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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2014 16:01:57 GMT -8
Might condescending don't ya' think? Jim, Trying hard not to be. But when folks go nuclear over a grabiron loose in the box, well, It's hard for me to take them really seriously. Obviously some issues are serious. I did not suggest things that are just wrong or you should not send it back for credit if it's not suitable for sale when removed from the packaging. But the price of absolute happiness is far higher than I think many assume. On the other hand, getting it substantially right isn't rocket science either. The QC issue is largely tangential to the price issue anyway. Where it makes a difference is when people return the FAILs. Keep returning them, do it religiously, Don't accept it. Makes sure its a cost taken into account when they set prices. But this last reason is the main one where it's not going to help prices.. Better QC will cost more. Unless you've got a system that exempts model railroading from the laws of the manufacturing universe. Without getting into the inflation, wages, etc. web of misery, back in the 1980's an Athearn SD40-2 cost $25 and if you knew what you were getting. Today the Athearn is over $200 and its like Forest Gump's box of chocolates when you open the box "you never what you are going to get". Because of the internet, historical societies and all other forms of documentation, getting the paint right on a model should be a given, not a close enough. If an Athearn, Bowser, Atlas, etc. doesn't know reach out and make sure. The resources are there to be tapped. But instead out intrepid manufacturers many times play the part of lone wolf and bull ahead with what they "think" instead of asking questions and getting it right....the first time. A few years ago Athearn screwed up some Norfolk Southern model so badly, it offered up replacement shells with the corrected paint! People are having fun, its just that when you plunk a couple of big headed Ben's along with a couple of Jackson's for ONE choo-choo, your expectations are raised a whole lot more than a model that cost a single Jackson and a Lincoln. Yes, they should get things substantially right. There plenty of reason to do so and little but excuses not to. On the other hand, take curtmc recent comments about which color the steps on CSX units should be painted. He thinks every one should be painted as delivered and that this detail is intrinsic to a properly painted CSX unit. OK, but that's the first I've ever heard of it, which doesn't mean curtmc is the only one to feel that way, but...really, is a unit WRONG if not done to to curtmc's specs? I think that's a stretch, but I'm sure he differs. I'm not saying accept the unacceptable. Heck, I'm in narrowgauge. There's some standards around here.  But this "consumer model railroader" model is a very different thing from folks who actually still put their hands on models, like you. It's "Show me the money!" Because there's one sure way to fix bad products and that's not to buy them. It's not talking about how unhappy you are about buying them. One big reason there is such a grinding of gears on QC is so much is mail ordered. Damage can be preexisting or could happen in transit. For those lucky to have a LHS and can see before they pay it helps. |
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Post by Brakie on Jan 12, 2014 17:35:01 GMT -8
Trying hard not to be. But when folks go nuclear over a grabiron loose in the box, well, It's hard for me to take them really seriously.
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Mike,Don't know about nuclear but,when 3 out of four stirrups is laying in the try of a $24.95 car something dead wrong..That's called shoddy workmanship.
How many seconds would it took to drop a tad of glue on the backside of the hole so the stirrups would have stayed on? 2 seconds per stirrup perhaps?
A lot of QC problems could be stopped at the factory if the model was checked before it was packed-a packer or final assembly person could do that.
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Post by mlehman on Jan 12, 2014 17:53:14 GMT -8
First, I want to agree with Jim. A lot of this is due to not being hands-on at the point of purchase. Sure, it's a hassle to return something like that if it came via mail. But that's the only way to get credit for it, instead of stewing in one's own juices over it. Sorry to say, that's the way the game's played. Send 'em back. i will say I've bought my fair share of RTR. Recently, times are pretty tight, so not so much, mainly a trickle of preorders. Maybe I just can't afford to see enough stuff unboxed to run into the problems that some say are endemic. I actually am a skeptic that truly awful things are any more common when unboxing than with many products. Trying hard not to be. But when folks go nuclear over a grabiron loose in the box, well, It's hard for me to take them really seriously. -------------------------------- Mike,Don't know about nuclear but,when 3 out of four stirrups is laying in the try of a $24.95 car something dead wrong..That's called shoddy workmanship. How many seconds would it took to drop a tad of glue on the backside of the hole so the stirrups would have stayed on? 2 seconds per stirrup perhaps? A lot of QC problems could be stopped at the factory if the model was checked before it was packed-a packer or final assembly person could do that. Larry, It might be shoddy workmanship. It could be quality control. It might be cost-cutting. Two out of three, some people are making a lot of noise about. Why any of these three and not just the first? Maybe the factory received complaints about too much glue slapped on. Then you get the suits all hassling workers over that. So very little glue gets on. Model looks great, passes inspection, but the vibrations inherent in travel to a sale half a world away works most of them loose. Or it could be that previous QC reports failed to point out it's the package that's damaging the steps. The clamshell is a couple of millimeters too tight and -- bingo! -- there's all those stirrups in the box loose. Finally, if there's a choice between too much glue and 3 out of 4 loose in the bottom of the box, give me the latter every time? Why? It's hard to totally fix and over-glued part that's been all slobbered on. Loose grabbed in the bottom of the box? Cool, it's a semi-kit. I've done that before and this one's very easy. And I'll even be careful to put the right amount of glue on them. It's a lot harder to fix big globs of glue. Ultimately, for anything that's not actually damaged in the box, anything the glues back on is a wash for me. Now if it takes 10 minutes out of your life to glue them back on, then sorry you had a bad day. Is it really worth the longer time it would take to repackage and return for credit? I know what I'd do is all I'm saying. |
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Post by Brakie on Jan 12, 2014 18:07:05 GMT -8
Ultimately, for anything that's not actually damaged in the box, anything the glues back on is a wash for me. Now if it takes 10 minutes out of your life to glue them back on, then sorry you had a bad day. Is it really worth the longer time it would take to repackage and return for credit? I know what I'd do is all I'm saying. -------------------------- I do glue 'em back on but,that's not the point..Why should I have to glue stirrups on a $24.95 RTR car that is "supposedly" layout ready. I even fixed this rambling wreck..Athearn did send the replacement rails but,the headlight is unfixable.  |
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Post by atsfan on Jan 12, 2014 18:10:42 GMT -8
Actually yes I have been looking for a replacement for my 2009 SUV... And I can get a new one, same model, same package level, but now with better mpg for about 5% more than I paid for the 2009 model when it was new in 2008. And the 2014 has many more features that the 2009 doesn't. I would like to think the model railroad industry is a good comparison to the auto industry, but I think the difference in scale is something like 10,000:1. Things just don't stack up very well with comparisons. On the other hand, CSX RTR bethgon 5-packs by Athearn - same cars in same paint scheme have gone up nearly 90% (yes, nearly doubled, even accounting for inflation) in the same time period. And people like you Mike who just take the outrageous price increases in stride - perhaps because you are used to them in the little narrow gauge niche market that is not the majority market in HO trains - are among the reasons the manufacturers think they can skyjack the prices... Yep, NG is a tiny market. I think you're imaging the rest of the MRR market as being much larger than it really is. There's little competition, except when manufacturers choose to go head to head. Then you can get 29 different flavors in F units. And they're hard to compare, too. And you also have two major details wrong about the marketplace... (1) A motor vehicle is pretty much a necessity of life for most Americans (especially those without mass transit options) whereas model trains certainly are not, and (2) in many cases in this hobby it is NOT about what you can afford or not, it is more about what you are willing to pay. Just because I can afford every item that a particular manufacturer is bringing out in the next 3-6 months does not mean that I am going to buy a single one, much less all of them. As a non-necessity of life, unfortunately, our stuff will never have the same narrow profit margins and high volume that other consumer products thrive on. Good that you bring it it, as it does tend to undercut the argument that any of us NEED prices to be lower. It's just that we prefer they were. As for the gap between what one can afford and what one can pay, that's at the root of a lot of this quite sterile bellyaching. What difference does it make if I wanted to complain about a near 300% increase in the price of a boxcar? Blackstone will still sell every one they make. And I have some kits here if I really want one and can't afford to buy a RTR. Do I see a problem? No, it's just a tradeoff between time and money. Do I need to feel like I get a deal when I do buy some? Sure, that's the 20% off I'll get from my favorite pusher. Makes me happy. Do I need the contractors in China to work their folks harder, for the importer to lay off the kid sweeping the floor at the warehouse, squeeze the LHS a little more, all to cut the price on something a buck or two and still have to listen to people gripe about how overpriced and under-QCed it is? Sure I could do all that or I could just keep making stuff that sells. If you want to make a difference, write a note to the folks whose products it is. Want to just complain ineffectually, then same old should work fine. If you want something done about it, start a website that tracks QC issues or a national boycott of whoever is the worst offender. That might make a difference. As it is, this is like reading the world's worst edition of Consumer Reports...on Groundhog Day...Over and over and over and over. Folks that unhappy need a lawyer and a lawsuit to make them feel better (not that that's a good idea, it's just another solution our society offers for the truly aggrieved.) Letting other folks listen in should be optional. Once again you trash the forum and it's members. You never have anything positive to add. If this forum and its member are so horrible, so bad, so wrong, and never as smart or perfect as you are, why do you stay here to read it and then trash it "Over and over and over and over "  |
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Post by curtmc on Jan 12, 2014 19:55:44 GMT -8
Frankly I don't care a bit about anything Blackstone does (although I hear they make a good product that used to be more reasonably priced) - and I don't think it is relative to the mainstream of HO modeling... If certain niche modelers want to be blind lemmings and accept outrageous price increases in that niche, then please excuse the rest of us who have the financial common sense not to accept such things. Some of us work hard for our money (and/or may be on limited budgets) and have better uses for it than to pay double the price of what something should be (and recently was).
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Post by lvrr325 on Jan 12, 2014 23:27:15 GMT -8
I can see the cars to model trains comparison to one degree - both have much improved since 1984, the 1984 Athearn SD40-2 (list price $27.50) came with a lot of parts for you to install and drive technology not much changed in 20 years. The $18,000 1984 Buick my grandparents bought new had a computer to run the carburetor, but most of the rest of the technology in it hadn't changed since the 60s either.
A new Buick LaCrosse starts at $33,500; a lot of the stuff that was optional in 1984 is now standard, and there are all kinds of advanced features and gizmos.
But, if you maintain your trains in good condition they only depreciate so far and sometimes may even increase in value. I had an Athearn BB GP38-2 on eBay for a Buy or Best Offer price and someone just hit Buy It Now for the $50.
Whereas the average car, even in drivable condition, after 10-15 years is only worth a couple thousand dollars tops. Discounting where I live, because the salt makes them rust, I was in a couple of Pick-A-Part yards in the Carolinas and saw plenty of rust free autos that had been in nice shape and were sold for junk just the same.
One major difference in 1984 model trains and today is the runs are much tighter. Athearn used to pump their stuff out by the thousands, as evidenced by how many are still around. They could sell more and profit off the volume. Today it's getting to where if you don't pre-order, you may not get the engine you want. They plan ahead to sell X number of them at X price and that's that. I think that may account for the difference in price inflation on trains versus cars.
If it's any guide as to where my opinion is, my car is 23 years old and cost $700 a couple years ago - but it also is what I took to go to the Carolinas, and why I was in picking pieces there. I really had no intention to even go into DCC until I got into On30, and all of those come with it. And now that so many engines come DCC ready and decoders can be had for $20 or so, it's not that bad to deal with.
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Post by Brakie on Jan 13, 2014 3:25:09 GMT -8
But, if you maintain your trains in good condition they only depreciate so far and sometimes may even increase in value. I had an Athearn BB GP38-2 on eBay for a Buy or Best Offer price and someone just hit Buy It Now for the $50.
------------------------------
Yes indeed..A well maintain and beautifully finished(painted handrails,numbers in the number board etc) BB engine can bring top dollar whereas a Athearn BB engine with rusty unpainted sloppily applied handrails or missing handrails will fetch very little.
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Post by curtmc on Jan 13, 2014 10:52:56 GMT -8
I don't think anybody will argue about model trains being better now than they were in the 1980s (except for availability, number of outlets, and the ability of hobby stores to get restocks of better items - which were all better in the 1980s)...
However, if you want to do a good comparison of where we are at in quality and pricing, and where we are heading, then look at model trains (and prices) in 2008 and today in 2014. That is the disturbing comparison that shows the hobby is on a downward slide in quality while at the same time seeing skyrocketing pricing.
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Post by mlehman on Jan 13, 2014 14:37:00 GMT -8
SNIP However, if you want to do a good comparison of where we are at in quality and pricing, and where we are heading, then look at model trains (and prices) in 2008 and today in 2014. That is the disturbing comparison that shows the hobby is on a downward slide in quality while at the same time seeing skyrocketing pricing. My trains have all been about the same quality as in 2008 over the intervening period. A few misses, but mostly I'm amazed that things can be that complex, travel so far, and mostly end up on my doorstep in one beautiful piece. Those who do this professionaly cosnistently out-do my efforts as a modeler, but I keep practicing and someday hope to be consistently that good. But I don't attribute my personal experience to a widespread trend either. YMMV. Not valid with any other offers.  As for pricing, it's not the housing market, which we can probably be thankful for. Now that I think of it, as fast as the world was falling apart in 2008, I'm kinda glad I'm not carving my trains out of chunks of wood right now.  |
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Post by WP 257 on Jan 13, 2014 15:06:24 GMT -8
Well, for me the product quality is significantly improved from 2008.
I'm not an Athearn fan per se, but the Genesis diesels have improved a good bit since 2008 in quality--even though some are still not what I want, some are indeed absolutely gorgeous, and imo it's just "hit or miss" with what you get. I don't like GP-7's or -9's at all but the latest Reading units are simply a beautiful sight to behold!!!! I almost bought one just to have one, and their handrails actually look ok, without the trademark "Athearn lean"! The (latest) GP15's and new GP38-2's are a huge improvement over earlier efforts.
BLI produced RSD-15's in or around 2008, and in the years since, and again in early 2013. The painting and finishing of the RSD-15's from the latest run, along with assembly quality, and sound quality, and running characteristics were all significantly improved since the earlier runs.
Likewise, some of their steam engines had quality issues in the late 2000's that resulted in my not buying them, or selling the ones I did buy because I was not happy with their performance, etc. Stupid QA/QC stuff like pilots on most Santa Fe 2-10-2's and 2-10-4's dragging low on the track. People would bend the support members to get them up but then the bend looks absolutely hideous. Also, some were delivered in grey and not black...clearly the wrong color. So I passed on all of those steamers.
The latest BLI Santa Fe 4-8-4's look pretty darn good, and I'm very sure are a significant improvement.
In 2008, if I recall correctly, Walthers was NOT applying grab irons, or lights, or plating, to their passenger cars. Now, they do all that for those willing to pay only a few bucks more. Knowing what labor is involved, I consider the current passenger car prices to be "reasonable" for what is actually provided. $110 or so for a passenger car with lights and figures installed, all RTR, is not out of line. I would NEVER buy them if I had to do all of that myself, because there's absolutely no way I could do the work as neatly as their builder can, and my time is more valuable than the price of those cars relative to what it would actually take me to attempt to do the very same work.
Since 2008, Bachmann has introduced some really fine improvements--the EM-1's are simply gorgeous and run very well. If I was still a steam fan, I would have kept mine...
Since 2008, MTH has taken steps to make their HO engines play better with others--they are at least DCC ready now, and some of them run really really well even in just plain DC.
Bowser's Alco/MLW series engines have had great improvements since 2008--running, handrails, added details, you name it--they are way better than before.
All of this does come at a price, and most of it was flat out demanded by folks on either the Atlas forum, or other forums. If the prices are "too high" it's partly because the manufacturers listened and gave us exactly what we asked for--so it's pretty much our own fault.
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Post by Brakie on Jan 14, 2014 3:46:51 GMT -8
All of this does come at a price, and most of it was flat out demanded by folks on either the Atlas forum, or other forums. If the prices are "too high" it's partly because the manufacturers listened and gave us exactly what we asked for--so it's pretty much our own fault.
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Sorry to disappoint but,forums had very little to do with what we have today..It started years ago with
highly detailed brass steam locomotives of the 50/60s and we diesel fanboys wanted the same detail the steamheads was getting on their locomotives.
The battle commence.
Manufacturers said it feasibly impossible and would be to far costly.
We persisted.
They resisted.
Then Life Like turned the modeling world upside down with their P2K line..
Then Atlas started their highly detailed locomotives,Athearn dragged their heels-BB was still selling..
The rest is history..
So,yes,we got what we wanted at a price and that price keeps going up at a shocking rate.
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Post by lvrr325 on Jan 14, 2014 3:58:14 GMT -8
But, if you maintain your trains in good condition they only depreciate so far and sometimes may even increase in value. I had an Athearn BB GP38-2 on eBay for a Buy or Best Offer price and someone just hit Buy It Now for the $50. ------------------------------ Yes indeed..A well maintain and beautifully finished(painted handrails,numbers in the number board etc) BB engine can bring top dollar whereas a Athearn BB engine with rusty unpainted sloppily applied handrails or missing handrails will fetch very little. Actually in this particular case it was a never out of the box undec I found at the end of a weak show I did - guy sold me four undec Athearns and an Atlas U23B undec all for $10 each. Only reason they were still there is they weren't priced, and apparently in two days plus who knows how many shows before that, no one bothered to ask. I saw other BB Athearns in the box marked $10 and asked if these were the same price - Which does illustrate another problem as a full on dealer - there is always going to be someone with old stuff blowing it out cheap because they don't know, or don't care. Another table at that show the guy was selling out things cheap; two in the box Athearn RS3s with decoders in them for $40 for the pair, for instance. P1K C-liners in the box with decoders for $20 a shot, too, I missed out on those. A track cleaning car that sold new for about $45, I paid $5 for. In the box. A couple of BLI Pennsy steamers went for well below retail, too, in the $100 range. There is not a train show anywhere I can't go to and find at least a couple things I can buy just expressly to flip, be they modern market items modelers will buy, or vintage pieces collectors will fight over. |
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Post by Brakie on Jan 14, 2014 4:37:33 GMT -8
Which does illustrate another problem as a full on dealer - there is always going to be someone with old stuff blowing it out cheap because they don't know, or don't care. Another table at that show the guy was selling out things cheap; two in the box Athearn RS3s with decoders in them for $40 for the pair, for instance. P1K C-liners in the box with decoders for $20 a shot, too, I missed out on those. A track cleaning car that sold new for about $45, I paid $5 for. In the box. A couple of BLI Pennsy steamers went for well below retail, too, in the $100 range. There is not a train show anywhere I can't go to and find at least a couple things I can buy just expressly to flip, be they modern market items modelers will buy, or vintage pieces collectors will fight over.
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A undec locomotive is almost worth its weight in gold.
I fully agree with your train show finds and will add the use market is ripe for the picking at cheap prices.
As far as the vintage stuff..Yes,I notice the going prices and kinda makes me wish I had some of the stuff I had in the 60s..
I also buy some items to flip over on e-Bay..While I'm certainly not getting rich I haven't lost any money either.
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Post by lvrr325 on Jan 14, 2014 18:32:12 GMT -8
Yeah, you won't get rich enough to retire over it, but I can almost always pay my fuel costs out of it if nothing else. I've even run across cheap brass a few times and made crazy money on it. (I still kick myself for the one show I was late getting to because a trans cooler line on the Suburban I had at the time, decided to leak... I missed a brass LV 4-8-4 for like $50! heard about it from the guy who bought it when I saw it behind his table.)
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Post by mlehman on Jan 15, 2014 7:06:10 GMT -8
Well, for me the product quality is significantly improved from 2008. SNIP All of this does come at a price, and most of it was flat out demanded by folks on either the Atlas forum, or other forums. If the prices are "too high" it's partly because the manufacturers listened and gave us exactly what we asked for--so it's pretty much our own fault. Gotta agree with you, fast14. There are always folks who want something for nothing, but there seems to be a certain element of something for even less than nothing in some of the "logic" I've seen with regard to costs, pricing, and the fact that the model railroad market acts just like most others. I cannot see where there's a special exception to the laws of economics for our hobby. As for me being responsible for Blackstone HOn3 boxcars being $76 a pop -- GUILTY as charged. I've bought nearly every one of 'em. And been happy to do it. You can only build so many of the same kit before it gets less than entertaining. On the other hand, I suppose those who think prices are too high and we should all just refuse to buy any of it...maybe those folks are practicing what they preach? That would certainly account for the lack of layout or train pics from that corner of the internet...since they don't build, they have to buy, and since they won't buy, those tracks in the basement are EMPTY. Sad that anyone pursues a hobby constrained by so many things they won't do that they're left to complain that others enjoying it are ruining their "fun." |
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Post by NS4122 on Jan 15, 2014 8:10:26 GMT -8
Well said, I couldn't agree more. I can't believe that people that have such disdain for the hobby stay with it. Gotta agree with you, fast14. There are always folks who want something for nothing, but there seems to be a certain element of something for even less than nothing in some of the "logic" I've seen with regard to costs, pricing, and the fact that the model railroad market acts just like most others. I cannot see where there's a special exception to the laws of economics for our hobby. As for me being responsible for Blackstone HOn3 boxcars being $76 a pop -- GUILTY as charged. I've bought nearly every one of 'em. And been happy to do it. You can only build so many of the same kit before it gets less than entertaining. On the other hand, I suppose those who think prices are too high and we should all just refuse to buy any of it...maybe those folks are practicing what they preach? That would certainly account for the lack of layout or train pics from that corner of the internet...since they don't build, they have to buy, and since they won't buy, those tracks in the basement are EMPTY. Sad that anyone pursues a hobby constrained by so many things they won't do that they're left to complain that others enjoying it are ruining their "fun." |
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Post by WP 257 on Jan 15, 2014 11:01:25 GMT -8
mlehman and CSXT--
Very well said.
I'm also guilty as charged. I'm buying those Walthers deluxe passenger cars with the people in them, lights and grab irons factory installed, at more than $110 each--and I'm happy to buy them, along with the new BLI E units and Walthers Proto 2000 E and F units.
As soon as I get them, they go out on the layout to run. Only shelf queen is one E unit in the master bedroom on top my dresser--and it gets run a couple times a month.
Nothing I have is stored in boxes--it's all on the layout or shelves adjacent to it, ready to be used.
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Post by Brakie on Jan 15, 2014 12:40:58 GMT -8
On the other hand, I suppose those who think prices are too high and we should all just refuse to buy any of it...maybe those folks are practicing what they preach? That would certainly account for the lack of layout or train pics from that corner of the internet...since they don't build, they have to buy, and since they won't buy, those tracks in the basement are EMPTY. Sad that anyone pursues a hobby constrained by so many things they won't do that they're left to complain that others enjoying it are ruining their "fun."
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Mike,Maybe some of us did indeed quit buying overprice fix'em up RTR because we grew weary of throwing good money after bad.
You may think its cool for companies to ship anything without QC inspection-fix yourself or return it you say..I don't think so..
As far as returning you may get one that is good or another junker.
I have 2 layouts..A 1'x10' ISL and a club layout.3 totes of Athearn and Atlas RTR cars,5 more totes of Athearn,MDC and Accurail cars..I just don't have the room for 'em all so,they get rotated on/off my ISL.
I have 3 more totes at the club..
After 58 years in the hobby I want you to know I'm still having fun-nay a blast with the hobby.
I just hate the QC issues which in the 80s you didn't have with new models.
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Post by mlehman on Jan 15, 2014 13:00:28 GMT -8
On the other hand, I suppose those who think prices are too high and we should all just refuse to buy any of it...maybe those folks are practicing what they preach? That would certainly account for the lack of layout or train pics from that corner of the internet...since they don't build, they have to buy, and since they won't buy, those tracks in the basement are EMPTY. Sad that anyone pursues a hobby constrained by so many things they won't do that they're left to complain that others enjoying it are ruining their "fun." ---------------------------- Mike,Maybe some of us did indeed quit buying overprice fix'em up RTR because we grew weary of throwing good money after bad. You may think its cool for companies to ship anything without QC inspection-fix yourself or return it you say..I don't think so.. Larry. I don't think QC issues are cool. I just think they should be dealt with. I understand how disappointing it is to get something you expected in good shape and find it isn't. Then you find out if a company stands behind the product or not. After 58 years in the hobby I want you to know I'm still having fun-nay a blast with the hobby. I just hate the QC issues which in the 80s you didn't have with new models. I tend to think there wasn't much to break off back in the 80s. That's hard to do with stuff that wasn't there in the first place and only a little less difficult with cast-on details. And there basically wasn't any RTR, unless you think of stuff like AHM and Tyco. Now there is a multitude of detail. You really expect all that stuff to stick and stay stuck? Like I said earlier, if they did their best and it fell off, I'd rather have a chance to reglue it myself than have them switch to too much glue. Something more major? I would've sent that switcher with the skewed eyes back. You can't expect them to get on top of a problem they're not aware of. We also need to keep in mind that inspection usually means at the factory. Here on this side of the pond, it's spotchecking with a few exceptions (Blackstone goes through their stuff pretty carefully, but I don't think even tehy open every box). Can we really or do we really want importers to start opening every box as it comes off the boat? That sounds like lots of $$$. And extra handling is liable to bring on more problems than it fixes unless one is very careful with that. That said, I take you at your word about the QC issues you've seen. I just have to say honestly I've seen relatively few and those were mostly very minor. Nobody's perfect, so the price of perfection is high, if that's the standard you insist on. I'm OK with sending back the basket case that drops into all our lives once in awhile. |
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Post by HurricaneFec on Jan 15, 2014 13:31:20 GMT -8
E Bay has some NEW MTH NS Heritage SD70ace selling for 50 bucks,/100-110 with sound, there must be a manufacture defect. I'm tempted but I swore I would never by the products again
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Post by WP 257 on Jan 15, 2014 13:33:47 GMT -8
The '80's I refer to as the "Kato Era". Lots of good motive power, mold lines a bit more visible than they should be, decent but not great paint, and zero road specific detailing. Great mechanisms, great gearboxes, and little to go wrong...
I have my share of lemons today. Just threw away a plated Proto 2000 passenger car body on which I attempted to polish out a bad scratch but ended up making the area around it look worse... Should have just sent it back to the dealer. Will next time.
I am totally compassionate regarding the QA/QC issues...I just get rid of the lemons either on Evilbay or by stripping them for parts and junking them, and yes, that is an expensive way to even approach "perfection".
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Post by cf7 on Jan 15, 2014 13:44:44 GMT -8
Larry, are you going to fix the headlights, also? That really detracts from the look of the loco. |
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Post by Brakie on Jan 15, 2014 13:49:55 GMT -8
Now there is a multitude of detail. You really expect all that stuff to stick and stay stuck? Like I said earlier, if they did their best and it fell off, I'd rather have a chance to reglue it myself than have them switch to too much glue. Something more major? I would've sent that switcher with the skewed eyes back. You can't expect them to get on top of a problem they're not aware of.
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They knew..That's why I took the photo..LOL.
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Can we really or do we really want importers to start opening every box as it comes off the boat? That sounds like lots of $$$. And extra handling is liable to bring on more problems than it fixes unless one is very careful with that.
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Easy question..Why not have a QC inspector at the plant to grab a random 3-4 dozen from the line? I worked assembly before and the QC inspectors did exactly that.
Every chunk of junk I get a photo is sent to the manufacturer-excuse me-the importer with these words:Got a QC problem here..That included the car with three of its four stirrups laying in the car's tray.
At the prices we are paying..Yes..I expect the car or engine to be as advertised-not a fixer upper-and anything less is unacceptable.
As far as glue a spot of glue on the backside of the stirrup(the part sticking out of the car body on the inside) would end the loose stirrup problem.
Ever wonder why those highly detailed LL P2K engines never had that issue or why Atlas cars and engines come as advertised?
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Post by cf7 on Jan 15, 2014 13:51:36 GMT -8
Regarding Blackstone, there is absolutely no way I will spend $75 on a boxcar. When they were $30-something, maybe. That was just a few short years ago. I have built my fair share of the Rail-Line kits and they are still fun to do. Too bad the trucks need to come from China, though.
I just prefer building my stuff. I can honestly say that I have absolutely ZERO rtr freight cars on my layout. Even the locos see new paint, etc.
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Post by Brakie on Jan 15, 2014 13:56:20 GMT -8
Larry, are you going to fix the headlights, also? That really detracts from the look of the loco. Chuck,the way those bulbs fits in the holes there's no way I can get 'em in there correctly with the limited use of my thumb and forefinger on my right hand.Its a two handed job. |
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Post by cf7 on Jan 15, 2014 14:03:01 GMT -8
Chuck,the way those bulbs fits in the holes there's no way I can get 'em in there correctly with the limited use of my thumb and forefinger on my right hand.Its a two handed job. Sorry to hear about that. I had an RTR CF7 that had the same problem and I ended up using a little shrink tubing on the bulbs. That provided a snug fit and they were centered in the openings. |
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Post by mlehman on Jan 15, 2014 15:50:23 GMT -8
Regarding Blackstone, there is absolutely no way I will spend $75 on a boxcar. When they were $30-something, maybe. That was just a few short years ago. I have built my fair share of the Rail-Line kits and they are still fun to do. Too bad the trucks need to come from China, though. I just prefer building my stuff. I can honestly say that I have absolutely ZERO rtr freight cars on my layout. Even the locos see new paint, etc. Chuck, I don't spend $75, either, but 20% off that. And that was the last run only. Earlier runs were all cheaper by varying amounts. Whatever one's personal interest or not in them, they've been a hit and thus bery, bery gud for HOn3 in general. The more, the merrier. I've done my fair share of kits, too, got 4 more RailLine boxes and then mine are finally done. As for everything needing to be kits, more power to you. I've got no quibble with those who do, used to do it myself when there was no choice. Now I have a choice and I've spent the time I do have building other stuff than 3000 series boxes. I'm sure when I go back to finish them off, they'll be fun again. Building them was starting to get boring, though. YMMV I'll be the first to admit my narrowgauge philosophy. It's easy and if it's not, make it easy. I think HOn3 should be just as accessible to anyone as HO standard gauge. Whether or not they do it is up to them. I work across a range of interests from Blackstone, open the box of all-but-perfection, to kits to installing sound in brass to scratchbuilding. It's all good, as I'm building a railroad here, not a museum, so whatever it takes that's easy is OK by me. |
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Post by mlehman on Jan 15, 2014 15:55:38 GMT -8
Easy question..Why not have a QC inspector at the plant to grab a random 3-4 dozen from the line? I worked assembly before and the QC inspectors did exactly that. Every chunk of junk I get a photo is sent to the manufacturer-excuse me-the importer with these words:Got a QC problem here..That included the car with three of its four stirrups laying in the car's tray. At the prices we are paying..Yes..I expect the car or engine to be as advertised-not a fixer upper-and anything less is unacceptable. As far as glue a spot of glue on the backside of the stirrup(the part sticking out of the car body on the inside) would end the loose stirrup problem. Ever wonder why those highly detailed LL P2K engines never had that issue or why Atlas cars and engines come as advertised? ----------------------------------------- Larry, I'm pretty certain everything is inspected before it goes in the box. I'm pretty certain those 3 loose grabs were attached in China. By the time they got to Ohio, they're lost their way a little, I suppose. Now, if you expect people here to travel and live there to inspect the contractor, things will get real expensive... If we lived in a perfect world, there would be no need for a Returns window |
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Post by Brakie on Jan 15, 2014 16:04:40 GMT -8
Seems to me if other companies can deliver cars and locomotives in perfect shape then there seems to be a on going CQ problem that isn't being address as it should be.
No returns here..I flat stop buying their products until the CQ issues is address.
I doubt if I'm the lone ranger.
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