|
|
Post by atsfan on Jan 15, 2014 17:40:53 GMT -8
Seems to me if other companies can deliver cars and locomotives in perfect shape then there seems to be a on going CQ problem that isn't being address as it should be. No returns here..I flat stop buying their products until the CQ issues is address. I doubt if I'm the lone ranger. Tangent has no Quality issues. Why is that? |
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Jan 15, 2014 17:43:46 GMT -8
Well said, I couldn't agree more. I can't believe that people that have such disdain for the hobby stay with it.  |
|
|
|
Post by Brakie on Jan 15, 2014 18:15:01 GMT -8
Seems to me if other companies can deliver cars and locomotives in perfect shape then there seems to be a on going CQ problem that isn't being address as it should be. No returns here..I flat stop buying their products until the CQ issues is address. I doubt if I'm the lone ranger. Tangent has no Quality issues. Why is that? Reread what I wrote:Seems to me if other companies can deliver cars and locomotives in perfect shape(snip) There is several companies that has no QC issues in delivery of their products.. |
|
|
|
Post by WP 257 on Jan 15, 2014 21:18:17 GMT -8
Tangent has quality issues, too, but I just suppose some of the folks on here give them a free pass. I have owned multiple Tangent cars that did have some issues--though in general their issues were less than I've experienced with some other brands, so they are among the best in overall quality, imo.
The last car I ordered from them was quite honestly a disappointment. One ICG 1979 orange scheme covered hopper arrived with multiple items broken or loose on it and the roofwalk loose in multiple places. I repaired it (not to my satisfaction) and was unhappy and asked them politely in an email that if I ordered any more covered hoppers from them, would they please inspect them before sending them out. They replied yes they would.
However, I just basically decided at that price point I simply didn't need any more, but did get two earlier run Tangent Wabash gondolas from a dealer that still had them (which were perfectly ok).
My point here is all the manufacturers do have their quality control issues. I have not had one single manufacturer with whom I have not had issues at one time or another.
That said--the overall level of detail and value built into most of the models is still better--even imo than in 2008. Also, doing an actual value of dollar spent analysis as I believe some have attempted to do, when I compare 1970's or 1980's products at those old prices to today, well, I personally feel today's stuff is a better value, meaning I do not feel the prices are out of line.
In my personal case I'll spend $60 or $70 on a metal plated passenger car before I'll spend the same $60 on some of the freight cars currently available.
Others will think differently.
As the detail increases, the likelihood of problems also increases, and I think that is unfortunately just part of the territory.
Even when the trains were actually made here in the U.S. there were QA/QC issues--but in that era more "modelers" took it upon themselves to fix the minor issues than perhaps is the case today.
I've now blathered far more than I should, so will now bow out of this topic to leave more room for others' opinions. Best wishes for a happy, healthy 2014 to all!
|
|
|
|
Post by cf7 on Jan 16, 2014 6:10:13 GMT -8
I'll be the first to admit my narrowgauge philosophy. It's easy and if it's not, make it easy. I think HOn3 should be just as accessible to anyone as HO standard gauge. Whether or not they do it is up to them. I work across a range of interests from Blackstone, open the box of all-but-perfection, to kits to installing sound in brass to scratchbuilding. It's all good, as I'm building a railroad here, not a museum, so whatever it takes that's easy is OK by me. I also think that HOn3 should be accessible for anyone, but I also believe that narrow gauge as a whole benefited the most when those who actually wanted to model it, had to actually model. This brought about numerous kits that were US made. I am so against RTR narrow gauge stuff it ain't even funny. Now-a-days, anyone can buy the Blackstone Unitrack (?!) and cars and a loco and call themselves a narrow gauge modeler. That is not the true spirit of narrow gauge. The NG modelers of old, knew how things on the prototype worked because if they wanted to model a particular car, they would have to do a little research to get it right. Not now...I'll just spend $75 and plop it on the track. Whoopeee! I also cannot stand RTR standard gauge HO. I would rather be the builder (less glue blobs and broken pieces) and have the satisfaction that I did it myself. By doing that, I can stay completely US made using Red Caboose kits, Tichy kits, etc., and by using Kadee trucks and couplers. Plus, I have never been one to have to have the latest release of anything. That helps me keep my sanity! |
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Jan 16, 2014 6:58:05 GMT -8
I also think that HOn3 should be accessible for anyone, but I also believe that narrow gauge as a whole benefited the most when those who actually wanted to model it, had to actually model. This brought about numerous kits that were US made. I am so against RTR narrow gauge stuff it ain't even funny. Now-a-days, anyone can buy the Blackstone Unitrack (?!) and cars and a loco and call themselves a narrow gauge modeler. That is not the true spirit of narrow gauge. The NG modelers of old, knew how things on the prototype worked because if they wanted to model a particular car, they would have to do a little research to get it right. Not now...I'll just spend $75 and plop it on the track. Whoopeee! I also cannot stand RTR standard gauge HO. I would rather be the builder (less glue blobs and broken pieces)... cf7, I've heard this argument before, that somehow RTR infringes on the purity of narrowgauge. I have no quibble with sticking to building kits as a personal philosophy. After all, before kits came along were the scratchbuilders, who also said that kit thang was diluting the true narrowgauge vital juices...  No one's RTR takes away anyone's ability to build kits, scratchbuild or whatever. If you've abandoned HO because of RTR, I suppose you might want to start thinking about where you're going next, because RTR HOn3 is not going away. Which would be a tragedy, because most likely we will be seeing more kits become available as those modeling HOn3 grow in numbers. We'll certainly see kits stay in production that otherwise would've fallen by the wayside due to lack of sales. Blackstone will cover those cars in RTR that are numerous and fundamentally similar. They stick mostly to what's prototype. But there will still be plenty to choose from in the way of kits and anything you can scratch up. So I guess I don't agree with your assertion that by limiting HOn3 to kit building it "benefited" those who want to model narrowgauge. Besides, the RTR pony has already left the barn. I hope it hasn't ruined your fun. It certainly hasn't mine, as I look forward to having time to build, both kit and scratch, what I want to, not what I have to just to make up a decent sized train. In fact, my argument is, if you like the idea of people building kits, there are more people doing that right now because of Blackstone and its fostering the HOn3 market as a whole. |
|
|
|
Post by cf7 on Jan 16, 2014 7:16:48 GMT -8
No one's RTR takes away anyone's ability to build kits, scratchbuild or whatever. If you've abandoned HO because of RTR, I suppose you might want to start thinking about where you're going next, because RTR HOn3 is not going away. Which would be a tragedy, because most likely we will be seeing more kits become available as those modeling HOn3 grow in numbers. We'll certainly see kits stay in production that otherwise would've fallen by the wayside due to lack of sales. Blackstone will cover those cars in RTR that are numerous and fundamentally similar. They stick mostly to what's prototype. But there will still be plenty to choose from in the way of kits and anything you can scratch up. So I guess I don't agree with your assertion that by limiting HOn3 to kit building it "benefited" those who want to model narrowgauge. Besides, the RTR pony has already left the barn. I hope it hasn't ruined your fun. It certainly hasn't mine, as I look forward to having time to build, both kit and scratch, what I want to, not what I have to just to make up a decent sized train. In fact, my argument is, if you like the idea of people building kits, there are more people doing that right now because of Blackstone and its fostering the HOn3 market as a whole. Mike, I have not abandoned standard HO...in fact that is what I am building my current layout in. I will not have any RTR on it and NO China anything. That is, unless Kadee or a couple others move there... You're right, RTR HOn3 is not going to go away. That was once my scale of choice, but no more. I am trying to decide if I want to do my narrow gauge modeling in Sn2 or On2. I realize I will need to scratchbuild a lot in either one of those, and that is part of the appeal of them. I just like my narrow gauge to be unique, and building things in a scale/gauge that has been diluted with RTR is zero fun. One good thing about all of this, the older I get HOn3 is not as easy to see as it once was. So, another advantage of going to a larger scale! |
|
|
|
Post by ambluco on Jan 16, 2014 7:35:05 GMT -8
|
|
|
|
Post by lvrr325 on Jan 16, 2014 11:12:30 GMT -8
Atlas diesels always came RTR, be they the 1970s Roco stuff or the 1980s Kato stuff. But they were supposed to be a step up from Athearn; the 70s stuff was good enough for Con-Cor to sell it again in the late 1980s (interestingly, not RTR though, I have a NIB Conrail GP38 or GP40 here and you install the handrails).
|
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Jan 16, 2014 13:40:07 GMT -8
Mike, I have not abandoned standard HO...in fact that is what I am building my current layout in. I will not have any RTR on it and NO China anything. That is, unless Kadee or a couple others move there... You're right, RTR HOn3 is not going to go away. That was once my scale of choice, but no more. I am trying to decide if I want to do my narrow gauge modeling in Sn2 or On2. I realize I will need to scratchbuild a lot in either one of those, and that is part of the appeal of them. I just like my narrow gauge to be unique, and building things in a scale/gauge that has been diluted with RTR is zero fun. One good thing about all of this, the older I get HOn3 is not as easy to see as it once was. So, another advantage of going to a larger scale! Chuck, Good to know you're still hanging with us in HO.  I like my narrowgauge unique, too, so I build stuff that never existed, hack diesels, and repaint/re-purpose somewhat exotic NG items. They range from OZ, which mysteriously disappeared during WWII...  ...to this little beastie, which I regauged, recouplered, and repainted, along with cobbling together the train behind it.  And then I do prototype stuff, too, but everyone knows what that looks like. I'm a member of one of the better HOn3 groups on the internet for encouraging scratchbuilding. A number of MMRs and other old hands who share and help each other. One of the more interesting developments is one of the MMRs has done a lot of hacking on Blackstone gear: working bells, shoveling firemen, brakemen waving lanterns from the caboose. I know there's a different thread where people are thrashing the MMR thing out. I've already said my piece, but I know there's lots of ferment out there to update the MMR to better reflect people's interests in the hobby. So there's major skill sets being applied that looks at RTR stuff as raw materials. To each their own. I personally think the wider range of interests we have involved, the healthier it is for the particular scale/gauge combination. But I can see wanting to do things no one else does, too. You might think even bigger in your quest, as there's some interesting ultranarrow stuff done in F and G scales using O, S, and HO track and mechanisms. Of course, you may want to lay your own. |
|
|
|
Post by railfan4life on Jan 16, 2014 14:56:35 GMT -8
When purchasing on-line through a deep discounter, one of the things you aren't paying for is the ability to actually look at the car or engine before buying it. When you're buying something from a hobby store, you can see if a step is broken or if something else isn't quite right and then pick up a different model that isn't damaged. You pay for this service by getting less of a discount. The ability to do this is something that is going away as the hobby moves away from hobby stores to on-line sales. If you expect everything you buy at close to 50% off to be perfect, you will be disappointed.
Every manufacture in every industry has products that make it to market that don't meet their quality standards. What separates the different manufactures is what their quality standards actually are and how often a below standard product makes it out their doors. There are some brands that I will buy sight unseen and other brands that I usually won't. If I buy a brand that has spotty quality control sight unseen, then I'm going to have more problems than if I don't. Even if I can return it for replacement or refund, its still a pain. Unfortunately, some modelers don't have the option of a local hobby store to buy from and are stuck crossing their fingers.
|
|
|
|
Post by jlwii2000 on Jan 16, 2014 16:25:52 GMT -8
I also noticed that Athearn SD70ACes are on sale through Modeltrainstuff.com for $169. So I guess my original argument is invalid. I'm man enough to admit I may have looked too deeply into the sale prices on MTH's SD70ACes but I had not seen prices that low in a few years on the stuff I model.
|
|
|
|
Post by SantaFeJim on Jan 16, 2014 16:33:56 GMT -8
I read this entire topic. I have heard just about EVERY POSSIBLE opinion and point of view. Some made good strong statements to support their views, others ... not so much. IMHO sometimes the timing and the price are right. For me that happened yesterday when I jumped on 3 of the Athearn Genesis Santa Fe GP-50's with Tsunami sound systems. These units carry an MSRP of $269.98 and Factory Direct Trains is blowing them out for 161.99. In total I saved $323.97. Just too good to pass up. If anybody is interested, here is the link. factorydirecttrains.com/genesisgp50.aspx?utm_source=delivra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=1%2D15%2D14 |
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Jan 16, 2014 17:44:25 GMT -8
I read this entire topic. I have heard just about EVERY POSSIBLE opinion and point of view. Some made good strong statements to support their views, others ... not so much. IMHO sometimes the timing and the price are right. For me that happened yesterday when I jumped of 3 of the Athearn Genesis Santa Fe GP-50's with Tsunami sound systems. These units carry an MSRP of $269.98 and Factory Direct Trains is blowing them out for 161.99. In total I saved $323.97. Just too good to pass up. If anybody is interested, here is the link. factorydirecttrains.com/genesisgp50.aspx?utm_source=delivra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=1%2D15%2D14Darn. These were the only units in recent memory that I went out and bought when they came out. I had to have them to pull TOFC trains. Usually I wait for these things. But I wavered. Oh well. Right now I am buying very little to pay off bills and do some construction. |
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Jan 16, 2014 17:45:27 GMT -8
I also noticed that Athearn SD70ACes are on sale through Modeltrainstuff.com for $169. So I guess my original argument is invalid. I'm man enough to admit I may have looked too deeply into the sale prices on MTH's SD70ACes but I had not seen prices that low in a few years on the stuff I model. I miss the picture of you with your son or other nice liiking youngster. |
|
|
|
Post by jlwii2000 on Jan 16, 2014 17:48:52 GMT -8
I also noticed that Athearn SD70ACes are on sale through Modeltrainstuff.com for $169. So I guess my original argument is invalid. I'm man enough to admit I may have looked too deeply into the sale prices on MTH's SD70ACes but I had not seen prices that low in a few years on the stuff I model. I miss the picture of you with your son or other nice liiking youngster.
Yep, that's my son. I just mixed the avatar up a bit.
|
|
