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Post by jonklein611 on Aug 26, 2024 6:14:28 GMT -8
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 26, 2024 9:12:09 GMT -8
Oh, my.
These were VERY common on the UP in the Northwest.
Oh, my.
I do still wish the models were properly articulated, though.
Ed
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Post by drolsen on Aug 26, 2024 9:40:38 GMT -8
In our first production run of the Bullmoose, we are offering the locomotive in two versions. We are building three prototypical road numbers of an SA-C-6 in a common Pre-1944 appearance, and three prototypical road numbers of an SA-C-2 in a common Post-1944 appearance. Well… I have to ask, which version ran in 1944? Really interesting-looking locomotive. It’s good to see more steam coming to the market, even if it’s not something I model myself. Dave |
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Post by cpr4200 on Aug 26, 2024 9:48:03 GMT -8
I do still wish the models were properly articulated, though. How are they articulated? Do both "trucks" swivel between the second and third driver sets, where there's apparently a gearbox? |
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Post by jonklein611 on Aug 26, 2024 9:48:18 GMT -8
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Post by sd80mac on Aug 26, 2024 11:19:23 GMT -8
In our first production run of the Bullmoose, we are offering the locomotive in two versions. We are building three prototypical road numbers of an SA-C-6 in a common Pre-1944 appearance, and three prototypical road numbers of an SA-C-2 in a common Post-1944 appearance. Well… I have to ask, which version ran in 1944? Really interesting-looking locomotive. It’s good to see more steam coming to the market, even if it’s not something I model myself. Dave The 3500 with the large air pump shields and the flying number boards mounted to the front of the smokebox is the post 44 version. |
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Post by lvrr325 on Aug 26, 2024 11:20:28 GMT -8
It's a little sarcasm. If one version is pre-1944 and one version is post-1944 then there's none that are a 1944 version. Obviously a goof on BLI's part, one of the 1944s should be either 1943 or 1945
What will the list price on these be?
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 26, 2024 11:28:43 GMT -8
I do still wish the models were properly articulated, though. How are they articulated? Do both "trucks" swivel between the second and third driver sets, where there's apparently a gearbox? It appears both "trucks" swivel. The rear one should not. Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 26, 2024 11:41:08 GMT -8
What will the list price on these be? $850 Ed |
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Post by prr 4467 on Aug 26, 2024 16:02:02 GMT -8
Overland Models/Ajin Precision made these steam engines previously as well as W&R/Samhongsa. The W&R/Samhongsa models are the ones to have as their quality is significantly better than the Overland Models versions. Good luck finding them as I've only ever seen one.
I had 3 of the Overland (late-post 1944 rebuild to simple configuration) versions, and one of them promptly developed serious electrical issues such that it would not run well. The excess models were dumped on the market at about $1150 actual street purchase price (that's what I paid). A quick check of Brasstrains' website reveals these models only bring a bit less than the retail price from when they were brand new. They have never appreciated above that despite more than 20 years passing. Others have said they are known for the electrical issues; it's not just me saying that.
BLI's model at about half the price of the Overland locos and nearly 1/3 the cost of the outstanding W&R locos should be a relative bargain. With an MSRP of about $850 these will easily be had for about 1/3 the cost of a W&R/Sam loco, if you could even find one.
My wallet is not safe.
The only comment I can offer here is that the running boards on the side of the boiler look a little thick; it might be for strength and handling purposes, but I really hope they thin them down a little bit.
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Post by prr 4467 on Aug 26, 2024 16:04:29 GMT -8
They're not "trucks".
Proper steam era terminology is "engine" as in "front engine" and "rear engine". That's how the various articulated books refer to them.
Sad for me that most of those authors are dead and gone now.
On the other BLI articulateds, refresh my memory, but the rear engine is usually fixed, is it not?
It was MTH who actually articulated the UP 4-12-2 to make it go around tight curves. BLI uses axle end play (lateral motion) to achieve that instead.
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Post by cpr4200 on Aug 26, 2024 16:35:08 GMT -8
I know they're not trucks. That's why the "quotes." On the MODEL they are effectively trucks that pivot in the center, instead of the rear engine being fixed to the boiler and the front engine being hinged at the rear of its frame. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 26, 2024 16:39:36 GMT -8
They're not "trucks". Proper steam era terminology is "engine" as in "front engine" and "rear engine". That's how the various articulated books refer to them. Sad for me that most of those authors are dead and gone now. On the other BLI articulateds, refresh my memory, but the rear engine is usually fixed, is it not? It was MTH who actually articulated the UP 4-12-2 to make it go around tight curves. BLI uses axle end play (lateral motion) to achieve that instead. But, on the model, they're acting like trucks--hence I also used the term, although inside quotation marks. I am not familiar with the arrangement of truck/engines on earlier BLI articulated models. A quick examination of photos of their Big Boy shows "trucks". As I've mentioned many times, I think only Intermountain has done their articulation properly. In plastic. I believe ALL brass models are properly articulated. Ed |
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Post by prr 4467 on Aug 26, 2024 16:45:10 GMT -8
It is easy to have the rear engine fixed so that it does not rotate. I don't remember what the BLI brass hybrid challenger was like as I replaced it with two Texas & Pacific 2-10-4's. (There was nothing wrong with the challenger at all, I simply wanted the 2-10-4's more).
I can confirm that my son's BLI Y-6B has the rear engine swiveling.
The Oriental Limited Powerhouse Series USRA 2-8-8-2 (diecast and brass hybrids) have fixed rear engines and they have no trouble at all negotiating 22" radius curves.
If I recall correctly the former Lionel/MTH UP challengers had fixed rear engines as well.
I'm pretty sure the Bachmann (first run) B&O EM-1's had fixed rear engines, but I haven't had one of those for awhile.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 26, 2024 16:46:35 GMT -8
Sunset brought in a Samhongsa version, also. I've got one. Never tried to run it. It's got a belt drive, which may or may not be a good idea.
A Someday Project.
Meanwhile, I do believe I'll be picking up one of these new ones, if BLI can manage to also include drivers without the traction tires.
Ed
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 26, 2024 16:48:59 GMT -8
It is easy to have the rear engine fixed so that it does not rotate. Well, yes, if you build it that way from the start. You CANNOT just lock up the rear truck and be done with it. The front truck will have to be remounted in an articulated manner--being able to swing sideways. Ed |
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Post by prr 4467 on Aug 26, 2024 16:50:27 GMT -8
What I meant to say is that it is easy for the manufacturer to fix the rear engine and still have a model negotiate 22" radius curves. I actually have had a conversation with Howard Zane about that and he says that even back in the day most brass articulateds actually could go around tight radius curves (clearly before the later very highly detailed ones came along--where the details get in the way of the swivel).
BLI does NOT include those (drivers without the tires) with the models anymore because MOST people want the rubber tires for pulling power.
However, a simple phone call to BLI and they will still send you the drivers without the traction tires, but they might charge you for the shipping (if I recall correctly). In any case, for me to get the plain drivers was only a very nominal charge.
With the traction tires ON the UP late version (diecast not the brass hybrid version) BLi challenger will easily pull 80 cars. I've done that and my layout is not flat (as long as it's a late Paragon 3 or later loco).
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Post by prr 4467 on Aug 26, 2024 17:02:28 GMT -8
So BLI's model as announced represents TWO different versions of REBUILT Simpled 2-8-8-0's. As originally constructed, they were slow footed compounds, and by the late 30's they were clearly worn out and in need of upgrading. Simpling them (to where all cylinders were now the same size and steam was used once, not twice) sped them up a little bit AND simplified the maintenance. Many of them clearly lasted 15 or more years--well after steam was gone from other roads--into 1954. In that regard, the rebuilding seems to have been pretty successful.
The first BLI version does appear to be a post 1936/1937 version, and the second version post 1944. There are a precious few photos over on rrpicturearchives illustrating both versions as announced.
I was surprised to learn that although Texas & Pacific rebuilt 9 of their 2-10-4's a second time in 1947 with roller bearing rods and roller bearings on all axles, and they were fine locomotives indeed, management decided to dieselize the entire railroad before a 10th rebuilt 2-10-4 could be completed. Representatives from EMD told Texas & Pacific that they could save $1000 per run across the state of Texas (more than 800 miles) simply by switching to diesels. It was game over for their steam roster, with all steam withdrawn from regular service by end of 1951 (excepting one flood engine obtained years later for service in floodwaters).
These UP Bull Moose locos may have looked a bit dated, but they simply outlasted a lot of other steam.
Consequently my wallet is not safe. I will go for the late version as I like it the best.
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Post by lvrr325 on Aug 26, 2024 17:35:46 GMT -8
Sunset brought in a Samhongsa version, also. I've got one. Never tried to run it. It's got a belt drive, which may or may not be a good idea. A Someday Project. Meanwhile, I do believe I'll be picking up one of these new ones, if BLI can manage to also include drivers without the traction tires. Ed The problem with belts is they're rubber and rubber deteriorates with time. Which means eventually it has to be replaced. While you can probably store spares away from U/V light and sealed up, changing one is a difficult task. You would almost be better off with a small bicycle style chain that would likely last the life of the model and if it did need replacement could be done without needing to remove drive wheels. The only reason I can figure for articulating both engine sets is to reduce curve overhang at the front. Rivarossi had their Big Boy going around 18" curves 50 years ago, looking absurd doing it, but IIRC the rear engine is fixed on them. |
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Post by jbilbrey on Aug 26, 2024 19:12:37 GMT -8
The problem with belts is they're rubber and rubber deteriorates with time. Which means eventually it has to be replaced. While you can probably store spares away from U/V light and sealed up, changing one is a difficult task. You would almost be better off with a small bicycle style chain that would likely last the life of the model and if it did need replacement could be done without needing to remove drive wheels. The only reason I can figure for articulating both engine sets is to reduce curve overhang at the front. Rivarossi had their Big Boy going around 18" curves 50 years ago, looking absurd doing it, but IIRC the rear engine is fixed on them. I don't know about the Rivarossi Big Boy, but their Cab Forward did not have a fixed "rear" - well, the one closest to the firebox/cab - engine. It looked ridiculous going around an 18" radius curve. Even with broader curves - like 32-36" radius curves, the cab could swing far enough away from the centerline to knock over scenery other rolling stock, etc. The SP leased four of the "Bull Mooses" from the UP [UP 3504, 3506, 3518, & 3536] from Mid-1947 through 1949. Unfortunately, those numbers were not chosen at least on this run. I also appreciate the BLI's trend of lowering the prices of some of their releases. The MSRP's for these are $50 cheaper than the C&O 2-8-2's - despite being a larger locomotive. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 26, 2024 19:26:30 GMT -8
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Post by prr 4467 on Aug 26, 2024 21:38:41 GMT -8
Thank you, Ed.
jbilbrey--
That C&O K-2 is just marvelous. Best running loco I have (for some reason I do not understand, the keep alive capacitor in the K-2 clearly works better than whatever keep alive is in the 2-10-4's). Also, the K-2 is just loaded with details and rivals the much more expensive Boo Rim built brass ones (maybe they went 1% or 2% farther in detailing).
John
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Post by jbilbrey on Aug 27, 2024 7:54:00 GMT -8
The Otto Perry Online Collection hosted by the Denver Public Library is another source of steam locomotive photographs from the 1930's up through 1950's. While Mr. Perry lived out west, his travels did take him East of the Mississippi. He also was an apparently meticulous note-taker - recording the location, date, length of the train, etc. I usually start my search at the following location: Otto Perry Collection at Denver Public LibraryFrom there, I'll add the railroad, wheel arrangement, etc. to define my search. |
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Post by prr 4467 on Aug 27, 2024 9:26:54 GMT -8
Thank you for sharing!
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ST974
New Member
Posts: 41 
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Post by ST974 on Aug 27, 2024 11:32:45 GMT -8
I am looking forward to these. I wish the companies would drop these graphic renderings though, several have got on this rendering company's client list and it looks like crap. They don't look flattering and the models look far better. I was fine with pre production samples and drawings.
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Post by sd80mac on Aug 27, 2024 13:18:21 GMT -8
These are not done by a "rendering company", these are done in-house or by the factory design team. It's just Auto CAD with some added colors and graphics.
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Post by prr 4467 on Aug 27, 2024 13:54:41 GMT -8
Most likely not Autocad software. Probably whatever the factory in China uses so that everything looks the same in cadd. I know for a fact the cadd software Bowser uses is better than Autocad for this particular application and actually costs something like 8 times the cost of Autocad per license. The license cannot be shared either, so that is more than $20,000 for each individual computer that runs it (as stated by Lee English).
No disrespect intended toward Autocad. It is great for grading sites fast but was not really designed for this type of work.
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thmy
Full Member
Posts: 140
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Post by thmy on Aug 27, 2024 14:42:34 GMT -8
Scale trains or Rapido said they pay a company to do those. So ST974 is right.
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Post by prr 4467 on Aug 27, 2024 20:39:20 GMT -8
According to the UP steam roster data over on utahrails.net, the last 28 2-8-8-0's were all retired during 1954, including engine number 3500 and 3512 which are two of the BLI post-1944 offerings. The 3514 lasted until 1952. Curiously, only one 2-8-8-0 was retired during 1953.
Pretty sure I'll be pre-ordering number 3500.
Looking at the bigger picture, UP rostered 1,499 steam locomotives on January 1, 1947, and by January 1, 1955, the number was down to 621, and cut by more than half again in 2 more years, to just 245.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 28, 2024 6:24:36 GMT -8
I was able to find an Early American object, called a "book" by people in that field of study, and did some reading (black-on-white, not dark-theme). The book is Kratville and Ranks' "Motive Power of the Union Pacific". There is a section on these locomotives.
Drivers were only 57", rather than 63", as on GN's N-3's. However, it is mentioned that tire sizes on the drivers were changed from 3 1/2" to 5", so then that would then have been 60".
"The first feedwater heaters were BL models but most were replaced with SA types in the thirties."
"...all were simpled by 1944."
"The renumbering (into 35xx) was done in 1937 because many of the 2-8-8-0's had been simpled and Dispatchers were always confused..."
"In 1941 the front ends of the Mallets were rebuilt to include air pumps..." ("Mallet" here is the general term for articulateds, I think.)
Ed
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