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Post by atsfan on May 18, 2015 11:26:21 GMT -8
Maybe out west where there's still some semblance of common sense and consideration for your fellow man remaining in America you can get away with railfanning like some of us used to, but in the east, in Pennsylvania, railfans need to be very careful. Here there are places where we can railfan, legally, from OFF the railroad property, and get a good view of the subject...common well-known photo locations. BUT for those who venture too close to the tracks, the RR police ask for your driver's license (hint--don't ever volunteer it, as some have stupidly done). Then they log you and the very next time you are EVER caught on NS or CSX right-of-way, you will be prosecuted for trespassing. That has been made crystal clear to some of my friends and acquaintances. I don't go on RR right-of-way without a good reason (like my engineering work) and haven't in many years, but as a 20-something, I did venture into Newberry Junction, Williamsport, PA, in clear view of the yard office, and took a few photos on a few occasions, and I've stood in the gauge at Cajon Summit and snapped a few quick images each way...but I would not attempt that now. Even before 9/11 I got "yelled" at by the RR police on Cajon. They politely asked me to get going, as in right now. They were pretty nice about it, realizing I had come a long way just to stop briefly. Best place to find Alcos up close is from the Steamtown Station Platform. DL has a very strict no trespassing policy--but Steamtown is a National Park, and as such you can get up close and personal with anything idling right there, which can include old Alcos. As long as you don't climb on them, there's nothing the folks in the D-L tower immediately nearby can do to stop you! In Pennsylvania there are hundreds of legal spots to watch trains today. Hundreds of nice spots from Erie, to Sand Patch, to Altoona, to Philadelphia. Same with pretty much every state. People must be doing stuff I am it since I fan all over the country. Last time I was at Cajon the guy in the pick up stopped and said hello but no cops and the rest. Of course I was.not dancing around at Summit in the keep out area. |
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Post by mlehman on May 18, 2015 11:52:16 GMT -8
Too much hysteria and not enough commonsense don't help anyone's security. Railfans who are respectful of the ROW line actually add to rail security. Like crews, they know the territory and what's odd or out of place. Any tin badge just hustling people along without regard to a violation is shooting themselves in the foot...
That said, I would like to try to keep the thread focused on why some of these attitudes exist, especially the ones we know are clearly mistaken. It is a mistake to assume all railfans are a threat. It is not a mistake to assume that railfans on the property represent some sort of risk, even if only to themselves. So we do have to live with that, but, no, we should NOT just stay home. Rights are likes muscles. If you don't use them, they whither away.
More to the point regarding Frankford, I know specifically that Amtrak police are led by folks who understand what I wrote in the first paragraph. Heard it myself from Amtrak Prez Boardman and his police chief (don't recall the name and who has since retired IIRC) a few years back at the Trains passenger miniconference in Chicago. Railfan and take pics in proper relation to the right way and you have a right to not expect any trouble from them, although they may check IDs if you're on the property (which is legit on station platforms, etc). The boss does want to hear about it if his folks don't meet that expectation.
A development in the last day is that a spokesman cautioned to not infer that the windshield hits were caused by gunfire. Again, they were only speaking in the singular, as in a hit, when there seems to be more than one impact point. But the fact that they have yet to attribute the hits to striking a stationary object suggests something did hit the train instead, although that's obviously speculative.
Moreover, if you're the engineer, you have no way of knowing the difference between a gunshot and a rock, etc, unless you're a vet and maybe had the experience of getting shot at in an MRAP or something. Even then, the startle reflex is a powerful thing. It these are hits from thrown objects, a strike at the right moment could lead to it being the precipitating event here, although that's far from being a proven fact at this point.
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Post by atsfan on May 18, 2015 12:31:35 GMT -8
I see plenty of fans trackside all over.
Not everyone is hiding at home.
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Post by WP 257 on May 18, 2015 13:44:05 GMT -8
I've been driving down Progress Avenue in Harrisburg, PA, at about 5:30 pm on a winter evening, and the juveniles hiding in a cemetery threw a brick at the side window of my Toyota Corolla. A brick hitting your car window when you are doing even only 35 mph or so sounds like a real gunshot, and glass flew everywhere.
So I can't help but think perhaps something happened to scare the engineer of that train out of his skin, and perhaps he then may have mistakenly advanced the throttle, too soon.
Oh, btw, my time in the track gauge on Cajon amounted to merely seconds...I wasn't dancing around in the track gauge...only shot a couple quick pictures, and was asked to leave, prior to 9/11.
And, yes, not all railfans are hiding at home but I do know some who have stopped actively railfanning...they didn't want to be hassled by police anymore. That, and some of us are more interested in stuff that's now in museums than out on the road today. It also gets easier for some to not railfan once "your" era is well over.
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Post by Brakie on May 18, 2015 15:17:55 GMT -8
Moreover, if you're the engineer, you have no way of knowing the difference between a gunshot and a rock, etc, unless you're a vet and maybe had the experience of getting shot at in an MRAP or something. Even then, the startle reflex is a powerful thing. It these are hits from thrown objects, a strike at the right moment could lead to it being the precipitating event here, although that's far from being a proven fact at this point.
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Mike,There were some urban locations we would ride the floor of the caboose because of the rocks,bricks,bottles and other items that was being tossed toward the caboose.
I heard of one engineer on the Chessie that was hit by a large rock and ended up in a daze..The head brakeman had enough sense to close the throttle and dump the air..The engineer was taken to a local hospital.This happen in Cincinnati on the Chessie.
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Post by atsfan on May 18, 2015 16:34:15 GMT -8
I've been driving down Progress Avenue in Harrisburg, PA, at about 5:30 pm on a winter evening, and the juveniles hiding in a cemetery threw a brick at the side window of my Toyota Corolla. A brick hitting your car window when you are doing even only 35 mph or so sounds like a real gunshot, and glass flew everywhere. So I can't help but think perhaps something happened to scare the engineer of that train out of his skin, and perhaps he then may have mistakenly advanced the throttle, too soon. Oh, btw, my time in the track gauge on Cajon amounted to merely seconds...I wasn't dancing around in the track gauge...only shot a couple quick pictures, and was asked to leave, prior to 9/11. And, yes, not all railfans are hiding at home but I do know some who have stopped actively railfanning...they didn't want to be hassled by police anymore. That, and some of us are more interested in stuff that's now in museums than out on the road today. It also gets easier for some to not railfan once "your" era is well over. Sounds like Harrisburg is a rough town. It looked rough when I drove through it. I have spent hundreds of hours at Cajon and never once was asked to leave. Once a Forest Ranger stopped and said something about a pass. But that was long ago. He was more interested in the dirt bikes and ATV's tearing everything up. If someone does not railfan due to era change, fine. But that is different than staying home from being hassled. Again, this "hassling" is over rated. Anyone not railfanning because of their fear of it is missing out on the real world out there. There are literally thousands of safe and legal places to watch trains in the USA. Many places now have railfan parks!@ The only fans I have seen hassled are morons who decide to go where they should not. Note, I am not including you in that characterization ! But we all see the nuts and sometimes even tell them to chill out. If they don't I usually move on or move away from them. I have seen guys wander out on bridges, crossings, you name it. Those are dumb acts begging for getting "hassled". |
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Post by WP 257 on May 18, 2015 19:57:19 GMT -8
Ironically, I know one railfan, now in his early 50's, who happens to be a high ranking safety officer for a state agency...but in his pursuit of trains he does turn into a madman. I rode with him once--and I'll never do it again because he freaked me out. If he sees a train he's excited about, he turns into hell on wheels. If you are driving, he yells at you to go well beyond what anyone might consider to be "safe".
He takes pride in telling his stories of walking across the Meyersdale trestle, through various Chessie and WM tunnels and across other long rail bridges, etc. All stuff I'd never do...Of course he has had to outrun a train on at least one occasion to get off a bridge. He has the photos shot from some of the big bridges to prove all this, so I know they are not merely just tall tales.
I know Altoona locals who have walked through the Gallitzen Tunnels (and then back through to their car)--again, something I would never ever do. I don't much care for snakes and you don't know what you will find. Then of course there's the very real possibility of a train coming through.
These are the kind of railfans who give the rest of us a very bad name, and occasionally get hurt out there.
Oh--the only time I ever got to Cajon (Summit), Sullivan's Curve, and Tehachapi was in late May of 2000, and as I referenced above, no sooner did I park and get out of my rental car at Summit (near the crossing) and begin approaching the BNSF main tracks than a railroad cop nicely asked me to leave. I indicated I was from PA, just wanted a couple quick photos, and would be gone right away. So I guess it was just bad "luck of the draw".
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2015 18:31:25 GMT -8
I haven't looked at the Forum in a week or so, but I caught up today and I'll address some of the comments on this thread. I know there are some other railroaders here, engineer Ryan who made some good points...who else is an active or past railroader? I'm a life-long model railroader and transportation historian. (Ok, railfan). I've also spent most of the last 35 years as a railroader, transportation planner, or at public agencies overseeing Amtrak, commuter, and freight railroads. I've held positions from switchman to agency executive director. In short, the primary reason railroads do dot like to hire & employ "railfans" is because of the OCD / Aspergers / Autism factor. Though a majority of railfans & model railroaders do not exhibit behaviors associated with those "syndromes", many do. It's no secret, just look around. A quick Google search will turn up many articles like his: www.autismspeaks.org/blog/2014/09/12/what-it-about-autism-and-trains (You don't want Sheldon from Big Bang Theory driving a train). Railroading is very much like the military. More so in the past, but the military has also changed. (I'm also a veteran). They are both similarly structured and demand strict adherence to multiple levels of rules. And people who make the rules. Yet they also need the "officers and men" to be able to think clearly, to come to decisions RIGHT NOW, and to act on those decisions under very stressful (or very boring) situations. People with excessive OCD / Aspergers behaviors tend to focus on small details to the exclusion of the Big Picture. Railroaders need to have exceptional situational awareness and the ability to process a lot of information quickly and accurately. Focusing on small details like loco numbers while your cut rolls into a blue flagged track is not good. riogrande wrote: "Unfair stereotypes are just that, unfair." True by definition, but in most cases there is some truth in all stereotypes. A lot of railfans / model railroaders do have excess OCD / Aspergers-like issues. Or see the guys wearing striped overalls and vests covered in patches and buttons? The ones who have all the answers smell bad? Yea, you know at least one... The real crazies can be found on passenger train and electric rail transit forums because many are invested in various conspiracy theories and rail funding & use fantasies (In Search of the Holy Rail, or Paris envy). mlehman wrote: "Could it be because a locomotive engineer is just, after all, an ordinary worker who's not even in charge of the train?" Most people still look up to railroaders, especially engineers. They are the "face" of railroading. It's a tough, dangerous job and lots of kids and adults still dream of becoming one. More so in the past when railroads played a larger role in everyday life, but it's still a position that people associate with adventure, excitement, danger, and power. I don't think most people consider the engineer's job "ordinary". fr8kar wrote: "As far as being a foamer is concered....I keep it to myself. I won't deny that I am interested in trains, but I hardly advertise it." That's what almost all professional railroaders who are also railfans or modelers say. I've also found that it's the quality of your work that counts- though you might get some ribbing. A lot of railroaders can be pretty aggressive/rough, it goes with the job. But it's really not unusual for railroaders to be interested in railroading beyond what they are paid to do. And that can be a good thing. I've found that, depending on the RR or agency, between 10 and 30 percent of employees could be considered "railfans" to some degree. From having a locomotive model on the desk to having a 1,000sf layout at home. mlehman wrote: "Good point on the Model Citizen documentary. I feel my $10 donation is being put to good use there. I'm sure it won't resolve the issues we see here, but it could surely help. I looked at 4 or 5 of the Model Citizen documentaries. Overall I was not impressed. I found myself cringing as I saw too many of the negative stereotypes. mlehman wrote: "Don't most museums now require a process to qualify to operate that is similar to commercial RRing? No, not even close. Training and testing for railroading is an order of magnitude more difficult, because it's the Real Thing. Most employees subject to operating rules must pass a signal test at 100%. No mistakes. Etc... Brakie wrote: "The last thing I wanted my fellow railroaders to know I was a train buff..That would get you fired the first time you stood before the man because of a rule infraction you broke--word does get around." Being a railfan won't get you fired, breaking the rules will. As many management as agreement employees are "railfans". Also, in railroading, getting "fired" does not mean the same thing as it does in other fields. MANY times you can be "fired" at a railroad and go back to work after 30, 60, 90 etc. days. So it's actually being laid off. And many people have job insurance through their unions, so they still get paid, but often at a reduced rate. atsf wrote: "Working for a railroad seems like misery. I have never heard anyone who works for a railroad on the road say anything other than how horrible management is. And the lousy work conditions. And that if you like trains god forbid, the railroad will look for ways to fire you if you miss some rule once." Again like the military, railroading is tough work, it always has been. For C&Es (Conductors and Engineers) it's as tough today but in different ways than 20 or 50 years ago. They have air conditioning and don't have to shovel coal, but the hours are worse, etc. Management isn't going to "look for ways to fire you" if you are a railfan. Now if you are a dangerous dork railfan, you most likely would never have been hired. There's always a rank-and-file vs. management tension. Especially in the transportation department. I've been on both "sides" but when I became a manager it was clearer that I had to perform for the good of The Company, and by doing so, that helped everyone. markfj wrote: "Also, in this post 9/11 world, my trackside railfanning is pretty much over. Why? Well, it’s almost a given that someone with a cell phone will likely call the cops on me if I’m taking train photos (even in an open, public space). Everyone has the right to photograph / railfan from public or private non-railroad property. Times have changed, so most railroads don't want any trespassing on their property. Most railfans are responsible, and can even help by reporting dangerous situations or vandals. But some railfans ruin it for others by acting unsafely or by posting videos of close-ups of employees (rail paparazzi). Crews hate that, thinking the videos could be used against them in an investigation (no). |
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Post by atsfan on May 20, 2015 19:28:25 GMT -8
Ironically, I know one railfan, now in his early 50's, who happens to be a high ranking safety officer for a state agency...but in his pursuit of trains he does turn into a madman. I rode with him once--and I'll never do it again because he freaked me out. If he sees a train he's excited about, he turns into hell on wheels. If you are driving, he yells at you to go well beyond what anyone might consider to be "safe". He takes pride in telling his stories of walking across the Meyersdale trestle, through various Chessie and WM tunnels and across other long rail bridges, etc. All stuff I'd never do...Of course he has had to outrun a train on at least one occasion to get off a bridge. He has the photos shot from some of the big bridges to prove all this, so I know they are not merely just tall tales. I know Altoona locals who have walked through the Gallitzen Tunnels (and then back through to their car)--again, something I would never ever do. I don't much care for snakes and you don't know what you will find. Then of course there's the very real possibility of a train coming through. These are the kind of railfans who give the rest of us a very bad name, and occasionally get hurt out there. Oh--the only time I ever got to Cajon (Summit), Sullivan's Curve, and Tehachapi was in late May of 2000, and as I referenced above, no sooner did I park and get out of my rental car at Summit (near the crossing) and begin approaching the BNSF main tracks than a railroad cop nicely asked me to leave. I indicated I was from PA, just wanted a couple quick photos, and would be gone right away. So I guess it was just bad "luck of the draw". Summit used to be open. The road was public and led north to some houses etc. After the big derailment, they blamed vagrants and fenced off summit to keep people away from stopped trains waiting to go downhill. They also stationed security people at summit then and eventually gated off the road. So now you can't get to the crossing. But the rest of Cajon is basically the same for fanning. I never spent much time actually at Summit anyway. |
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Post by Brakie on May 21, 2015 3:46:53 GMT -8
Brakie wrote: "The last thing I wanted my fellow railroaders to know I was a train buff..That would get you fired the first time you stood before the man because of a rule infraction you broke--word does get around." Being a railfan won't get you fired, breaking the rules will. As many management as agreement employees are "railfans". Also, in railroading, getting "fired" does not mean the same thing as it does in other fields. MANY times you can be "fired" at a railroad and go back to work after 30, 60, 90 etc. days. So it's actually being laid off. And many people have job insurance through their unions, so they still get paid, but often at a reduced rate.
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Gee times have changed..When I worked the rails the word "fired" meant exactly that. You could draw street time for X many days or weeks.This was called removed from service due to suspension.
Being a railfan could and would get you fired-there was no love lost between the railroads and railfans regardless if the President was a railfan or not.Just mentioning the fact your hobby was model railroading would be reason enough not to hire you.
The reason is simple..You gotta keep your mind on your work for your and your follow employees safety not that brand new SD40.
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Post by WP 257 on May 21, 2015 5:00:06 GMT -8
omaharoad--
The OCD/Autism/Aspergers connection or factor you referred to above, so far as success in a job or career like railroading is concerned, is ridiculous horsecrap, pure and simple. It's basically discrimination, and nothing more. Having some of those traits, for most people, is not an accurate predictor of success or failure on the job.
I have two sons who are classified as "special needs". The one is classified as "autistic" but in reality probably has Aspergers. One of the professionals who works with Autism-spectrum children just told me, at baseball practice, that everyone in the general population exhibits up to 10 of the markers or traits for Aspergers.
They think Albert Einstein had Aspergers--and he did ok at his profession.
Those same traits, which I apparently possess to some small degree, actually help me do a very good job in my career, which is civil engineering. There are many times I have to focus on the big picture and filter out extraneous noise (real noise or idiot ideas) to find a solution to a problem. I do that better than most people, and I could certainly have done railroading as a career, but can't afford the paycut to start over.
My older son, who is now 13, is batting .474 in teener league baseball, and after years of horrible coaching including people giving up on him for the slightest mistake and sticking him in right field, is now outplaying many of the other kids. I was told if he wasn't pitching at age 9, forget it, he has no chance. Well, I got him a personal coach, and he just pitched a 1-2-3 inning the other night, with two strikeouts, before our game was over due to the mercy rule. So he's proving everybody wrong, including his previous idiot coaches. I just didn't tell this coach that he has ADD. He's proving he can outplay--and even outpitch--kids who have started over him for years. The other parents are even saying he is by far the most improved over the last 6 years of these kids playing together.
So I don't want to hear about what people on the autistic spectrum can't do from people who don't know. Every person is different.
Oh--and most little kids do like trains for awhile until they go to school and hear--from their teachers (as mine actually did)--that "trains are for babies".
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Post by peoriaman on May 21, 2015 5:40:27 GMT -8
markfj wrote: "Also, in this post 9/11 world, my trackside railfanning is pretty much over. Why? Well, it’s almost a given that someone with a cell phone will likely call the cops on me if I’m taking train photos (even in an open, public space). Everyone has the right to photograph / railfan from public or private non-railroad property. Times have changed, so most railroads don't want any trespassing on their property. That's two different situations, if I'm reading Markfj's post correctly. I think he's talking about busybody townsfolk or small town cops investigating because someone is hanging out by the tracks for no apparent reason, even if in a public place. Happens all the time. Sure, it'll never happen at Gallitzin or Fostoria or Rochelle but if you travel to some off-the-beaten-path spots the odds are great that sooner or later you'll be approached by the cops under the premise "we got a call..." |
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Post by mlehman on May 21, 2015 5:45:52 GMT -8
SNIP So I don't want to hear about what people on the autistic spectrum can't do from people who don't know. Every person is different. Oh--and most little kids do like trains for awhile until they go to school and hear--from their teachers (as mine actually did)--that "trains are for babies". That's it, it's all Thomas's fault...Now I understand.  More seriously for our purposes here, while I'm not going to dump it all on Thomas and his Friends, it does show how deeply embedded the uninformed prejudices against our hobby run. Heck, when even little kids get profiled as "babies" for liking Thomas, we do have a rather systemic problem on our hands. Of course, with our nation being a hotbed of uninformed prejudices against a whole variety of things, why is there any need to solve any of our problems if we can just a point a finger at someone or some group and blame them for all our problems, all those problems will go away, right? Sure. Speaking of that sort of mentality, reports have them seizing Bostian's cell phone to search it -- again. They already did that right after the accident, as Bostian turned it over even before he felt he was ready to talk to investigators right after the accident. They apparently looked through it and, satisfied, returned it to him. Now over a week later, they wanted it back. Besides chain of custody issues, this raised in my mind a desperate attempt to fix blame. Not sure what else they plan to find, unless the initial review was so incompetent it raises issues as much about the investigation as it does about the cause. The NTSB is also not sure now whether anything hit the loco to cause the damaged windshield. Not sure where the camera is located, but this suggests it was not in the cab itself but outside where the view through the windshield wasn't directly recorded? One would think that someone has looked over the video carefully by this point (although the phone thing is starting to undermine my confidence in that). Likewise, wherever the camera is located, you would think it would record whatever the locomotive was struck by or struck itself. Obviously, lighting and other issues could play a role in what's visible and recorded, but maybe they learned they need to do a retrofit to gain a better view? |
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Post by atsfan on May 21, 2015 7:24:51 GMT -8
markfj wrote: "Also, in this post 9/11 world, my trackside railfanning is pretty much over. Why? Well, it’s almost a given that someone with a cell phone will likely call the cops on me if I’m taking train photos (even in an open, public space). Everyone has the right to photograph / railfan from public or private non-railroad property. Times have changed, so most railroads don't want any trespassing on their property. That's two different situations, if I'm reading Markfj's post correctly. I think he's talking about busybody townsfolk or small town cops investigating because someone is hanging out by the tracks for no apparent reason, even if in a public place. Happens all the time. Sure, it'll never happen at Gallitzin or Fostoria or Rochelle but if you travel to some off-the-beaten-path spots the odds are great that sooner or later you'll be approached by the cops under the premise "we got a call..." It does not happen All the time. It nevers happens to me and I go to all sorts of small towns and places. The most I ever get is someone pulls up and asks if something special is,coming. This fear of train watching is way over blown. |
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Post by atsfan on May 21, 2015 7:26:28 GMT -8
omaharoad-- The OCD/Autism/Aspergers connection or factor you referred to above, so far as success in a job or career like railroading is concerned, is ridiculous horsecrap, pure and simple. It's basically discrimination, and nothing more. Having some of those traits, for most people, is not an accurate predictor of success or failure on the job. I have two sons who are classified as "special needs". The one is classified as "autistic" but in reality probably has Aspergers. One of the professionals who works with Autism-spectrum children just told me, at baseball practice, that everyone in the general population exhibits up to 10 of the markers or traits for Aspergers. They think Albert Einstein had Aspergers--and he did ok at his profession. Those same traits, which I apparently possess to some small degree, actually help me do a very good job in my career, which is civil engineering. There are many times I have to focus on the big picture and filter out extraneous noise (real noise or idiot ideas) to find a solution to a problem. I do that better than most people, and I could certainly have done railroading as a career, but can't afford the paycut to start over. My older son, who is now 13, is batting .474 in teener league baseball, and after years of horrible coaching including people giving up on him for the slightest mistake and sticking him in right field, is now outplaying many of the other kids. I was told if he wasn't pitching at age 9, forget it, he has no chance. Well, I got him a personal coach, and he just pitched a 1-2-3 inning the other night, with two strikeouts, before our game was over due to the mercy rule. So he's proving everybody wrong, including his previous idiot coaches. I just didn't tell this coach that he has ADD. He's proving he can outplay--and even outpitch--kids who have started over him for years. The other parents are even saying he is by far the most improved over the last 6 years of these kids playing together. So I don't want to hear about what people on the autistic spectrum can't do from people who don't know. Every person is different. Oh--and most little kids do like trains for awhile until they go to school and hear--from their teachers (as mine actually did)--that "trains are for babies". Baseball is the worst sport on the planet for learning. If you are not born batting home runs, it abandoned you at age 7. |
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Post by atsfan on May 21, 2015 7:29:36 GMT -8
SNIP So I don't want to hear about what people on the autistic spectrum can't do from people who don't know. Every person is different. Oh--and most little kids do like trains for awhile until they go to school and hear--from their teachers (as mine actually did)--that "trains are for babies". That's it, it's all Thomas's fault...Now I understand. More seriously for our purposes here, while I'm not going to dump it all on Thomas and his Friends, it does show how deeply embedded the uninformed prejudices against our hobby run. Heck, when even little kids get profiled as "babies" for liking Thomas, we do have a rather systemic problem on our hands. Of course, with our nation being a hotbed of uninformed prejudices against a whole variety of things, why is there any need to solve any of our problems if we can just a point a finger at someone or some group and blame them for all our problems, all those problems will go away, right? Sure. Speaking of that sort of mentality, reports have them seizing Bostian's cell phone to search it -- again. They already did that right after the accident, as Bostian turned it over even before he felt he was ready to talk to investigators right after the accident. They apparently looked through it and, satisfied, returned it to him. Now over a week later, they wanted it back. Besides chain of custody issues, this raised in my mind a desperate attempt to fix blame. Not sure what else they plan to find, unless the initial review was so incompetent it raises issues as much about the investigation as it does about the cause. The NTSB is also not sure now whether anything hit the loco to cause the damaged windshield. Not sure where the camera is located, but this suggests it was not in the cab itself but outside where the view through the windshield wasn't directly recorded? One would think that someone has looked over the video carefully by this point (although the phone thing is starting to undermine my confidence in that). Likewise, wherever the camera is located, you would think it would record whatever the locomotive was struck by or struck itself. Obviously, lighting and other issues could play a role in what's visible and recorded, but maybe they learned they need to do a retrofit to gain a better view? This is a new engine. The camera is in the cab, facing forward. They know already what happened. They knew in 24 hours. It is all recorded including the throttle movements and times. The concept some object hit the engine, and that caused the guy to speed up, is a billion to one shot. |
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Post by atsfan on May 21, 2015 7:30:56 GMT -8
Brakie wrote: "The last thing I wanted my fellow railroaders to know I was a train buff..That would get you fired the first time you stood before the man because of a rule infraction you broke--word does get around." Being a railfan won't get you fired, breaking the rules will. As many management as agreement employees are "railfans". Also, in railroading, getting "fired" does not mean the same thing as it does in other fields. MANY times you can be "fired" at a railroad and go back to work after 30, 60, 90 etc. days. So it's actually being laid off. And many people have job insurance through their unions, so they still get paid, but often at a reduced rate. =========================================================================== Gee times have changed..When I worked the rails the word "fired" meant exactly that. You could draw street time for X many days or weeks.This was called removed from service due to suspension. Being a railfan could and would get you fired-there was no love lost between the railroads and railfans regardless if the President was a railfan or not.Just mentioning the fact your hobby was model railroading would be reason enough not to hire you. The reason is simple..You gotta keep your mind on your work for your and your follow employees safety not that brand new SD40. And railroaders look at fans as odd ? |
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Post by peoriaman on May 21, 2015 7:40:01 GMT -8
It does not happen All the time. You're taking my post literally but then you miss the part where I qualify my point by saying "sooner or later". So, not literally ALL the time. If it hasn't happened to you yet doesn't mean it won't happen next time. But even once a year is too often if its an extreme example like the time I was detained for 45 minutes and frisked and had my car searched. On public property. Without my consent. Bad cops? Absolutely. Did it stop me from railfanning? No. |
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Post by Brakie on May 21, 2015 8:13:16 GMT -8
And railroaders look at fans as odd ?
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Yup..You should see us from the cab..Looks funny..A group of men rush to the track holding cameras,they take photos,wave as we go by..
Said a engineer to me one time..Those guys gotta get a life..Give 'em a day off and they watch trains all day.Of course some hated the thought of having their photo taken as well.Never mind the fans was photographing the engine.
One thing I always hated..We would be busy working a industry while a large group of fans watched then comes Mr.. Beer Belly and says "Excuse me..Do you know when 765 will get here? My standard reply was "It will get here when its gets here and not a minute sooner.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 8:41:33 GMT -8
omaharoad-- The OCD/Autism/Aspergers connection or factor you referred to above, so far as success in a job or career like railroading is concerned, is ridiculous horsecrap, pure and simple. It's basically discrimination, and nothing more. Having some of those traits, for most people, is not an accurate predictor of success or failure on the job. I have two sons who are classified as "special needs". The one is classified as "autistic" but in reality probably has Aspergers. One of the professionals who works with Autism-spectrum children just told me, at baseball practice, that everyone in the general population exhibits up to 10 of the markers or traits for Aspergers. They think Albert Einstein had Aspergers--and he did ok at his profession. Those same traits, which I apparently possess to some small degree, actually help me do a very good job in my career, which is civil engineering. There are many times I have to focus on the big picture and filter out extraneous noise (real noise or idiot ideas) to find a solution to a problem. I do that better than most people, and I could certainly have done railroading as a career, but can't afford the paycut to start over. My older son, who is now 13, is batting .474 in teener league baseball, and after years of horrible coaching including people giving up on him for the slightest mistake and sticking him in right field, is now outplaying many of the other kids. I was told if he wasn't pitching at age 9, forget it, he has no chance. Well, I got him a personal coach, and he just pitched a 1-2-3 inning the other night, with two strikeouts, before our game was over due to the mercy rule. So he's proving everybody wrong, including his previous idiot coaches. I just didn't tell this coach that he has ADD. He's proving he can outplay--and even outpitch--kids who have started over him for years. The other parents are even saying he is by far the most improved over the last 6 years of these kids playing together. So I don't want to hear about what people on the autistic spectrum can't do from people who don't know. Every person is different. Oh--and most little kids do like trains for awhile until they go to school and hear--from their teachers (as mine actually did)--that "trains are for babies". You, as a railfan, have your point of view. I, as an ex-railroad officer who was responsible for operations and safety including hiring & firing am telling you the way it actually is. I said not all railfans and model railroaders show OCD / Aspergers / Autistic tendencies. Most do not. My point is that OCD / Aspergers behavior is more prevalent among railfans and model railroaders than it is in the general population. That's not a judgement, it's a fact. I'm sure your son is a nice kid with many talents. But his chances of working for a railroad are probably very slim. Sorry if that sounds harsh but railroading is a dangerous business that must minimize the chances of injury and damage whenever possible. It is not a game or a hobby. Railroads and the military do not want to employ people who obsess on details at the expense of seeing the Big Picture. |
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Post by atsfan on May 21, 2015 9:35:22 GMT -8
omaharoad-- The OCD/Autism/Aspergers connection or factor you referred to above, so far as success in a job or career like railroading is concerned, is ridiculous horsecrap, pure and simple. It's basically discrimination, and nothing more. Having some of those traits, for most people, is not an accurate predictor of success or failure on the job. I have two sons who are classified as "special needs". The one is classified as "autistic" but in reality probably has Aspergers. One of the professionals who works with Autism-spectrum children just told me, at baseball practice, that everyone in the general population exhibits up to 10 of the markers or traits for Aspergers. They think Albert Einstein had Aspergers--and he did ok at his profession. Those same traits, which I apparently possess to some small degree, actually help me do a very good job in my career, which is civil engineering. There are many times I have to focus on the big picture and filter out extraneous noise (real noise or idiot ideas) to find a solution to a problem. I do that better than most people, and I could certainly have done railroading as a career, but can't afford the paycut to start over. My older son, who is now 13, is batting .474 in teener league baseball, and after years of horrible coaching including people giving up on him for the slightest mistake and sticking him in right field, is now outplaying many of the other kids. I was told if he wasn't pitching at age 9, forget it, he has no chance. Well, I got him a personal coach, and he just pitched a 1-2-3 inning the other night, with two strikeouts, before our game was over due to the mercy rule. So he's proving everybody wrong, including his previous idiot coaches. I just didn't tell this coach that he has ADD. He's proving he can outplay--and even outpitch--kids who have started over him for years. The other parents are even saying he is by far the most improved over the last 6 years of these kids playing together. So I don't want to hear about what people on the autistic spectrum can't do from people who don't know. Every person is different. Oh--and most little kids do like trains for awhile until they go to school and hear--from their teachers (as mine actually did)--that "trains are for babies". You, as a railfan, have your point of view. I, as an ex-railroad officer who was responsible for operations and safety including hiring & firing am telling you the way it actually is. I said not all railfans and model railroaders show OCD / Aspergers / Autistic tendencies. Most do not. My point is that OCD / Aspergers behavior is more prevalent among railfans and model railroaders than it is in the general population. That's not a judgement, it's a fact. I'm sure your son is a nice kid with many talents. But his chances of working for a railroad are probably very slim. Sorry if that sounds harsh but railroading is a dangerous business that must minimize the chances of injury and damage whenever possible. It is not a game or a hobby. Railroads and the military do not want to employ people who obsess on details at the expense of seeing the Big Picture. Everything you say you would do as a railroad officer is illegal hiring wise. Your attitude is archaic, prejudice, discriminatory, and, illegal. |
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Post by atsfan on May 21, 2015 9:38:29 GMT -8
And railroaders look at fans as odd ? ==================================== Yup..You should see us from the cab..Looks funny..A group of men rush to the track holding cameras,they take photos,wave as we go by.. Said a engineer to me one time..Those guys gotta get a life..Give 'em a day off and they watch trains all day.Of course some hated the thought of having their photo taken as well.Never mind the fans was photographing the engine. One thing I always hated..We would be busy working a industry while a large group of fans watched then comes Mr.. Beer Belly and says "Excuse me..Do you know when 765 will get here? My standard reply was "It will get here when its gets here and not a minute sooner. How is it odder to pay thousands of dollars, dress up in costumes, and spend an entire Sunday obsessing about millionaires playing with a football...... Or drown bait, or chase a white ball on a big lawn, or any other hobby in existence....... |
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Post by atsfan on May 21, 2015 9:39:45 GMT -8
It does not happen All the time. You're taking my post literally but then you miss the part where I qualify my point by saying "sooner or later". So, not literally ALL the time. If it hasn't happened to you yet doesn't mean it won't happen next time. But even once a year is too often if its an extreme example like the time I was detained for 45 minutes and frisked and had my car searched. On public property. Without my consent. Bad cops? Absolutely. Did it stop me from railfanning? No. I am reading what you write. Your example is the exception. |
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Post by peoriaman on May 21, 2015 10:30:22 GMT -8
Your example is the exception. And the others in this thread with the same complaints must be the exceptions too... :rolleyes I should have mentioned earlier - the problem isn't "trains", its "photography". Photography forums and websites contain countless examples of people who have set up to shoot, say, buildings downtown, or signs, or storefronts or various other things outside the realm of ordinary "touristy" stuff and been called in to or hassled by the police (real or rent-a-cop). All from public property. If you need examples I could post enough links to fill the entire bandwidth of this forum. Everyone nowadays thinks the guy with the camera is the next 9-11 bomber. OK, not everyone, just some people. That's for those who don't understand hyperbole. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 10:33:20 GMT -8
You, as a railfan, have your point of view. I, as an ex-railroad officer who was responsible for operations and safety including hiring & firing am telling you the way it actually is. I said not all railfans and model railroaders show OCD / Aspergers / Autistic tendencies. Most do not. My point is that OCD / Aspergers behavior is more prevalent among railfans and model railroaders than it is in the general population. That's not a judgement, it's a fact. I'm sure your son is a nice kid with many talents. But his chances of working for a railroad are probably very slim. Sorry if that sounds harsh but railroading is a dangerous business that must minimize the chances of injury and damage whenever possible. It is not a game or a hobby. Railroads and the military do not want to employ people who obsess on details at the expense of seeing the Big Picture. Everything you say you would do as a railroad officer is illegal hiring wise. Your attitude is archaic, prejudice, discriminatory, and, illegal. Nothing illegal. I said nothing about hiring or not hiring protected classes. I'm addressing behaviors that an individual may or may not have. And that is perfectly legal and rational. You are making my point. |
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Post by Donnell Wells on May 21, 2015 10:59:01 GMT -8
Omaha, let's stick with trains and leave medical diagnosis and associated effects to the medical journals, forums, and community.
To All: let's stay on topic. Thanks.
Donnell
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 11:16:37 GMT -8
Omaha, let's stick with trains and leave medical diagnosis and associated effects to the medical journals, forums, and community.
Donnell I'm not making any medical diagnoses. I'm describing why railroads have issues with behaviors that are frequently associated with railfans. Are you more interested in the way railroads work, or the way you would like them to work? If you don't like what I post, ban me or delete my posts and further increase the forum's railfan-to-railroader ratio, because I will keep posting what I know. Your choice. |
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Post by grahamline on May 21, 2015 11:25:37 GMT -8
I can well understand railroads don't need employees who are not willing to follow procedures, or who cannot focus on the task at hand. No industry does. All work involving heavy machinery is inherently dangerous. Of course they will screen out people who show they can't handle the work.
But Aspergers and autism are medical terms describing an exceptionally wide range of symptoms, to the point that a fair number of medical people question whether the labels have any real useful meaning.
Painting modelers and railfans with as broad a brush as was done in the original posting is a gross exaggeration. Sure, there are some wacked-out foamers who have a poor grip, and they can be pretty easy to spot. But they are nowhere near the majority.
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Post by mlehman on May 21, 2015 11:35:59 GMT -8
Your example is the exception. And the others in this thread with the same complaints must be the exceptions too... :rolleyes I should have mentioned earlier - the problem isn't "trains", its "photography". Photography forums and websites contain countless examples of people who have set up to shoot, say, buildings downtown, or signs, or storefronts or various other things outside the realm of ordinary "touristy" stuff and been called in to or hassled by the police (real or rent-a-cop). All from public property. If you need examples I could post enough links to fill the entire bandwidth of this forum. Everyone nowadays thinks the guy with the camera is the next 9-11 bomber. OK, not everyone, just some people. That's for those who don't understand hyperbole. Great points, peoriaman. What's bizarre about the idea that someone with a camera represents a threat must come from watching WAY too many Cold War era spy thrillers. And with Google Earth and its Streetview mode, who even needs to come by and take a picture of something with the apparent (to some people) goal of blowing it up, when you can do the recon from your cozy chair at the coffee shop? If you just happen to be a terrorist and not a railfan, of course. Really, some people are just overwhelmed by the workings of their own imagination I guess. And EVEN more to the point, since (nearly) everyone with a phone now HAS A CAMERA why the %#$*@! don't they draw all the neighborhood busy-bodies to dial 911? "It's OK, Maude, it's just a phone. He must be one of us." I suppose one thing we face about people doing stuff that doesn't make any sense is that it just does NOT make sense. Hard to argue with fundamental wingnuttery. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2015 12:05:44 GMT -8
I can well understand railroads don't need employees who are not willing to follow procedures, or who cannot focus on the task at hand. No industry does. All work involving heavy machinery is inherently dangerous. Of course they will screen out people who show they can't handle the work. But Aspergers and autism are medical terms describing an exceptionally wide range of symptoms, to the point that a fair number of medical people question whether the labels have any real useful meaning. Painting modelers and railfans with as broad a brush as was done in the original posting is a gross exaggeration. Sure, there are some wacked-out foamers who have a poor grip, and they can be pretty easy to spot. But they are nowhere near the majority. Note that I wrote "...not all railfans and model railroaders show OCD / Aspergers / Autistic tendencies. Most do not." Because I'm not a doctor I've use the words tendencies, behaviors, etc. |
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