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Post by blhs569 on Sept 26, 2023 14:38:32 GMT -8
There's a on-line dealer that is offering GP7s by both Athearn Genesis & Walthers Proto with DCC & sound for the exact same price to the penny. I don't own any Walthers Proto locomotives. Is Walthers Proto really considered on par with Athearn Genesis? |
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Post by 12bridge on Sept 26, 2023 14:50:39 GMT -8
As far as I am concerned, the Walthers Proto is the far better shell. It does not have those huge gaps between all the doors like the Athearn. The Proto helical is a fantastic drive.
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Post by cera2254 on Sept 26, 2023 14:55:09 GMT -8
As much as I do like Genesis stuff, I do think the proto GP7/9 is still better. There’s just something about the cab that doesn’t look “right” to me. Both drives are good, I don’t know that one edges out the other their.
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Post by cemr5396 on Sept 26, 2023 14:56:59 GMT -8
As far as I am concerned, the Walthers Proto is the far better shell. It does not have those huge gaps between all the doors like the Athearn. The Proto helical is a fantastic drive. Proto shell is nice but everything attached to it is better on the Genesis one. More and better details. The Protos seem a bit generic by comparison. That being said, it's not too hard to make the Protos look just as good with a little work. I'm building two Proto undecs right now and they have been a pleasure to work on. |
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Post by 12bridge on Sept 26, 2023 15:03:26 GMT -8
As far as I am concerned, the Walthers Proto is the far better shell. It does not have those huge gaps between all the doors like the Athearn. The Proto helical is a fantastic drive. Proto shell is nice but everything attached to it is better on the Genesis one. More and better details. The Protos seem a bit generic by comparison. That being said, it's not too hard to make the Protos look just as good with a little work. I'm building two Proto undecs right now and they have been a pleasure to work on. I do like the Genesis fuel and air tank detail, but that shell is just off. You can throw all the detail parts in the world at it, but its still off looking to me. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 26, 2023 15:30:18 GMT -8
I just unloaded one of my P2K UP GP7's, 'cause it's got the incorrect "fat" fuel tank. Which is something Walthers is still doing on their UP Geeps.
Ed
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Post by markfj on Sept 26, 2023 15:39:00 GMT -8
This is a bit of a “been there, done that” topic that has been covered before here and on other forums. There seems to be a 50/50 split among those who like the Proto shell and those that prefer the Genesis one. Unless someone decides to tool a new GP7/9 shell, which is highly unlikely, we’ll be stuck with these two offerings for a while.
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Post by Baikal on Sept 26, 2023 16:19:52 GMT -8
Proto shell is nice but everything attached to it is better on the Genesis one. More and better details. The Protos seem a bit generic by comparison. That being said, it's not too hard to make the Protos look just as good with a little work. I'm building two Proto undecs right now and they have been a pleasure to work on. I do like the Genesis fuel and air tank detail, but that shell is just off. You can throw all the detail parts in the world at it, but its still off looking to me.
There's something wrong around the Genesis cab roof, cab sides, and/or windows. Cab roof radius? Windows too big? Not sure...
I know the 1st iteration of the Genesis early GPs needed to be re-done. Was the roof-side curvature off? Whatever it was it was pretty bad and to my eye the proportions are still not ok. Every time I see one in the model press it jumps out. I haven't measured the Genesis model & compared it to the prototype.
The Walthers / Proto GPs looks right even if some things aren't.
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Post by win70rob on Sept 26, 2023 16:23:45 GMT -8
I like both and own both. I think both models look good and found faults with both models. I feel as if the Proto ones are just too generic and a bit overpriced for being so generic. I purchased the Walthers Proto Bangor & Aroostook GP9 and the only upgrade was the addition of the nose bell, 1 addition grab iron, and an air horn, other than that, pretty much the same as the old life like proto minus the updated mechanism, I wish the Genesis models had a little more weigh. Overall they are both nice models to me. I do like the older proto models that allowed you to open the cab doors, seemed to add a little more realism as they did not have air conditioned cabs in the 50s and 60s and many pictures show the front door open on hot summer days. This is all my personal opinion and either model to me is a good addition to the fleet
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Post by cpr4200 on Sept 26, 2023 16:40:20 GMT -8
IIRC, at first the Genesis Geeps were based on the old Front Range shells, which were not very well proportioned. Don't know if the same molds were used as the basis of the later Genesis Geeps, but the proportions are still off.
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Post by tom on Sept 26, 2023 16:57:34 GMT -8
I do not have a Proto GP7 but I do have their GP9. I prefer the Walthers Proto over the Athearn geep because the Proto shell is in my opinion proportioned just right. It also runs better than the Genesis GP9 that I no longer have. I like working starting with undecs and Walthers makes those too. This is my Proto GP9 that I added a couple of details and then painted and lettered it.  The Genesis model has better detailed fans but I am Ok with the Proto ones. |
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Post by lvrr325 on Sept 26, 2023 18:54:19 GMT -8
I just unloaded one of my P2K UP GP7's, 'cause it's got the incorrect "fat" fuel tank. Which is something Walthers is still doing on their UP Geeps. Ed The tank is a snap on part, surely someone can 3d print correct ones. Even if you need to mill the frame to make it fit. |
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Post by hudsonyard on Sept 26, 2023 18:59:26 GMT -8
echoing the statement that the proto geeps just look "right" theres something uncanny about the athearns, proportions or otherwise. you can spot one on a layout from 20 feet away, it's troubling to me when a basic plain model like that jumps out at you.
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Post by locochris on Sept 26, 2023 18:59:29 GMT -8
To the OP: I would just buy whichever road name or era fits you better and not worry about if it is Proto or Genesis. As you can see, there is definitely a split on opinion. I have a Proto phase 2 UP GP9 from the 70s era and some Genesis phase 3 UP GP9's from the 50s/60s era, and I like them both.
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Post by gevohogger on Sept 27, 2023 4:06:27 GMT -8
I prefer the Protos also. Actually, all my Protos are pre-Walthers, but I don't think that makes a difference. The Walthers drive is probably better than the old Life Like Proto drive.
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Post by fishbelly on Sept 27, 2023 4:34:30 GMT -8
I also prefer the Walther's/ Proto early GP's. The Athearn model of the GP7 thru 18 just do not have the right look to them. The roof curvature looks off which makes the radiators look wrong. The whole model just looks wrong or off a bit. Now the Athearn frame, fuel tank and air reservoirs are much better than the proto. I still prefer the Proto. I have only one issue with the proto and that is the shallow steps. I would much rather they simply did solid full depth steps.
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Post by craigz on Sept 27, 2023 6:56:31 GMT -8
I'm with the posters that say the Genesis looks....off. Its proportions are wonky. I'm not sure it's just one thing but rather a combination of things that combine to make it look off. The Walthers helical drive in the Proto is a better running drive in my estimation. It's very smooth.
As a PC modeler my thoughts are to keep my Genesis GP9Bs, but eventually move the A units. If I can scare up Proto drives and make them fit under the B shells, that's even better.
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Post by Baikal on Sept 27, 2023 8:07:20 GMT -8
I'm with the posters that say the Genesis looks....off. Its proportions are wonky. I'm not sure it's just one thing but rather a combination of things that combine to make it look off. The Walthers helical drive in the Proto is a better running drive in my estimation. It's very smooth. As a PC modeler my thoughts are to keep my Genesis GP9Bs, but eventually move the A units. If I can scare up Proto drives and make them fit under the B shells, that's even better.
The gaps around the hood doors on the Genesis B unit don't match each other. The front end door gaps look like the olde 1970s Atlas GP40 style, too wide & deep.
Is the gap at the bottom of the "cab" area just due to the part not being fully seated?
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Post by fishbelly on Sept 27, 2023 9:25:49 GMT -8
Love those fan tops too.
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Post by sd80mac on Sept 27, 2023 14:30:06 GMT -8
Throw my hat into the Walthers/Proto ring. I own several Protos and several Genesis at this point, and as others have said, something is "off" about the Genesis ones. They sit higher than the Protos and have windows that appear to be too big. Maybe the Athearn is right and the Proto is wrong? Maybe, but I doubt it.
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Post by prr 4467 on Sept 27, 2023 15:34:48 GMT -8
The Athearn Genesis GP7/9 units that have small fuel tanks can be very delicate to handle, because the space between the fuel tank and the body skirting is big and it's then EASY to break the skirting loose. That and Athearn's leaning handrails have been my biggest issues. Also, within the last year I have purchased Athearn Genesis units including but not limited to these GP7 and GP9 models, and during break-in runs they have had some issues with axle bearing squeal. I've taken them apart and lubricated everything (possibly too much) but continue to get what I now believe to be axle bearing squeal, both on Genesis 4-axle GP38-2 units (I had 3) and on the GP-7/9's (2 all units in the last year). Not squeal from every unit but about half and I ran the crap out of them with lubrication and could not always get the sounds to go away!
Although I have personally preferred Athearn diesels for many years going back into the late 1970's, and have bought many of them, I must agree that the Walthers/Proto drive mechanisms now seem to be better: smoother and quieter than ALL of this year's Athearns (besides the 5 Geeps I've purchased a total of 9 SD-70 and SD-70ACe models during 2023). Walthers/Proto hasn't had many units I needed to have this year, but all the ones I've tested in stores recently have run very well, cold, un-broken-in right out of the box. I even like the way the Walthers Mainline SD50, SD60, etc. modern units run. They for me always run very smoothly (I just usually want a little better than Mainline level of detail).
I have to say I'm not so happy with the way the Genesis diesels run and light and make sound.
I do not like Loksound as much due to too many decoder failures in recent locos that I have owned. However, ScaleTrains and Bowser are both beating Genesis with their dcc/sound/LED lights on recent (2022-built and 2023-built) models. The light pickups in the Genesis SD70ACe units do not always make contact with the metal plates on the inside of the body roof. This means all those neat new LED class lights on the Athearn's will NOT work or definitely NOT consistently.
Also the folks at Bowser had significant complaints regarding the Tsunami decoders (still used in Genesis diesels) and have completely switched away from them in all their models now. One major complaint is that the ESU Loksound decoders will index the engine idle to the speed steps, whereas Tsunami 2 decoders simply do not do that nearly as well. (You can program them to a certain extent based upon your average operational track voltage over a section of your layout. However, the Loksound 5 decoders simply outperform the Genesis Tsunami 2 units--and this is coming from me who hates dcc in general but wants all the lighting functions and flashing beacons, etc.).
So for me, if I'm buying a GP7 or GP9, I'd lean toward Walthers Proto over the very delicate Athearn (which though highly detailed, not all the details are well installed). I'd rather have a few less details but quality assembly, painting etc.
If I wanted more of the Walthers Mainline diesels--they are an excellent value for the money, and the Chessie units are particularly tempting.
My actual loco roster, including my son's, is dominated by ScaleTrains Gevos and Bowser SD40-2's, with other Bowser units like Alcos, and the relatively few Athearn SD70/SD70ACe units. The Athearns are getting the least run time, as the others seem to be just more fun for us to play with.
As always, YMMV.
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Post by cemr5396 on Sept 27, 2023 19:10:16 GMT -8
One major complaint is that the ESU Loksound decoders will index the engine idle to the speed steps, whereas Tsunami 2 decoders simply do not do that nearly as well. (You can program them to a certain extent based upon your average operational track voltage over a section of your layout. I have read and re-read this statement several times and still have no idea what you are talking about. Are you referring to something where for every 'x' speed steps the throttle will increase by one notch? Because if so Tsunami decoders (both the original and the TSU2s) absolutely DO do that. In fact, that is how they determine which notch the engine sounds should be in by default. Anyone who says they can't or don't do that frankly has no idea what they are talking about. |
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Post by prr 4467 on Sept 27, 2023 20:59:00 GMT -8
I have new Athearn T2 locos here on hand that DO NOT notch up with increased throttle/speed steps nearly as well as the Loksound 5 units do.
This is exactly why I said YMMV above. Your mileage may vary.
If somebody is going to ask me which loco I wish to buy, I'm going to put Walthers Proto, ScaleTrains, and Bowser over the Athearn at this point. Athearn makes good locos, generally, but the assembly QA/QC is not always what it should be, and for me, this year, has not matched up to the other three.
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Post by cera2254 on Sept 28, 2023 5:31:41 GMT -8
CEMR I am confused too. I believe you can adjust how many steps there are between throttle notches. Or are you talking about the actual sound files of the transitions between notches? I don’t think that has anything to do with track voltage. I know that you can adjust the Tsunamis to keep the engine at idle in Notch 1, which I believe is prototypical but IIRC they don’t come that way by default.
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Post by win70rob on Sept 28, 2023 11:54:06 GMT -8
I feel that this has turned into a Ford vs Chevy thing. I own many Genesis GP9/GP7s and 9 Proto 2000 GP9/GP7s, I feel anyone could find a flaw with any model if they look hard enough, I also feel that with all the newer and newer ready to roll from all manufacturers that many have lost touch with the art of actually being a modeler and just want to go from the box to the layout. Both units look good to me. Really all just gonna be personal preference
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mdq
Full Member
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Post by mdq on Sept 28, 2023 13:06:14 GMT -8
I prefer the Protos also. Actually, all my Protos are pre-Walthers, but I don't think that makes a difference. The Walthers drive is probably better than the old Life Like Proto drive.
Same |
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wsor
Full Member
The Route of the Ruptured Duck
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Post by wsor on Sept 28, 2023 18:44:13 GMT -8
I also prefer the Walthers GPs. The Athearn shell just has some basic proportions that look off. It was mentioned somewhere (here?) that the Athearn tooling seemed to replicate the Front Range tooling, like they both used the same wrong information.
Walthers Mainline drives do fit under older Walthers and Life-Like shells. The light pipes or headlight stands need some modifications, but the frame is essentially the same. This gets you the helical drive, decent truck sideframes, and non-warped fuel tanks, attached by a screw.
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mdq
Full Member
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Post by mdq on Oct 2, 2023 4:51:59 GMT -8
This guy makes a good point too:
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Oct 4, 2023 2:11:22 GMT -8
This is a bit of a “been there, done that” topic that has been covered before here and on other forums. There seems to be a 50/50 split among those who like the Proto shell and those that prefer the Genesis one. Unless someone decides to tool a new GP7/9 shell, which is highly unlikely, we’ll be stuck with these two offerings for a while. Going through the responses here, the overwhelming majority prefers the WalthersProto and thinks that the Athearn Genesis looks off, so that's hardly a 50/50 split. |
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Oct 4, 2023 3:43:08 GMT -8
This is a bit of a “been there, done that” topic that has been covered before here and on other forums. There seems to be a 50/50 split among those who like the Proto shell and those that prefer the Genesis one. Unless someone decides to tool a new GP7/9 shell, which is highly unlikely, we’ll be stuck with these two offerings for a while. You're also forgetting the Atlas GP7 which, IMHO, also looks vastly more "right" than the Athearn Genesis GP7. |
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