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Post by carrman on Oct 21, 2014 8:00:00 GMT -8
Atlas IS investingating the motor situation as we speak. Rob Pasani is over in China right now.
Dave
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 21, 2014 8:37:59 GMT -8
That might be enough to restore some goodwill and faith in Bowser. After the debacle that has been (and continues to be) this C636 release, I'm definitely not going to be first in line to buy one of the GMD SD40-2s. That's the equivalent of saying "I'm not going to buy a 2016 Mustang because they are having too many problems with the 2015 Fusion" ! *shaking head* .... Mark. No, I'm saying Bowser botched the release of their new locomotive. I'm not going to be one of the guinea pigs who finds out first hand how badly the next one is botched. How hard is this to understand? |
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 21, 2014 13:59:09 GMT -8
That's the equivalent of saying "I'm not going to buy a 2016 Mustang because they are having too many problems with the 2015 Fusion" ! *shaking head* .... Mark. No, I'm saying Bowser botched the release of their new locomotive. I'm not going to be one of the guinea pigs who finds out first hand how badly the next one is botched. How hard is this to understand? The 636 chassis / drive was cobbled together from the 630 by what sounds to be a rather incompetent tool maker in the US who should have been dropped long before the project got as far as it did. The C430 was all new from the ground up, designed and tooled in China - we have all seen those results. The new SD40-2's are also all new from the ground up and done right. They have a new motor that is very powerful and quiet. It has a new eight function decoder with all class lights individually lit and controllable via functions. Even the deck mount ditch lights even have SMD LEDs IN the casting making as bright as the headlights - no more light tubes. These are all new and have not come down the same path as the 636's. If you don't want to buy any, I'm sure it will be no skin off Bowser's nose as these engines are going to do really well. Mark. |
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Post by carrman on Oct 21, 2014 14:55:27 GMT -8
Bowsers listening, and they are working to overcome the running problems. Have I been critical of Bowser in the past? You bet, but Lee's making honest efforts to resolve it.
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Post by cnwfan on Oct 21, 2014 16:06:22 GMT -8
Any fixes or resolution to the known issues are probably too late for for some. There is also the issue of the circuit board eliminating the 8 pin plug (which they were advertised to have in the announcement), and only going with the 21 pin. That, along with the other issues, means that my friend's IC units are going back.
It also makes me leery of anything new that Bowser might produce that might fit in my operational scheme.
Kurt Kruse
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chuckc
Junior Member
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Post by chuckc on Oct 21, 2014 16:31:37 GMT -8
Looking at the top pic and looking at the three models that I received it appears to me that the base of the model is warped. At this point it's hard to check any measurements for accuracy because the thing is warped up to ~ 4 - 6 scale inches over the cab. I took the cab off and those step boxes will sit flat on the walkway with very little effort however when I put the cab back on the walkway they angle back up. So either the tabs on the cab are bowing up the walkway itself or the paint is messing with how they are seated. All 3 of mine came this way. Are your walkways still bowed or were you to correct that problem? Did you find the that bowing walkway was the cause of the elevated cab problem? |
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Post by Chad on Oct 21, 2014 17:00:59 GMT -8
I like my BN unit. I already lowered it by filing down the truck pads but still do not like the way it sounds. Not the LokSound decoder the rattle from the trucks when running. So, this Sunday I am going to remove the trucks, tear them down, clean all the lube out of them, smooth the gear teeth and reassemble using gear oil. I hope that will cure the only issue I have with them. As for the fuel tank, I lowered mine a bit and since Bowser is going to make a corrected version someday I am fine with that.
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Post by carrman on Oct 21, 2014 17:10:34 GMT -8
Chad, Lee English recommends taking the trucks apart and ream the gear holes with a #51 drill. The most important holes are the 3 gears between the center axle and the axle without the gear tower, and the hole for the large gear.
Dave
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Post by Chad on Oct 21, 2014 17:25:08 GMT -8
Chad, Lee English recommends taking the trucks apart and ream the gear holes with a #51 drill. The most important holes are the 3 gears between the center axle and the axle without the gear tower, and the hole for the large gear. Dave Thanks Dave, appreciate it. I will make sure to do that. |
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Post by lvrr325 on Oct 21, 2014 18:19:31 GMT -8
Well, you can add up another problem on this run of C636s. I ordered in four sound units for a customer and he reports today his Penn Central came through as a non-sound unit.
Now on the C430s I got a sound unit in place of a DCC ready, so I knew about the potential for that, but since he'd paid in advance I didn't open them up to check, I didn't want to chance any damage to them. So in they came and out they went.
I think I can get him an exchange, but he emailed Bowser to see what they tell him, to see if they'll just send him the sound decoder/board and he'll change it out. I know in the past they've been plenty generous, an OOP kit I had that only had lettering on one side, they replaced for me with a complete other kit, because they had no parts for the OOP kit at all.
However it works up I'll pass it on here.
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Post by icrr3067 on Oct 21, 2014 18:35:00 GMT -8
Well I just got my two IC units and I have to say after all of this I was quite skeptic that the 636 were going to be really bad. But after I got them and looked them over they are very nice. The height is right there at 16'7/8" according to my IC engine diagram. There are little "IC" things that I'm going to have to do to them. I haven't ran them yet to see how that goes, but I'll just wait for the new fuel tank and I will have two very nice IC odd balls.
Just my two cents
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Post by eh49 on Oct 21, 2014 18:36:26 GMT -8
Well, you can add up another problem on this run of C636s. I ordered in four sound units for a customer and he reports today his Penn Central came through as a non-sound unit. Well, being I bought a non-sound and when test running it I found it had very loud drive train....Yep, sure enough it was a DCC/sound unit packed in a non-sound box. So, I guess we know where his sound unit went. |
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 21, 2014 19:04:45 GMT -8
No, I'm saying Bowser botched the release of their new locomotive. I'm not going to be one of the guinea pigs who finds out first hand how badly the next one is botched. How hard is this to understand? The 636 chassis / drive was cobbled together from the 630 by what sounds to be a rather incompetent tool maker in the US who should have been dropped long before the project got as far as it did. The C430 was all new from the ground up, designed and tooled in China - we have all seen those results. The new SD40-2's are also all new from the ground up and done right. They have a new motor that is very powerful and quiet. It has a new eight function decoder with all class lights individually lit and controllable via functions. Even the deck mount ditch lights even have SMD LEDs IN the casting making as bright as the headlights - no more light tubes. These are all new and have not come down the same path as the 636's. If you don't want to buy any, I'm sure it will be no skin off Bowser's nose as these engines are going to do really well. Mark. If that's Bowser's attitude, it's a really bad attitude to have, as long as I'm in the business of buying model trains and they are in the business of selling them. Besides, these engines were going to do really well, but given the multitude of problems with them, is that still the case? Will buyers who wanted to see how the initial units looked and operated still be willing to buy them on the next release? As far as the originating factory is concerned vis a vis the C636 and the GMD SD40-2, I'm just a customer. Should I have to be aware of the inner workings of a model train company to make a yes or no decision on whether to buy the model? I haven't had to be in the know to buy models I enjoy from Atlas, Athearn and Kato. In my opinion, if there is a doubt, there is no doubt. So far we have a problem with the way the model looks because, "well, we took a shortcut and used the existing fuel tank." And now we have a problem with the way it runs because, "well, we took a shortcut casting the gearboxes." I'm noticing a pattern. What else did they take a shortcut on? I'm glad Bowser is getting a handle on the problems with the C636. But my point is Bowser shouldn't have let it get so far out of hand. Regardless of where these models were designed and/or manufactured, any semblance of a quality control program would have caught these problems. The same non-existent quality control program will also fail to catch any problems with the GMD SD40-2 built in China. Past experience can be an indicator of future results. If this is how the C636 release is going, I hope to be surprised when the GMD release doesn't have any problems. But I will leave that discovery to Bowser's quality control team or the first round of customers, whichever comes first. |
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Post by lvrr325 on Oct 21, 2014 19:20:12 GMT -8
Well, being I bought a non-sound and when test running it I found it had very loud drive train....Yep, sure enough it was a DCC/sound unit packed in a non-sound box. So, I guess we know where his sound unit went. That's odd, the defaults on those, if you get a sound by mistake, the sound should be turned on so it's obvious. At least with the C430 I got, when I went to test it on DC, the bell rang and prime mover start sound played, so I switched to a DCC control and all the sounds were working. |
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Post by kcjones on Oct 21, 2014 19:33:43 GMT -8
Lowered my IC unit..looks a lot better. Can wait for new fuel tank...ok with that. But... The new motor ain't goin fit!!
Now I'm p o'ed. I've only got a room size layout, but gee wiz. 1 MTH sd70ace can out pull 2 of these with ease. Would it be safe to add just a little extra weight? And now you post the suggestion about reaming out the gear holes. That means I've got to take those@&%#& gearboxes apart again. Reminds me of one of those Chinese wooden puzzles I use to buy at Stuckey's when I was a kid.
JL
Vancouver. WA
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 21, 2014 21:21:52 GMT -8
Regarding the quality control, I'm not going to dispute the fuel tank or the thousandths of an inch different aspects may or may not be correct, but regarding the truck frames - the preproduction version was fine. The part was allowed to cool properly on the test shot and thus was fine. Once production started, who-ever was doing the mold injection started pulling the parts too quick resulting in the ever so slight shrinkage of the part which in turn is causing the gears to mesh too tight.
You can "blame" Bowser for this, but in reality, it's the manufacturer who screwed up and Bowser takes the blame. When the test shots show no problem, you would think / assume the rest of the run would be the same. Unfortunately, by the time the problem is discovered, they are done and already shipped to you .... who finds the problem.
Mark.
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 21, 2014 22:53:12 GMT -8
You can "blame" Bowser for this, but in reality, it's the manufacturer who screwed up and Bowser takes the blame. So a subcontractor screwed up? For those of us who aren't in contact with Bowser or at least intimately aware of their manufacturing processes, how are we supposed to know who the manufacturer to blame is? These C636 models are Bowser products, no? As far as I'm concerned, they have Bowser's name on them so they are Bowser's products. Am I out of line in reaching that conclusion? |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Oct 22, 2014 3:10:11 GMT -8
You can "blame" Bowser for this, but in reality, it's the manufacturer who screwed up and Bowser takes the blame. So a subcontractor screwed up? For those of us who aren't in contact with Bowser or at least intimately aware of their manufacturing processes, how are we supposed to know who the manufacturer to blame is? These C636 models are Bowser products, no? As far as I'm concerned, they have Bowser's name on them so they are Bowser's products. Am I out of line in reaching that conclusion? Perhaps it would be useful to read a little about the process and companies behind the models; www.trolleyville.com/tv/times/may2008/headline04.html
novirobot.com/2013/05/18/jonathan-werner-like-it-or-not-globalization-is-here/
Yes, that is the same Bowser Mfg. That company they are standing in front of in the articles is Sanda Kan. Why is that important? Read on: www.trainmaster.ch/Y-807.htm
Yes, that is our same Jason. This is Kader: www.kader.com/our_business/manufacturing_services.htmlNot necessary reading, but typical company drama in the financial reports ("we lost money and shed a ton of workforce, but administration and management remained stable")www.kader.com/investor_relations/financial_reports.html
Back on topic, the economies here and in China suck. No idea who Bowser used for the 636, but not particularly surprised if there are hiccups in continual re-sourcing. I lived it with Chinese suppliers in a different industry. Bowser has been developing some in-house molding capability: www.bowser-trains.com/bowsernews.html
Does this mean some or all of the 636 was shot in-house? No idea, and I am not going to pester them. Since others have been in touch with Lee, am sure they are busy looking into it. What I will say is the resins used for the body and trucks are likely different. Probably an ABS for the body, maybe an ABS/PC blend if there are some impact resistant parts. Probably an acetal like Delrin for the trucks and gears, where other engineering properties are more important (wear - resistance, etc) Typically you do not run different resins in the same machine in a production environment. Note that these resins have very different molding properties. What works for one will not work for the other. In my professional experience, both designing projects and overseeing prototype and production, we had a handful balancing everything. I had domestic prototype and production subcontractors in Ohio and Minnesota who did phenomenal work, but were expensive. I had overseas subcontractors whose quality ran from very good to unusable. In every case where management had no engineering background, we used Chinese vendors. Then we'd get beat up because quality sucked. Where we used US vendors, we'd get beat up because cost was too high. Often we would wind up having to go to 100% inspection, which drove costs through the roof. Mold design and tooling is not cheap. Payback time on model railroad tooling I would not hazard a guess on, as it is very volume sensitive. This is low volume stuff. I did everything from low volume product design (hundreds / year) to high volume (> 1 million / year). Completely different worlds and ability to amortize design and tooling expense. I appreciate the time and efforts of mfg in the model RR industry tremendously. They’re not getting rich off the margins for the products we are getting. If there are problems with a model, we owe it to them the opportunity to get things right. Let them build their knowledge base and hone their processes. If they can get the experience in house, it frees them from the woes of changing suppliers and we all benefit. |
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 22, 2014 4:52:42 GMT -8
As stated above, pages ago, I took home a C-636, unpackaged it (did not test run it at the store), and have done absolutely nothing to it except run it. It runs fine and has broken in nicely. It pulls about as well as I'd expect any single unit to pull before I would add more units (I have another on layaway to pay off, along with an NdeM C-628 that may have the same motor).
Does it pull as well as an MTH SD70ACe? No, maybe 1.5 stock un-tweeked Bowser C-636's would be equal in pulling power to 1 MTH SD70ACe on my particular layout. But 2 to 1 as stated or implied by others above seems to be an exaggeration.
Does it pull well enough for my railroad for what I need it to do? Sure.
Speed-wise, in plain DC, an Atlas Silver Series diesel or an old P2K Alco PA will run a bit faster than a C-636.
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 22, 2014 5:09:27 GMT -8
You can "blame" Bowser for this, but in reality, it's the manufacturer who screwed up and Bowser takes the blame. So a subcontractor screwed up? For those of us who aren't in contact with Bowser or at least intimately aware of their manufacturing processes, how are we supposed to know who the manufacturer to blame is? These C636 models are Bowser products, no? As far as I'm concerned, they have Bowser's name on them so they are Bowser's products. Am I out of line in reaching that conclusion? No different than getting your car fixed, and a week later the same thing happens due to a defective part. Who's the first person you blame ? .... the mechanic ! You do your best with what you have control over and "assume" the components you are using have been researched and tested to be correct. Doesn't matter what the product is, TV's, computers, appliances, cars, etc., we blame the company whose name is on the product, when in most cases, the problem is caused by somebody else who made the defective part and the business is at the mercy of these third party sources assuming they have made a quality part to their specifications. Mark. |
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Post by alcors32 on Oct 22, 2014 6:16:32 GMT -8
So a subcontractor screwed up? For those of us who aren't in contact with Bowser or at least intimately aware of their manufacturing processes, how are we supposed to know who the manufacturer to blame is? These C636 models are Bowser products, no? As far as I'm concerned, they have Bowser's name on them so they are Bowser's products. Am I out of line in reaching that conclusion? No different than getting your car fixed, and a week later the same thing happens due to a defective part. Who's the first person you blame ? .... the mechanic ! You do your best with what you have control over and "assume" the components you are using have been researched and tested to be correct. Doesn't matter what the product is, TV's, computers, appliances, cars, etc., we blame the company whose name is on the product, when in most cases, the problem is caused by somebody else who made the defective part and the business is at the mercy of these third party sources assuming they have made a quality part to their specifications. Mark. |
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Post by alcors32 on Oct 22, 2014 6:22:36 GMT -8
I think what most people here want to know is what Bowser intents to do about the issues with this model. Maybe all new tooling for every thing below the air tanks. Frames, Trucks, ect. Gary
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 22, 2014 6:25:20 GMT -8
No different than getting your car fixed, and a week later the same thing happens due to a defective part. Who's the first person you blame ? .... the mechanic ! No different? OK. Then, when that same mechanic keeps putting defective parts into OTHER people's cars over and over again, maybe I SHOULD blame the mechanic. Isn't he paying attention? Is it OUR job to inform him there are problems? Would YOU keep using that mechanic? After all, no difference, right? Ed |
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Post by carrman on Oct 22, 2014 6:35:04 GMT -8
Sanda Kan being bought out by Bachmann hosed a number of other companies. It also denied those companies access to decent motors like the previous Atlas motor. Sanda Kan is where Atlas used to be made. That's why we got stuck with cheapo motors.
Dave
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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 22, 2014 7:22:18 GMT -8
Ok the mechanic vs manufacture recall/defect isn't fair
First any and all ASE mechanics know to check bulletins for manufacture recalls/defects and I'm not talking about shops and shade tree mechanics GM FORD TOYOTA
I make parts for those guys so heat comes hard and heavy when one of our parts on an automobile fail and that's not counting the fines we get when we shut down a line up in Detroit 10k a day hurts us suppliers when our equipment breaks down...
About the Atlas motor... Why couldn't they went back to the kato motor days?? I know I argued my atlas mabuchi is stronger than what has been claimed(even made a video of it) but 1 out of 10 or 1 out of 100 being good is not something I would want to buy...now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 13:15:20 GMT -8
So a subcontractor screwed up? For those of us who aren't in contact with Bowser or at least intimately aware of their manufacturing processes, how are we supposed to know who the manufacturer to blame is? These C636 models are Bowser products, no? As far as I'm concerned, they have Bowser's name on them so they are Bowser's products. Am I out of line in reaching that conclusion? No different than getting your car fixed, and a week later the same thing happens due to a defective part. Who's the first person you blame ? .... the mechanic ! You do your best with what you have control over and "assume" the components you are using have been researched and tested to be correct. Doesn't matter what the product is, TV's, computers, appliances, cars, etc., we blame the company whose name is on the product, when in most cases, the problem is caused by somebody else who made the defective part and the business is at the mercy of these third party sources assuming they have made a quality part to their specifications. Mark. No, the anology is buying a brand new car and finding problems. Of course the manufacturer would be held responsible. |
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 22, 2014 16:41:53 GMT -8
Ok, so maybe that analogy was a bad example .... I was attempting to show how the blame game works. In the case of a brand new car, yes the manufacturer is blamed, but you can bet your bottom dollar, that car company is going to be going back to the third party that made that defective part, even though they are going to be taking the brunt of the public blame.
Mark.
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Oct 22, 2014 17:22:29 GMT -8
Atlas IS investingating the motor situation as we speak. Rob Pasani is over in China right now. Dave What is this about? |
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Post by elsdp45 on Oct 22, 2014 18:19:56 GMT -8
Maybe I missed the answer, but after 20 pages I still did not see the answer.
How high is the real engine's walkway measured from the top of the rail vs how high is the model's walkway? I never did see anybody answer back with the real locomotive's measurement.
Chris
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 23, 2014 5:01:49 GMT -8
One person did a nice job of aligning a prototype photo with an HO model photo, which seemed to show Bowser was indeed within the 1" height tolerance (to top of walkway) that they have clearly stated on their Facebook page. That is a few pages back...
As far as a prototype measurement, Delaware-Lackawanna has a very strict no trespassing policy, and for homeland security reasons, absolutely will not divulge when/where their limited numbers of trains are running. I have contacted them directly, in the past, to attempt to get permission to no avail...Although they occasionally park some engines right up next to the Steamtown passenger platform, such that you could easily get the height measurement from Steamtown's (public) property, I have not personally seen the big six axle units parked next to that platform.
Regarding WNY&P, don't know, have never seen their trains, and they run in a rural part of northern PA/southern NY on a limited train schedule. I've only seen them on dvd...they are several hours away from me and I don't get much time off to even attempt to chase them even though a friend and I have contemplated it.
Someone more knowledgeable of the prototype schedule and locations to even see these units than me will have to try to get the measurement. Either way, I live several hours away from the units.
Actually, I believe one of D-L's employees has posted on these forums--perhaps he can get the measurement and enlighten us???
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