Or over to a special Free-mo module. The big difference is that the older one is inside a plastic box that you can shake all day without damaging the model. Yet it can still run. The Cab Forward isn't too interested in shake-and-bake, but it does sit on a "cartridge" (I guess) which can be inserted in a Free-mo module. Should I ever get my ass in gear. My To-Do list includes building a Free-mo module that will accept my cartridges for loading and unloading. I've already got one on my home layout that has worked. Ed |
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Post by hudsonyard on Feb 15, 2023 18:01:44 GMT -8
The guy that invents a deal that you can run the engine into, then clamp down and carry away, would make a small fortune.
earlier incarnation of my clubs layout had a track in rear staging that was compatible with these carrying cases for brass locomotives, plug in the case, remove the slide in door at one end and power transfers into the case and the locomotive can move. a local modeler made them and sold dozens, the mounting plate on the layout was constantly out of gauge and was eventually removed.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 15, 2023 18:08:06 GMT -8
So no one thought it worthwhile to re-do the "mounting plate" to make it work. Even though "a local modeler made them [carrying cses] and sold dozens".
Seems like there's more to the story.
A valiant attempt, though!
Ed
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Post by columbusrrfan on Feb 15, 2023 18:27:20 GMT -8
flic.kr/p/JXyiWxThere’s a shot of WC power on Tennessee Pass, and that wasn’t an infrequent occurrence. I think you’re greatly underestimating how much the WC SD45 fleet got around the country. I’ve seen pictures of them in California, in Georgia, Texas, New Hampshire. They got around. Fully agree on how common they were in places other than Wisconsin. Decided to do a quick check on photo locations on-line. George Elwood's Fallen Flags has WC SD45's shot in 13 U.S. States and 2 Canadian Provinces. States were IL, WI, IN, MN, VA, MI, PA, OH, MO, MD, TN, NY, and CA ( West Colton and San Bernardino). Canadian Provinces were Ontario and Quebec. Railpictures.net adds an additional 14 states- AZ, AR, CO, GA, IA, KY, MA, MS, NJ, NC, OK, TX, UT, and WV. I'm sure there are a few more. Bring 'em on! |
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Post by hudsonyard on Feb 15, 2023 19:59:07 GMT -8
So no one thought it worthwhile to re-do the "mounting plate" to make it work. Even though "a local modeler made them [carrying cses] and sold dozens". Seems like there's more to the story. A valiant attempt, though! Ed
It was 15+ years ago, but it became mired in club politics, like many things did back then. guy who made them was a retired grumman machinist and they cost a fair amount of $$$, but he would make them to your specifications. the political temperature of the place has improved, the new railroad has no more member storage tracks in staging (thank god)
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Post by csxt8400 on Feb 15, 2023 20:14:39 GMT -8
Many of you that enjoy RR videos will remember SEARAILS or something to that effect. Brian Morgan and another fella did videography mainly in Georgia and Alabama, but ventured further plenty. They filmed from the late 90's up into the 2000's, shooting mainly CSX, NS, and KCS stuff. The NS and CSX ran so much WC power that they made a DVD about it. Other internet names like William Davis Jr, David Stewart, etc went out in droves as well capturing this power on the Rincon, GA coke trains, the tac trains to Fairfield Works, and other regular manifest trains. Here is a short list of topical links for those interested: www.flickr.com/photos/145683096@N07/49171116938www.flickr.com/photos/145683096@N07/52124862518 |
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Post by locochris on Feb 15, 2023 20:44:46 GMT -8
However. Their cab forward may well be a masterpiece. Should you folks think I love to dump on manufacturers. I bought me one of the later runs, where Intermountain (apparently) finally got their act together. Thing is, it's got so much detail that you almost can't touch it. THAT IS GOOD. THAT IS GREAT!!!! However. I now have to figure out a way to transport it to Free-mo setups. And get it on the layout. Without breaking it. Imagine. A locomotive so well detailed that you can't touch it. Interesting! Ed When was the last time they did a run of those cab forwards? |
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Post by gevohogger on Feb 16, 2023 5:06:09 GMT -8
I bought me one of the later runs, where Intermountain (apparently) finally got their act together. Thing is, it's got so much detail that you almost can't touch it. THAT IS GOOD. THAT IS GREAT!!!! However. I now have to figure out a way to transport it to Free-mo setups. And get it on the layout. Without breaking it. Imagine. A locomotive so well detailed that you can't touch it. Sounds like the usual Intermountain brittle plastic detail parts. And it pains me to be such a downer, since like you said it's a gorgeous model! I'd get one too if I could find a justification for it. |
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Post by riogrande on Feb 16, 2023 5:22:54 GMT -8
My justification is, I wanted to have at least one steam engine, and since I spent my teens and twenties in SP land (northern California) and SP is among my top 2 favorites, the Cab Forward seemed to fit the bill. I purchased one from the 3rd run a few years ago. But I'm the same with say those beautiful red Canadian SD30C engines. They are really gorgeous but I can't justify any.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2023 9:11:56 GMT -8
lol.
I've spent the better part of my adult life, 33 years, trying to justify all manner of trains that I like, because I really do like just about everything including most pre-wide cab diesels, and most steam especially big articulateds: my favorites being the DRGW Class L-107 USRA copy 2-8-8-2, and the Western Pacific 4-6-6-4, which was rarely photographed as most stearm photographers did not venture more than 15 miles west of Salt Lake City into that desert to even be able to see them run.
Finally, I went back to what I always wanted as a kid during the early and mid-1970's (but was not available then): blue and yellow warbonnet diesels. To the best of my knowledge, it was well into the 1980's before Athearn released their first blue and yellow warbonnet diesel. It was the GP38-2, which was brand new about the time of the SPSF merger. Prior to that my recollection is that all Santa Fe Athearn freight diesels were blue and yellow "bookend" or "pinstripe" scheme.
Now return to topic:
ST if you are reading this far, we need a good regular 88" nose rivet counter ATSF SD40-2. There's been a couple runs of snoots...
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 16, 2023 12:18:38 GMT -8
I would think CEFX blue leasers would also sell. Those were everywhere for a number of years, and could be done from various existing tooling - SP units with lights blanked for instance. Even Finger Lakes Railway leased a couple for a time. If I recall correctly, surely to be corrected if not, weren’t some of the lease units actually rebuilt and labeled as SD40-? In the SD45 body..? |
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Post by gevohogger on Feb 16, 2023 12:27:40 GMT -8
I would think CEFX blue leasers would also sell. Those were everywhere for a number of years, and could be done from various existing tooling - SP units with lights blanked for instance. Even Finger Lakes Railway leased a couple for a time. If I recall correctly, surely to be corrected if not, weren’t some of the lease units actually rebuilt and labeled as SD40-? In the SD45 body..? I think you're right. There's probably various small detail differences, but I'm sure they're not a deal breaker to having one made in HO. |
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Post by riogrande on Feb 16, 2023 13:19:32 GMT -8
Some of the SD45's were labeled SD40M, at least some SP had in the later years.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 16, 2023 13:23:52 GMT -8
My understanding is that many SD45, SDP45, SDFP45, and SD45-2 carbody diesels had the 20 cylinder prime movers replaced with 16 cylinder 645 engines (for improved fuel economy), and particularly, anything older than -2 electronics was typically also upgraded to -2 electronics at the same time. I think various railroads classify these engines differently, some as SD40-2's perhaps some as SD40-3's, etc.
So an "SD40-2" does not have to be an actual SD40-2 body, but could be any of the above, as well as an upgraded/rebuilt SD40, or on SP/UP an "SD40M-2".
To even further muddy the water, CP has/had SD40-3's that are different yet again (new cabs, etc.)
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Post by 690 on Feb 16, 2023 13:43:53 GMT -8
CP doesn’t have any SD40-3s with new cabs. CSX and NS have been done SD40-3 rebuilds with their own cab designs, but CP’s SD40-3 are externally the same as a normal SD40-2.
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Post by cemr5396 on Feb 16, 2023 13:46:52 GMT -8
CP had several ex SP and DRGW SD45s that were rebuilt by Morrison-Knudsen as mechanically identical to SD40-2s, they called them SD40M-2s. CP 5493-5498.
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