ST974
New Member
Posts: 41 
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Post by ST974 on Jul 23, 2024 9:42:54 GMT -8
I have decided after the last several months of delivery estimates being way off and continually slid that I am no longer giving Athearn my business. They are doing it again with the SD70ACu and the NS coil cars and in the past few years these delays are never reflected on their website. It would not take much to go online and update it like many companies do. So with that said, who is a manufacturer that has accurate delivery times? So far I have seen ScaleTrains and Walthers that seem to be on the mark. I'm not asking for exact dates but these huge slides of months at a time that they don't even bother to update on their website is making me turn away. I don't think it's that difficult to have someone update the website as the factory updates them.
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Post by gevohogger on Jul 23, 2024 10:03:25 GMT -8
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Post by riogrande on Jul 23, 2024 10:15:44 GMT -8
Tangent. When they announce, they have the models to ship right away.
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Post by cemr5396 on Jul 23, 2024 10:20:15 GMT -8
^ what he said.
If you're only going to buy from companies that deliver exactly when they say they will, I guess you'll only be buying Tangent stuff from now on.
Delays are part of the deal. Some companies are worse than others but nobody is exempt. And I will contend that none of them are particularly good at giving updates as to how things are coming along.
The stuff will come eventually, just be patient about it. At the end of the day we've all got bigger problems than when our fancy new trains show up.
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Post by peoriaman on Jul 23, 2024 14:01:30 GMT -8
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Post by marknycfan on Jul 23, 2024 14:54:19 GMT -8
First world problems, lighten up, Francis!
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cn2240
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by cn2240 on Jul 23, 2024 16:42:50 GMT -8
Tangent are basically the only ones that reliably will follow their ETA cuz their models are already produced and are about to be shipped to dealers. Basically every manufacturer has delayed ETAs for models in the past, some more than others but it happens and is frankly a fact of life, I have seen ST delaying the ETA of their models in the past. If Tangent were announcing their models before production, I wouldn't be surprised if they would be moving their ETAs as well.
How hard is it to look at what the Athearn ETA is and then just add a few months on top of that?
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ST974
New Member
Posts: 41
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Post by ST974 on Jul 23, 2024 17:44:47 GMT -8
I'm not asking for exact delivery dates but within a few months would be nice, so I was asking what companies are somewhat close. Athearn is continually slipping 6 to even 18 months on their delivery times. I've just decided I don't need that level of unpredictability with my pre orders and I dont' feel like watching everything so closely to wait until they're in stock and skipping the pre order.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 23, 2024 19:28:15 GMT -8
I've just decided I don't need that level of unpredictability with my pre orders and I dont' feel like watching everything so closely to wait until they're in stock and skipping the pre order. That could be a problem if they decide to offer something you really want. And no one else does. It sounds like you prefer "any old thing" that's delivered on time, rather than a "thing you really need" that is off in the fuzzy distance. Ed |
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ST974
New Member
Posts: 41
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Post by ST974 on Jul 24, 2024 4:33:04 GMT -8
I've just decided I don't need that level of unpredictability with my pre orders and I dont' feel like watching everything so closely to wait until they're in stock and skipping the pre order. That could be a problem if they decide to offer something you really want. And no one else does. It sounds like you prefer "any old thing" that's delivered on time, rather than a "thing you really need" that is off in the fuzzy distance. Ed No one is in need of anything in model railroading, it is all about wants, especially for my scope of interests. So I choose not to need anything from Ahearn until they get this straightened out. |
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Post by prr 4467 on Jul 24, 2024 5:31:38 GMT -8
Other than Tangent announcing when they have the item in stock, nobody else is really doing any better.
I've been in this hobby more than 50 years. Nobody can afford to have warehouses full of trains. The model has changed to "just in time delivery" which means if the importer is not completely sold out of the item within 3 weeks after arrival, then the inventory becomes essentially dead inventory that is difficult to move (then later after a year or so the last few items go on sale at discounted prices).
ScaleTrains is better at hitting some of their delivery dates.
Other manufacturers have projects literally taking 4 years or longer, in some cases, from the time the pre-orders are accepted until the finished models arrive in the US. Athearn is literally doing better than some of them.
Your "not needing anything from Athearn" is going to lead you to "not needing anything from" others. It is a more complex issue than you realize and is based upon the economics of this hobby. To stay in business, they must minimize the use of borrowed money to finance new shipments.
This is just the way it is. The 1980's, when people had items in stock everywhere, eating up bank lines of credit, are long gone. Also, the choices in what is available to buy are much greater than we ever dreamed about in those days. We are better off this way.
Manufacturers share factories in China. If something happens and you need to make a change to address something that is wrong, then you lose your production window and must get in line behind others. Very few North American importers have factories solely dedicated to them, and even for the few that do, stuff still happens that causes product delays.
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ST974
New Member
Posts: 41
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Post by ST974 on Jul 24, 2024 5:43:52 GMT -8
Other than Tangent announcing when they have the item in stock, nobody else is really doing any better. I've been in this hobby more than 50 years. Nobody can afford to have warehouses full of trains. The model has changed to "just in time delivery" which means if the importer is not completely sold out of the item within 3 weeks after arrival, then the inventory becomes essentially dead inventory that is difficult to move (then later after a year or so the last few items go on sale at discounted prices). ScaleTrains is better at hitting some of their delivery dates. Other manufacturers have projects literally taking 4 years or longer, in some cases, from the time the pre-orders are accepted until the finished models arrive in the US. Athearn is literally doing better than some of them. Your "not needing anything from Athearn" is going to lead you to "not needing anything from" others. It is a more complex issue than you realize and is based upon the economics of this hobby. To stay in business, they must minimize the use of borrowed money to finance new shipments. This is just the way it is. The 1980's, when people had items in stock everywhere, eating up bank lines of credit, are long gone. Also, the choices in what is available to buy are much greater than we ever dreamed about in those days. We are better off this way. Manufacturers share factories in China. If something happens and you need to make a change to address something that is wrong, then you lose your production window and must get in line behind others. Very few North American importers have factories solely dedicated to them, and even for the few that do, stuff still happens that causes product delays. Right now the only one I see worse delivery time promises being blown than Athearn is Intermountain. At least most of the others update their websites with fresh estimated arrival dates, Athearn straight up doesn't care apparently. They put out a survey where they got heavy responses from my club that delivery dates are important and they can't have one employee go in and change the dates as the situation progresses out of all those horizon and athearn employees? I just see this as a fixable problem, considering my only real desire isn't even on time products just updated estimates as time progresses on their website. |
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Post by riogrande on Jul 24, 2024 5:54:42 GMT -8
Atlas would be a close second.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 24, 2024 5:56:16 GMT -8
That could be a problem if they decide to offer something you really want. And no one else does. It sounds like you prefer "any old thing" that's delivered on time, rather than a "thing you really need" that is off in the fuzzy distance. Ed No one is in need of anything in model railroading, it is all about wants, especially for my scope of interests. So I choose not to need anything from Ahearn until they get this straightened out. And, similarly, I have so many projects that it doesn't matter if I get most things that we're talking about here (locomotives and rolling stock) in a month or a year. Take, for example, Athearn's recent announcement of McCloud SD38's. Sure, I don't NEED them ("No one is in need of anything in model railroading."). But if I WANT them ("...it is all about wants,..."), that's my option. Or, of course, I can wait for the Tangent version. Ed |
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Post by jonklein611 on Jul 24, 2024 6:03:10 GMT -8
Athearn already responded to this. They are working on updating the info on the site, and the process they use. It will take them time to get there:
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Post by NS4122 on Jul 24, 2024 6:46:23 GMT -8
I would say Atlas is by far the worst. Atlas would be a close second. |
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Post by middledivision on Jul 24, 2024 6:47:31 GMT -8
No one takes a back seat to Atlas!
Not one to defend Athearn but the Versacoil cars are back to showing July delivery.
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Post by riogrande on Jul 24, 2024 7:15:44 GMT -8
I would say Atlas is by far the worst. Atlas would be a close second. When you consider IRMC announced SD40T-2's uncounted years ago, I'd say they are jockeying for first position. |
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Post by gevohogger on Jul 24, 2024 7:28:38 GMT -8
I would say Atlas is by far the worst. When you consider IRMC announced SD40T-2's uncounted years ago, I'd say they are jockeying for first position. The GP16 says "Hold my beer!" |
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Post by hovehicle on Jul 24, 2024 7:50:24 GMT -8
ST974,
Trust me, I get what you're saying. Athearn has 3 Genesis cars coming in 3 consecutive months starting with the Versacoils in July, the NSC 6400 gons in August, and the Texarcana 60' box cars in Sept. Well, they have 1 week to deliver on the Versacoils, we will see if it happens.
Athearn used to be the leader in HO trains, not anymore. Their lead times for a so called top tier manufacturer just plain suck. If Tangent was a more modern manufacturer I'd be in trouble!
Vito L.
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Post by prr 4467 on Jul 24, 2024 8:03:03 GMT -8
There are other manufacturers with some product delivery dates that are 4 or even 5 years late.
I'm just not calling them out here, but the product is a locomotive.
Updating the delivery dates on the website does not address the issue, only masks the issue/changes expectations/frustrates anyone who pre-ordered.
I'm looking at the time from initial pre-order to final delivery, and for some products, from manufacturers not named Athearn, Atlas or Intermountain, it is factually taking 4 to 5 years on some locomotive projects, while other projects may be more typically 2 years from the same manufacturer.
One product is a Santa Fe F9A in blue and yellow warbonnet paint. It's been so long that I placed a pre-order, then later cancelled it when I heard there were not enough pre-orders to make it. Then the manufacturer later re-announced the same product run of F units, took new pre-orders (got enough), which I did place one, and it has been so many years that I subsequently cancelled that pre-order too. We are well over 5 years on this loco. I've actually lost count of how many years, but I think it actually beats anything Intermountain or Atlas has ever done.
Within the last couple decades, Precision Scale ran advertisements in magazines for some steam locomotives, in HO brass, for 5 years or longer and never made the model. Now my understanding is that Precision Scale is gone...
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cn2240
Junior Member
Posts: 70
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Post by cn2240 on Jul 24, 2024 8:06:07 GMT -8
I would say Atlas is by far the worst. When you consider IRMC announced SD40T-2's uncounted years ago, I'd say they are jockeying for first position. Let's not forget about the Dash-9, another model which had plenty of hype surrounding it when first announced and now it's a project which will likely never see the light of day |
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Post by jonklein611 on Jul 24, 2024 8:41:12 GMT -8
There are other manufacturers with some product delivery dates that are 4 or even 5 years late. I'm just not calling them out here, but the product is a locomotive. Updating the delivery dates on the website does not address the issue, only masks the issue/changes expectations/frustrates anyone who pre-ordered. I'm looking at the time from initial pre-order to final delivery, and for some products, from manufacturers not named Athearn, Atlas or Intermountain, it is factually taking 4 to 5 years on some locomotive projects, while other projects may be more typically 2 years from the same manufacturer. One product is a Santa Fe F9A in blue and yellow warbonnet paint. It's been so long that I placed a pre-order, then later cancelled it when I heard there were not enough pre-orders to make it. Then the manufacturer later re-announced the same product run of F units, took new pre-orders (got enough), which I did place one, and it has been so many years that I subsequently cancelled that pre-order too. We are well over 5 years on this loco. I've actually lost count of how many years, but I think it actually beats anything Intermountain or Atlas has ever done. Within the last couple decades, Precision Scale ran advertisements in magazines for some steam locomotives, in HO brass, for 5 years or longer and never made the model. Now my understanding is that Precision Scale is gone... Without knowing the details inside the company and the specific project, it's really difficult to compare preorder timelines. Some companies wait until further along the product development timeline before announcing preorders. Some even wait until they have sample tooling. This "removes" time from the project. The same is true if they are able to utilize or share some already existing tooling. In reality the project takes around the same amount of time, it's just not displayed to the public. Missing factory production slots can also cause delays in the expected schedule. If the factory suddenly has to do rework to fix another model, or run more parts, other projects will be impacted. This becomes extra complicated if the factory is a shared resource, your production slot may shift by months if not years. |
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Post by dti406 on Jul 24, 2024 8:42:31 GMT -8
When you consider IRMC announced SD40T-2's uncounted years ago, I'd say they are jockeying for first position. Let's not forget about the Dash-9, another model which had plenty of hype surrounding it when first announced and now it's a project which will likely never see the light of day And don’t forget the ACF 2927 Covered Hoppers from Intermountain that I think I preordered in 2016!!!! Rick Jesionowski |
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Post by riogrande on Jul 24, 2024 8:43:48 GMT -8
If the other companies would simply wait until they have product ready to ship before they announce it, there would be little consternation. No one would be counting off the years waiting simply because they had no clue.
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Post by cemr5396 on Jul 24, 2024 9:12:04 GMT -8
If the other companies would simply wait until they have product ready to ship before they announce it, there would be little consternation. No one would be counting off the years waiting simply because they had no clue. Unfortunately I just don't think it's feasible for the entire hobby to go the Tangent route with announcements. These companies can't afford to over produce and get stuck with the excess, but if they all started making small enough runs that they could be certain they'd sell out, it would become very diffucult to actually buy stuff as the consumer, because demand would be higher than the supply. Think about how fast certain Tangent models have sold out before, and then think if EVERY model was like that. At best it would become very difficult to actually get the stuff you're interested in as a modeler, at worst it would become like the ticket problems with large scale events, where people buy up most of the stock right away and then turn and resell it for multiple times face value. Which is a bad enough problem in the model world already even without massively shrinking the supply available. |
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Post by riogrande on Jul 24, 2024 10:01:31 GMT -8
Unfortunately I just don't think it's feasible for the entire hobby to go the Tangent route with announcements. These companies can't afford to over produce and get stuck with the excess, but if they all started making small enough runs that they could be certain they'd sell out, it would become very diffucult to actually buy stuff as the consumer, because demand would be higher than the supply. Think about how fast certain Tangent models have sold out before, and then think if EVERY model was like that. So how is it feasible for Tangent to announce when ready to ship if it isn't for other companies. Wouldn't the same rule apply to all. Are you suggesting that announcing a year or two ahead of time prevents companies from getting stuck with excess stock? I've seen certain models sell out fast from Tangent and Athearn for example. The Genesis D&RGW GP40-2's sold out fast. So did the Tangent RI early cabooses. OTOH, Tangent still has a lot of 86' auto parts hanging around. |
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Post by jonklein611 on Jul 24, 2024 10:46:21 GMT -8
Unfortunately I just don't think it's feasible for the entire hobby to go the Tangent route with announcements. These companies can't afford to over produce and get stuck with the excess, but if they all started making small enough runs that they could be certain they'd sell out, it would become very diffucult to actually buy stuff as the consumer, because demand would be higher than the supply. Think about how fast certain Tangent models have sold out before, and then think if EVERY model was like that. So how is it feasible for Tangent to announce when ready to ship if it isn't for other companies. Wouldn't the same rule apply to all. Are you suggesting that announcing a year or two ahead of time prevents companies from getting stuck with excess stock? I've seen certain models sell out fast from Tangent and Athearn for example. The Genesis D&RGW GP40-2's sold out fast. So did the Tangent RI early cabooses. OTOH, Tangent still has a lot of 86' auto parts hanging around. Tangent seems to do smaller production runs, or at least at a size where a majority of the run will sell quickly. Demand for these products is really difficult to predict. If a company grossly overproduces, they are stuck holding lots of expensive inventory and can't make money. This happened to Walthers with the Metroliners. They overproduced and the things were available for years after as steep discounts. Companies in this market use preorders to size their production runs at appropriate volumes. |
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Post by cemr5396 on Jul 24, 2024 10:46:33 GMT -8
Unfortunately I just don't think it's feasible for the entire hobby to go the Tangent route with announcements. These companies can't afford to over produce and get stuck with the excess, but if they all started making small enough runs that they could be certain they'd sell out, it would become very diffucult to actually buy stuff as the consumer, because demand would be higher than the supply. Think about how fast certain Tangent models have sold out before, and then think if EVERY model was like that. So how is it feasible for Tangent to announce when ready to ship if it isn't for other companies. Wouldn't the same rule apply to all. Very simple. They're a small company with just a couple people. They can afford to make a smaller run of product even if doing so might mean they lose potential sales. If a model is a big seller they can simply make it again in the future. Bigger companies have to think about the fact that each release has to make enough money to keep the lights on and keep everyone paid until the cash injection when the next release comes out. And so on. Absolutely it does. Are you forgetting that the entire reason these companies announce things early is so that there is time for them to take pre orders? These companies are only producing enough pieces to cover the pre orders and maybe a couple percent extra for post-release sales. So they might produce 105% of whatever the number of preorders was. The risk to do that is FAR lower than it is to just make 10,000 of something and hope you can actually sell them. Yes, Tangent still has 86' parts cars sitting around. But the number is small enough that it is not make or break for them. They'll sell them eventually. Tangent's entire production run of a certain car is probably smaller than the number of 'extras' that a larger company like Athearn makes per product run on top of the pre orders. |
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Post by NS4122 on Jul 24, 2024 11:21:24 GMT -8
I totally forgot about intermountain as they seem to have become almost irrelevant in the motive the power market, so I guess they would be first and Atlas second. I would say Atlas is by far the worst. When you consider IRMC announced SD40T-2's uncounted years ago, I'd say they are jockeying for first position. |
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