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Post by keystonefarm on Oct 18, 2014 8:03:27 GMT -8
One thing to remember about the Hi Ad's they were designed by Bowser for the C-630's and the 636's . So on a 630 the walkway needed to be the 3-4'' higher than the tri mounts. So thats why the mounting boss on top of truck is thicker to add the height. 628,630 and 636 all used the same frames with the same overall length . So Bowser could use the same basic frame for all 3 engines with two truck options. Putting lower pilot edges and snowplows at real scale heights off of railhead almost guarantees they will hit something on a model railroad. I would rather a manufacturer jack up a loco a bit to clear things than to have to file down lower pilot edges and snowplow bottoms. ---- Ken
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chuckc
Junior Member
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Post by chuckc on Oct 18, 2014 10:09:16 GMT -8
afbombers, that was me. I just haven't gotten the pic of the painted frame with the extensions.  I measured the roof height on my model compared to the drawings published in the 1972 BN annual. Prototype measures 15' 1-1/4" or just under 53mm in HO. I got just under 53mm.  Looks like the problem is that the actual sideframes are too low. I don't know the prototype wheel size, but I'm wondering if it's possible the wheels are smaller on the model than the prototype. Maybe some larger NWSL wheels and filing the block on top of the trucks would "fix" it better than my fix Looking at the top pic and looking at the three models that I received it appears to me that the base of the model is warped. At this point it's hard to check any measurements for accuracy because the thing is warped up to ~ 4 - 6 scale inches over the cab. |
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chuckc
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by chuckc on Oct 18, 2014 10:11:14 GMT -8
...Putting lower pilot edges and snowplows at real scale heights off of railhead almost guarantees they will hit something on a model railroad. I would rather a manufacturer jack up a loco a bit to clear things than to have to file down lower pilot edges and snowplow bottoms. ---- Ken Was this portion of your post sarcasm? |
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 18, 2014 10:15:33 GMT -8
...Putting lower pilot edges and snowplows at real scale heights off of railhead almost guarantees they will hit something on a model railroad. I would rather a manufacturer jack up a loco a bit to clear things than to have to file down lower pilot edges and snowplow bottoms. ---- Ken Was this portion of your post sarcasm? Ask the guys who regularly run brass how those pilots that just clear the rails work for them ! Doesn't take much of a dip for some of them to scrape - and with brass, that means a short ! Mark. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 18, 2014 10:44:08 GMT -8
Or as some people call it, a "track fault detector". Ed |
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Post by afbombers on Oct 18, 2014 23:20:23 GMT -8
afbombers, that was me. I just haven't gotten the pic of the painted frame with the extensions. I measured the roof height on my model compared to the drawings published in the 1972 BN annual. Prototype measures 15' 1-1/4" or just under 53mm in HO. I got just under 53mm. Looks like the problem is that the actual sideframes are too low. I don't know the prototype wheel size, but I'm wondering if it's possible the wheels are smaller on the model than the prototype. Maybe some larger NWSL wheels and filing the block on top of the trucks would "fix" it better than my fix Looking at the top pic and looking at the three models that I received it appears to me that the base of the model is warped. At this point it's hard to check any measurements for accuracy because the thing is warped up to ~ 4 - 6 scale inches over the cab. I took the cab off and those step boxes will sit flat on the walkway with very little effort however when I put the cab back on the walkway they angle back up. So either the tabs on the cab are bowing up the walkway itself or the paint is messing with how they are seated. All 3 of mine came this way. |
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Post by carrman on Oct 19, 2014 7:26:51 GMT -8
Without even diving into the dimensional issues, I can honestly say the 3 I have here with sound run badly. With the back EMF turned on they run slow. With it turned off, they run faster, but sometimes need tapped to get them running again when you change direction. I love how good they sound, but the running characteristics suck mightily, and this is after I broke them in for over an hour each on roller stands. Same motor, same decoder as the C430, yet they run terribly. I'm waiting to hear from Lee English now.
Dave
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Post by JohnJ on Oct 19, 2014 7:43:16 GMT -8
My DC unit runs smoothly right out of the box, but does run substantially slower than my other Bowser Centuries. Hope that doesn't cause issues, but I ran a C636-C630-C630 lashup on PC coal empties last night and all seemed well.
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Post by packer on Oct 19, 2014 8:35:22 GMT -8
I think these "new" motors in these C636s have a fairly long break-in time. Mine ran decent, albeit slow, out of the box. I've been running it for a while and it seems to still be picking up speed compared to the 2 engines I MU'd it to.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Oct 19, 2014 8:47:48 GMT -8
It may help to break units in under load, both forward and reverse. This can allow mating surfaces to knock off some small surface imperfections. If the units show substantial improvement, cleaning and relubing the drive train can remove any suspended impurities. Not unlike the first oil change on a car.
Using an ammeter can help quantify improvement with break-in. I'd guess using true RMS measurements if using DCC.
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 19, 2014 11:00:21 GMT -8
Try taking the trucks out and see how well they free roll ....
Mark.
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Post by Chad on Oct 19, 2014 15:06:15 GMT -8
Well I bought one the other day. Nice unit out of the box it seemed to run fine but is jerky and rattles. Had the same problem with another Bowser 6 axle unit. Distracting to say the least. Perhaps a little running time will improve. After running it for a little while I decided to follow the recommendation of another and file down the truck mounting pads a bit. Put everything back together, install Sergent couplers and put on the rails. Used my caliper and measured .8355 inches from top of rail to top of front deck. SO if my math is correct I am still about 1" to high but close enough. I also added some spacers inside the fuel tank to lower it a bit. Looks better, now to get it to run better.
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Post by carrman on Oct 20, 2014 5:45:47 GMT -8
Lifted from Train Orders:
I wish it was just the grease. In the other thread, I detailed my dis-assembly and diagnosis of the stiff drive train. Here it is for those that missed it:
I cleaned out all the grease and reassembled the gear tower, which was a pain as mentioned earlier. With the axles removed, using a dental pick, I tried to rotate the three idler gears between the center and inboard axle. They would barely rotate. The worm gear and idler for the outboard axle rotated just fine. This occurred on both trucks. I then disassembled the trucks again and, using a knife-edged needle file, filed between every gear tooth of the three idler gears to increase clearances. There were quite a few teeth with burrs. I reassembled the gear towers with the axles, lubricated them with LaBell Teflon gear grease cut with some Mobile 1 5W-30, then rolled them on a sheet of glass. They rolled better but still had a lot of resistance.
Finally today, I put the loco on the test stand rollers and ran it for an hour in each direction for a good break-in. Playing around with CV's 2, 3 and 4 seems to have cured the problem for the most part. It still has a little hitch in its' giddyup when starting, but is not noticeable when lashed up to an Atlas C425 and a Genesis F45.
Here it is, lowered, broken-in and running in a lash-up. Finally. Hopefully, the two SP&S/BN patch units coming from Train Shop in Santa Clara, CA in the next shipment will be better than this one. One reason to support your LHS. At least you can test-run before you buy. The BN unit was an impulse buy from MB Klein.
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Post by bnsf971 on Oct 20, 2014 6:08:20 GMT -8
About the stiff truck gears, does anybody else remember the old school method of removing the trucks, cleaning out the grease and oil, putting some Topol on the gears and rotating parts, and running the engine? The tooth polish will help polish any burrs or rough spots.
After a while running, dismantle the trucks again, clean out the polish, then re-lube and reassemble.
This was mainly done back in the days of brass gears, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't work now.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Oct 20, 2014 8:18:07 GMT -8
Are Topol, Pearl Drops and other abrasive toothpaste still available? One also needs to remember that formulas change while brand names remain. To wit, www.himmelgroup.com/brands/Topol-Smokers-Toothpolish.htmlIn any case, if there is visible flash or something on molded gears, break-in with or without fine abrasives would likely not help. Machining imperfections vs. casting/molding artifacts are sort of different animals. Pictures are (for me anyway) better help than descriptions. Would always request them from customers or field service folks in my working engineer days. Gear design itself can get pretty involved. A lot of Chinese vendors I worked with would frequently copy all manner of mechanical and electrical things without understanding why things were designed the way they were. This often lead to some head scratching on our end. " what the heck are they thinking?" was heard more than once |
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Post by lvrr325 on Oct 20, 2014 9:27:52 GMT -8
3 seconds on Google says yes, Pearl Drops is still available.
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Post by carrman on Oct 20, 2014 12:44:25 GMT -8
One more thing, check the bearings strips on the axle ends for being too tight on the axle. One poster on Bowsers FB page observed and corrected this. Seems like the running problems are all in the trucks and the weak motor aggravates it.
Dave
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 20, 2014 14:37:57 GMT -8
The frames halves are too small. They were pulled from the die too soon and a small amount of shrinkage occurred which is what is causing the gear binding. These are the same gear sets as the 630. Put the 636 gears in the 630 frame, they will be fine. Put the 630 gears in the 636 frame, they will bind. Use your calipers and compare the axle hole spacing between the 630 and the 636 - the 636 is slightly tighter.
Mark.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Oct 20, 2014 15:28:04 GMT -8
Interesting. If correct, running new side frames should be a pretty good fix. Penn State Erie had an excellent plastics manufacturing center (as of 10 yrs ago, anyway) that was available to help PA mfg tune their process. Don't know if the 636 was shot here or in China. Anyone know? Link for PSU/Behrend plastics help for businesses, if anyone wants to pass it on to Bowser psbehrend.psu.edu/community-and-workforce-programs/business-industry/plastics |
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Post by craigz on Oct 20, 2014 15:54:24 GMT -8
The frames halves are too small. They were pulled from the die too soon and a small amount of shrinkage occurred which is what is causing the gear binding. These are the same gear sets as the 630. Put the 636 gears in the 630 frame, they will be fine. Put the 630 gears in the 636 frame, they will bind. Use your calipers and compare the axle hole spacing between the 630 and the 636 - the 636 is slightly tighter. Mark. By 'frame halves' I trust you mean the two halves of the truck gearbox? The only reason I ask is for clarification that it's not the truck sideframes but the actual 'guts' of the truck... |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Oct 20, 2014 16:37:26 GMT -8
Without jumping on the 'this is the problem' bandwagon too soon, plastics do vary in shrink rate. Not only between different plastics, but also in different axes for the same plastic (relative to mold flow) For Delrin (often used for trucks, no idea what is being used in the 636) www2.dupont.com/Plastics/en_US/assets/downloads/design/DELDGe.pdfCAD programs have greatly benefited the model RR industry. However, capturing a design is one thing. Making tooling is quite another. Plastic injection molding 'moldflow' software is expensive. Often more expensive than the seat of mechanical CAD it works with. It has been my experience that many, many designs in all industries do not do moldflow analysis in-house. Moldflow can predict some material issues, and help the designer build compensation into tooling. If, and I reiterate if, this is a confirmed problem, there are process and material tweaks which may work. If the tooling is the same for 630 and 636, hopefully this can be quickly addressed. |
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Post by carrman on Oct 20, 2014 18:24:51 GMT -8
So, we have tight gears which I've seen confirmed by two people, tight bearing strips I've seen confirmed by one person, and gears with flash and burrs in them I've seen a couple people talk about. Wonder if Bowser should just get a bunch of replacement trucks made.
Dave
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 20, 2014 21:46:37 GMT -8
So, we have tight gears which I've seen confirmed by two people, tight bearing strips I've seen confirmed by one person, and gears with flash and burrs in them I've seen a couple people talk about. Wonder if Bowser should just get a bunch of replacement trucks made. Dave That might be enough to restore some goodwill and faith in Bowser. After the debacle that has been (and continues to be) this C636 release, I'm definitely not going to be first in line to buy one of the GMD SD40-2s. |
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 21, 2014 5:28:10 GMT -8
So, we have tight gears which I've seen confirmed by two people, tight bearing strips I've seen confirmed by one person, and gears with flash and burrs in them I've seen a couple people talk about. Wonder if Bowser should just get a bunch of replacement trucks made. Dave That might be enough to restore some goodwill and faith in Bowser. After the debacle that has been (and continues to be) this C636 release, I'm definitely not going to be first in line to buy one of the GMD SD40-2s. That's the equivalent of saying "I'm not going to buy a 2016 Mustang because they are having too many problems with the 2015 Fusion" ! *shaking head* .... Mark. |
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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 21, 2014 5:52:31 GMT -8
That is funny because every single engine or rail car is not perfect or will there ever will be.. I respect the fellas that can point certain stuff either small or drastically wrong but I will not misconstrue information being presented as a band wagon hater club because a manufacture either it be athearn bowser kato whatever made changes to reduce cost or give a supplier a chance to make a buck (that stupid retarded weak cant pull crap mabuchi motor) by offering to the hobby what we normal common folk can't do.
I'm not a good enougher or tinplater or whatever but acknowledging one's fault or mistake is one thing but to drag them down so far under because you are not pleased is not what this hobby or any hobby for that matter is about.
You can jump all over me if you want but dang guys sometimes you guys act all hateful like you were left at your computer with a poopy diaper
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Post by carrman on Oct 21, 2014 6:05:31 GMT -8
You're off base here. The C636 has shown in living color the risk in pre-ordering sight unseen a brand new engine. I'm glad I cancelled my 3, but I wish my friend had cancelled his. Now, I'd like to help Bowser out by presenting them with all the information uncovered so far. Even so, I sure won't be in the front of the line to preorder anything never made before.
Dave
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Post by alcors32 on Oct 21, 2014 6:11:43 GMT -8
That is funny because every single engine or rail car is not perfect or will there ever will be.. I respect the fellas that can point certain stuff either small or drastically wrong but I will not misconstrue information being presented as a band wagon hater club because a manufacture either it be athearn bowser kato whatever made changes to reduce cost or give a supplier a chance to make a buck (that stupid retarded weak cant pull crap mabuchi motor) by offering to the hobby what we normal common folk can't do. I'm not a good enougher or tinplater or whatever but acknowledging one's fault or mistake is one thing but to drag them down so far under because you are not pleased is not what this hobby or any hobby for that matter is about. You can jump all over me if you want but dang guys sometimes you guys act all hateful like you were left at your computer with a poopy diaper So over 2 hundred dollars a unit I for one think you are way off base. Gary |
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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 21, 2014 6:54:11 GMT -8
You're off base here. The C636 has shown in living color the risk in pre-ordering sight unseen a brand new engine. I'm glad I cancelled my 3, but I wish my friend had cancelled his. Now, I'd like to help Bowser out by presenting them with all the information uncovered so far. Even so, I sure won't be in the front of the line to preorder anything never made before. Dave You have been pretty darn fair with your statements and have kept facts presentable when needed.. I will never preorder anything and I do agree for those who are ticked in what they received as false hope basically.. The problem I have is every singe time a new product is released something or everything about the product is wrong and then all of a sudden there is disdain hatred for the manufacture and everything they make or ever will make is junk.. It's how the manufacture listens to our gripes to see if they improve upon or not is what's important I' might be off base I don't know I wasn't seeking approval either |
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Post by carrman on Oct 21, 2014 7:34:52 GMT -8
Well I'm trying to just stay factual, in hopes a total solutiuon can be reached with the participation of the manufacturer. And, as far as not pre-ordering, that extends to all manufacturers for me. I'll pre-order re-runs, but never anything all new.
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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 21, 2014 7:47:20 GMT -8
Atleast Bowser has listened about the motor debacle...
IM and Atlas are either in denial or havnt heard loud enough..
I do believe some truth in the truck molds were cooled down too fast or there wasnt enough dwell between injections.. I diecast zink aluminum magnesium and shrinkage and tolerance is a big factor so something got rushed to make the gearing so tight
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