|
|
Post by cpr4200 on Mar 28, 2024 12:48:10 GMT -8
It's pretty hard to find decent color photos of N&W SD40's in pre-NW paint. I'm assuming the first order (1580-1609) came in Pevler blue, since they were ordered about the same time as the GP40's and SD45's, which I'm sure came in blue. 1610-1624 came a few years later (1971). Were they blue too, or black with the gold herald and road name? The 8400 series U30B's of 1970-71 came in black.
I just picked up a black N&W 1604 with the later white road name on black. I'd like to simply remove the lettering and decal it with the gold hamburger and road name without repainting it. ~ Walt
|
|
|
|
Post by drsvelte on Mar 28, 2024 13:48:37 GMT -8
There are some good color photos in Norfolk & Western Power 1955-1982 In Color: Volume 3 by Stephen M. Timko, including one of #1604 as-delivered. Another good source is RailPictures.net. The first batch of SD40s in 1966 came painted in the F4 scheme (Pevler blue with delux gold lettering and the "Hamburger" medallion). The second batch in 1971 came painted in the F6 scheme or "13 dip" (all black with the large NW in white along the sides). Later, some SD40s were repainted in the F8 or Claytor scheme (all black with the road name in white spelled out along the sides). SD40 #1604 was one of the units to receive the 1981 repaint. I have the Athearn RTR #1604 and I think it looks really sharp in the Claytor. Eentually #1604 got NS paint. If you want the "hamburger" scheme it looks like you'll need to re-paint.   |
|
|
|
Post by cpr4200 on Mar 28, 2024 14:14:42 GMT -8
Damn. Appreciate the info! Was afraid they might have come in "Needs Washing" paint but hoped for black and gold since the U30B's came that way at about the same time. I also have the Athearn 1604 as you show it, but it wouldn't have run on the WM in that scheme.
Now I have to find a spray can blue that's close. ~ Walt |
|
|
|
Post by lvrr325 on Mar 29, 2024 0:25:51 GMT -8
I picked up a no box Athearn SD40 a few years ago that appears to be factory painted Norfolk & Western spelled out yellow/gold lettering on a black body. Is it a mistake? It's buried so I'd have to go look for it for the road number. Seems unlikely a 1966 engine would need repaint in 1970 but who knows. 1597 does appear on RRpicturearchives looking black but could just be the dirt and lighting conditions.
|
|
|
|
Post by drsvelte on Mar 29, 2024 3:08:45 GMT -8
I did not say anything about a repaint as early as 1970, where did that come from? The second group from EMD in 1971 were delivered in the F6 black. Repaints into the Claytor scheme did not begin until post-1981.
"The first new units to wear the blue scheme were the . . . . EMD SD40s #1580 thru #1609 . . ."
P. K. Withers & R. G. Bowers, Norfolk and Western Second Generation Diesels, 1989, p. 235.
After years of use and the accumulation of dust and dirt, Pevler blue often appeared to be more of a faded gray-blue. But not black.
|
|
|
|
Post by lvrr325 on Mar 29, 2024 5:15:47 GMT -8
No, I said it because I am wondering why this model engine is black, would it represent an engine repainted black when just a few years old, or did Athearn just blow it on the color. Either one is possible. I suppose I will have to dig it out and see what number it is and see what pictures of it are available.
I don't even know how you'd get thinking I imply you said that from that paragraph. Maybe it's time for that morning coffee.
|
|
|
|
Post by cellis231 on Mar 29, 2024 13:01:04 GMT -8
There's also the N&W Historical Society archive database for engine and rolling stock photos. Just type in the engine number and you'll get an "advanced" result for photos and documents and another "diesel" result that shows the engines service history, sometimes including repaint dates. Good stuff. www.nwhs.org/archivesdb/ |
|
|
|
Post by drsvelte on Mar 29, 2024 13:10:21 GMT -8
Indeed, the NWHS is a superb resource for anyone interested in the N&W or acquired roads.
|
|
|
|
Post by wagnersteve on Mar 29, 2024 14:28:32 GMT -8
3/29/2074, 6:21 p.m., EDT
cellis231 and drsvelte, thanks very much for your post. My interest in the N&W is limited, but I like the Nickel Plate Road very much, in part because I did my undergraduate work in northeastern Ohio and got into Cleveland often enough to see that the NKP's later black and yellow paint scheme on diesel switchers and some road switchers was a lot like the Delaware & Hudson's black Alcos with rather broad end stripes. An NKP line crossed the main at Wellington, a little south of Oberlin, where Oberlin students and profs rescued a recaptured fugitive slave before the Civil War and, as i recall, was where the original "Spirit of 76" painting was created.
|
|
|
|
Post by ChessieFan1978 on Mar 29, 2024 16:45:10 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by lvrr325 on Mar 29, 2024 23:09:25 GMT -8
Locomotive is road number 1596. Search pulls up two old color photos in which it looks black. One of the pictures has a very yellow tint though.
It may be a mistake; on Fallen Flags there are 1966 pictures of 1599 and 1604 which both appear black; or it may be the last few units of this order were delivered in black. 1583 in the same year and it is blue. There is a photo of 1597 which is blue on both RR Picture Archives and the N&W site. But units were not always delivered in order.
|
|
|
|
Post by cpr4200 on Mar 30, 2024 5:03:37 GMT -8
I saw those two photos on FF, and to me they appear to be blue! Even though it's oddly weathered, compare the trucks and fuel tank to the body on 1604. Body is lighter, IMO. 1599 looks dirty blue to me, too.
|
|
|
|
Post by drsvelte on Mar 30, 2024 7:38:10 GMT -8
A photo of N&W #1604 (which started this discussion) not too long after being delivered. Looks pretty blue to me! Source: fallenflags.org  |
|
|
|
Post by cpr4200 on Mar 30, 2024 8:11:33 GMT -8
That's the photo I was referring to. Weird with the dark and faded areas. Clearcoat failure?
|
|
|
|
Post by bnsf971 on Mar 30, 2024 8:17:28 GMT -8
That's the photo I was referring to. Weird with the dark and faded areas. Clearcoat failure? Probably where the rain hasn't dried completely yet. Look at the ground around the engine, and the wet pavement splotches. |
|
|
|
Post by cpr4200 on Mar 30, 2024 8:19:08 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by nsc39d8 on Mar 30, 2024 8:26:29 GMT -8
I asked the question of paint schemes to the N&W mailing list. All responses have been that the SD40's never got the F3 black with 15 inch gold lettering like the U30B's.
All were delivered in the blue scheme with the hamburger herald, F4 scheme. The Withers book on second generation N&W states that the U30B's got the black scheme because
N&W was going back to black from the Pelvar Blue, only the lettering had not been decided upon.
One other thing regarding the N&W Sd40's is the trucks. One order had the high mount triple clasp and the other lower mount gear. Definitely use photos when picking a number.
N&W also changed out these trucks so the unit may not have it's as delivered trucks.
|
|
|
|
Post by Baikal on Mar 30, 2024 8:39:57 GMT -8
I've seen several posts over 20 years where someone claims Pevler blue is metallic based a photo or two. But as far as I know no one's provided anything close to proof, it's always a rumor. I chalk it up to yet another railfan myth.
N&W modeler Andy Harman researched this thoroughly, he said 15+ years ago it was not metallic. People have paint chips, non-metallic. |
|
|
|
Post by drsvelte on Mar 30, 2024 8:55:23 GMT -8
N&W SD40 #1604 hit the paint quadfecta: as-delivered F4, re-paint 1970's F6, re-paint 1980's F8, and re-paint 1990's Norfolk Southern.   |
|
|
|
Post by Baikal on Mar 30, 2024 8:57:06 GMT -8
I asked the question of paint schemes to the N&W mailing list. All responses have been that the SD40's never got the F3 black with 15 inch gold lettering like the U30B's. All were delivered in the blue scheme with the hamburger herald, F4 scheme. The Withers book on second generation N&W states that the U30B's got the black scheme because N&W was going back to black from the Pelvar Blue, only the lettering had not been decided upon. One other thing regarding the N&W Sd40's is the trucks. One order had the high mount triple clasp and the other lower mount gear. Definitely use photos when picking a number. N&W also changed out these trucks so the unit may not have it's as delivered trucks.
Pevler. Herman Pevler was a N&W president.
|
|
|
|
Post by Baikal on Mar 30, 2024 9:04:38 GMT -8
That's the photo I was referring to. Weird with the dark and faded areas. Clearcoat failure?
I noticed 20+ years ago there seemed to be a lot of dark blue or dark blue-green autos, metallic and non-metallic, that had badly faded, splochy, or peeling paint. It appeared to be independent of make or model but more common than on any other color. I still see a lot of it today. Dunno.
|
|
|
|
Post by drsvelte on Mar 30, 2024 16:13:59 GMT -8
Here are some comments on Pevler blue, mostly from Trainorders.com:
"Here's a pretty good insight on matching Pevler blue, from O Gauge Railroading discussion: ". . . from the time the units were painted, [Pevler blue] oxidized almost immediately. Color hues were all over the map."
And from a Model Railroader mag discussion: "A very fastiduous N&W modeler, Andy Harmon, uses Scalecoat II ATSF Blue for his Pevler Blue N&W units."
And right here on TO the Santa Fe idea is repeated, plus a few others: www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,485579
On the railwire.net: "Model Master Blue Angel Blue is the best match I know of." This opinion was seconded.
On another forum, Chris Toth said, "The N&W blue was a different shade than Wabash blue. In fact, there were two blues used during the N&W blue era. The shade used on locomotives, passenger cars and cabooses was metallic, while that used on freight cars was not."
I've heard the N&W blue was C&O blue due to the stillborn merger discussions - that info was from folks in Portsmouth, OH so it made sense."
|
|
|
|
Post by Baikal on Mar 30, 2024 17:31:40 GMT -8
Here are some comments on Pevler blue, mostly from Trainorders.com:
"Here's a pretty good insight on matching Pevler blue, from O Gauge Railroading discussion: ". . . from the time the units were painted, [Pevler blue] oxidized almost immediately. Color hues were all over the map."
And from a Model Railroader mag discussion: "A very fastiduous N&W modeler, Andy Harmon, uses Scalecoat II ATSF Blue for his Pevler Blue N&W units."
And right here on TO the Santa Fe idea is repeated, plus a few others: www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?3,485579
On the railwire.net: "Model Master Blue Angel Blue is the best match I know of." This opinion was seconded.
On another forum, Chris Toth said, "The N&W blue was a different shade than Wabash blue. In fact, there were two blues used during the N&W blue era. The shade used on locomotives, passenger cars and cabooses was metallic, while that used on freight cars was not."
I've heard the N&W blue was C&O blue due to the stillborn merger discussions - that info was from folks in Portsmouth, OH so it made sense."
I remember RPMer Andy Harm an, who painted many N&W locos, said he used a variety of blues because that's what he saw in real life, including ATSF and C&O / B&O and other dark blues. Like it varied so much by unit/time/place it was pointless trying to nail it down too much. Photos: gp30.com
It was definetly darker than Wabash blue. Could be something to the C&O merger work. It was not metallic. I think the N&W Tuscan red a couple dozed units wore in the 80s(?)(mostly big GEs?) was metalic.
Photos of two B&O units with ATSF units. Could be the same blues and yellows. I can't tell. Some RRs shared the same colors- NH (SOCONY) red & SP Daylight red, UP & ACY yellow, etc.
|
|
|
|
Post by cpr4200 on Mar 30, 2024 17:34:33 GMT -8
Aha! "The shade used on locomotives, passenger cars and cabooses was metallic ..." As to the N&W/C&O connection, IIRC, N&W and C&O financed the CNJ/NJDOT GP40P's. When NJT painted their CNJ heritage unit, they said the EMD paint diagram spec'ed metallic paint, so that's what they used. I've seen photos of the GP40P's working their way east on a B&O freight, but IMO they don't appear to have metallic paint. Anyway, I thought they might have been painted metallic Pevler blue for passenger service.
|
|
|
|
Post by Baikal on Mar 31, 2024 7:16:43 GMT -8
Aha! "The shade used on locomotives, passenger cars and cabooses was metallic ..." As to the N&W/C&O connection, IIRC, N&W and C&O financed the CNJ/NJDOT GP40P's. When NJT painted their CNJ heritage unit, they said the EMD paint diagram spec'ed metallic paint, so that's what they used. I've seen photos of the GP40P's working their way east on a B&O freight, but IMO they don't appear to have metallic paint. Anyway, I thought they might have been painted metallic Pevler blue for passenger service.
Do you have a link to that EMD paint spec doc? Or even a link to a link? Who is "they"?
N&W blue paint chips exist, they are not metallic. N&W historian Andy Harman spent a years researching & detailing N&W units- he said they were not metallic. He put enough work into his models that I tust his research. The blue paint oxidizes badly plus looks like different colors, nothing special.
SP freight car red was named "metallic", but it was wasn't. Just "boxcar red" paint. There's no arguement about that from any SP historians.
I think NJDOT/EL U34CHs might have been metallic dark blue & gray. Maybe this has something to do with the heritage unit EMD rumor.
EMD's demo blue was metallic. Same for Detroit Edison, who used the EMD paint scheme. Was any of Monon's black & "gold" paint metallic, or just tan? Did other railroad use metallic paint?
Using any heritage unit repaint work to try to figure out what was applied to the original/prototype is dangerous. |
|
|
|
Post by wagnersteve on Mar 31, 2024 7:35:34 GMT -8
3/29/2024, 11:34 a.m., EDT
A very interesting discussion. I hadn't known the correct spelling of the former N&W president's family name.
For whatever it may be worth, I think of the lettering an earlier participant called "Needs Washing" as the "barely touching" logo.
|
|
|
|
Post by wagnersteve on Mar 31, 2024 7:35:47 GMT -8
3/29/2024, 11:34 a.m., EDT
A very interesting discussion. I hadn't known the correct spelling of the former N&W president's family name.
For whatever it may be worth, I think of the lettering an earlier participant called "Needs Washing" as the "barely touching" logo.
|
|
|
|
Post by cpr4200 on Mar 31, 2024 10:06:57 GMT -8
Re: NJT heritage GP40P paint -- "they" are NJT, the Anthracite RR's Historical Society, and I think, NJ's United Railway Historical Society, who were involved in the research.
Did a search of the ARHS FB page and found this:
"... the paint diagram says they were painted as per C&O drawing 61-7-107."
"CNJ GP40P showing its deep B&O blue paint. It was not metallic like the recent NJ Transit repaint is."
Guess that settles it, but I remember an ARHS guru getting very defensive when I questioned the metallic paint on 4109.
|
|
|
|
Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Apr 10, 2024 10:23:07 GMT -8
That's the photo I was referring to. Weird with the dark and faded areas. Clearcoat failure? That’s a GM paint feature, years of GM cars had lots of clear coat failure. Wild guess, coincides with newer water base paints GM started using. The blocks around their assembly plants and Fisher body plants used to have terrible air/odors…now for the most part they’re empty lots. Some filled with “chip shortage” inventory. |
|
|
|
Post by gevohogger on Apr 10, 2024 11:02:56 GMT -8
That's the photo I was referring to. Weird with the dark and faded areas. Clearcoat failure? That’s a GM paint feature, years of GM cars had lots of clear coat failure. Wild guess, coincides with newer water base paints GM started using. The blocks around their assembly plants and Fisher body plants used to have terrible air/odors…now for the most part they’re empty lots. Some filled with “chip shortage” inventory. Ford and Chrysler, too. Dark blue was the worst. Dodge vans, Ford trucks, Fox-body Mustangs, etc..... Even the Dodge Neons had issues with it and they weren't introduced until much later.
Like someone said above, that SD40 just looks like it's only partly wet. Note the water on the fuel tank.
I doubt locomotives have clear coat.
|
|
