Are Rail Enthusiasts Not Like Plane, Truck, Motorcycle Fans?

[mlehman]

The tragic Amtrak accident at Frankford Junction has brought out some interesting reporting on Amtrak budget cuts, the (spotty) progress of PTC, and the relative perils of various transportation modes. Not here to talk about that. What I have found a bit strange has been the reporting on the injured engineer, Brandon Bostian, and the various references made to his enthusiasm for trains. I've not read much beyond the NY Times and the local paper's AP stories. And I don't really doubt the fellow was an "unabashed nerd...[with] several model sets." Heck that could be any of us.

I guess I'm struck by how the tone of this seems to imply that the man wasn't doing his job, but playing with trains, apparently at the expense of people's lives. Perhaps he was looked down upon by fellow railroaders as a "foamer," although I've heard from several railroaders I've talked to in recent times, including at least one Amtrak employee, that is less of an issue than it used to be on the job. I know we have past and present RR employees here who might offer some insight.

Heck, even the suicide-obsessed German pilot seemed to have been treated with more respect by the press. When pilots or bus drivers are involved in accidents, their personal interest vs a strictly occupational interest just doesn't come up, even though commercial pilots often fly for fun and OTR drivers are often hot-rodders or have other motor sport-oriented interests.

Have others noticed this or am I just feeling the need for a little balance a bit too acutely? The NY Times story does strike an attempt at balancing such comments and has been rewritten several times so far, apparently in part to balance that line in the story, so perhaps they have received some feedback similar to mine here. I'm not really picking on anyone in the media here, just suggesting there seems to be a bit of a double standard when it comes to folks like us.

I bring this up in hopes of a good discussion about how our hobby feeds some odd and probably unfair stereotypes, not to argue the merits of the accident so much, which I know are throughly discussed elsewhere.

[Spikre]

Mike,
Your reminding me of that great song,"Momma,Momma,We're All Crazy Now" !!
we may not be as eccentric as Steve Hawking,but we are getting there.
now which way was Alice's Resturuant ??
got to get on the road again now,so Everybody Have Fun Tonite !!
and if 105 is Fast why are they still chasing True Hi-Speed Rail ??
when a Bullet Train Crashes it really is a True Disaster.
Spikre

[Deleted]

When people are ignorant of a subject they begin to refer to stereotypes. Everyone sees things like Thomas the train and just assume that model trains are kid stuff. They don't see the epic layouts or the layouts that are truly a work of art. I think that's why things like that Model Citizens project exists, to break those stereotypes and show the real thing. The real side of model railroading isn't as advertised as the kids toys are. You see commercials for Thomas the train toys, but how many commercials do you see of model trains? When's the last time you seen a commercial on tv by Athearn, Walthers, or some other company? Also, people in this day and age seem to be way to lazy to dive into internet and study something thoroughly. You also can't expect the news agencies in the USA to educate people either. It's all sensationalism, stereotypes, and agendas.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

On a whole the media doesn't know a railroad wheel from a railroad track. They don't need them to know the horsepower of a GP7, but the terms they use are so childish at times is hard to listen to and not shut off the TV.

Railroaders have in the past been very anti-railfan. Just think back to the stupid viral video on YouTube of the nimrod shouting like a moron when a train approaches. This just cements the view of the general public that railfans are a few bricks short of a load.

Usually when a plane crashes there aren't any survivors or very few. When a truck crashes, most people know at least something about trucks as we share the highway and roads with them everyday. There are a lot more truckers and people in the trucking industry than railroad employees. A whole lot more people have contact with the airlines and even air freight than railroads.

It has been a tough week for Amtrak. A locomotive caught fire on one of the Chicago to Milwaukee trains just short of Milwaukee yesterday. It was all over the news here in Wisconsin.

[Deleted]

I know this thread is about how people view model railroading, but another thing came to mind. If a shooting happens or something and the shooter played video games all the sudden video games are "murder simulators" according to the media. Being in the firearm hobby makes you a "right wing extremist" according to the news. If anything the firearm hobbies have the most uninformed people commenting on them. I saw a guy on CNN say that ar15s shoot "heat seeking bullets" once. It was unreal.

[atsfan]

Vast portions of the media are a wasteland.
Reader and viewer beware.
CNN? Really anybody looks at that today?

As for the engineer, he was online foaming about all sorts of things including gay marriage and Amtrak Unions and management.

[riogrande]

Unfair stereotypes are just that, unfair. Hollywood and the media does what they do and my feeling is it's best just to ignore the baloney thats out there and just enjoy ones self. I recall that movie with Catherine Zeta-Jones Intolerable Cruelty where they showed a rich guy who was a train fain jumping on a bed with hot chicks and singing train songs and dies of a heart attack or some nonsense. I'm in the hobby to relax and have a good time and the stuff we often read about or see on TV or in the movies can have exactly the opposite effect.

I suppose the only constructive purpose of this discussion is to vent for those who need to vent. Me? I don't really have any axes to grind; I recognize the stereotypes exist and then go back to enjoying the hobby at the level I find works best for me. I guess it depends on the person. For some, talking about an issue can wind them up and raise their blood pressure and really get them upset, and for others, it can be therapeutic? I often find reading MSN and other media, there is a lot of nonsense out there, more than ever. Often it really highlights how upsidedown the world can seem, so at times like that I really find for me it's nice to take a break from it, step away from the noise of the world, the swill that people can come up with, and clear my mind of the drivel. The stereotypes about rail fans and train nuts are part of that for sure. That is, after all, one of the reasons I'm in the hobby. So I can go down to the basement and forget the cares of the world.

[mlehman]

Jim,
It may just be venting for some, but I'm going to take a stab at something a little deeper (although maybe not much, because it involves semantics.... ).

Is it because many people think we spend our time playing with trains, while road and offroad sport fans spend time working on their vehicles while pilots *always* fly and are, thus, always captains of the air (updating the old, noble-sounding captain of the ship analogy, which has been around centuries longer)?

Play is serious business, quite frankly, in our work-obsessed, stress-laden society. Oftentimes, we rework that ourselves and turn it into "operations" -- which does apply to operating, but not the other 75% of the hobby, so to speak.

Is it because you can take up trains at any age, while you have to be an "adult" (whatever that means) to fly or drive? Obviously, so kids hop on the off-road bike, etc before driving age, but the trend otherwise holds true.

Then there is the way that efforts to turn RRing into an educational experience seem to find a niche in many countries. I can think of several "children's RR parks" in other countries and I'm talking about something more involved than the local Thomas visit. This even goes so far as actual narrowgauge RRs run by kids in some parts of the former Soviet Union. Yep, real steel and crossties and you could do far worse than out an eye out if you weren't paying attention. Yet kids were pretty much entrusted to learn and follow the rules.

Could it be because a locomotive engineer is just, after all, an ordinary worker who's not even in charge of the train? There is precious little respect for ordinary workers in this country in general and this could be just one more aspect of that.

I'm reluctant to just dump the thing at the feet of the "media." Sure, there's lots of bad media out there, but it really does tend to reflect its audience, because they keep coming back for more and it seems like we as a society in general tolerate and even encourage bad media, the internet in general being a prime example of just how much silly and irrelevant stuff is out there.

Maybe even many of us suspect the engineer was "just playing with trains" although I'd hope we're more generally wise enough to know the difference between play and work and rather assume that Amtrak, like any employer, carefully screens, educates and supervises its workers to the extent this sort of assertion is long-shot, irrelevant nonsense unless there's more to it than "he does like his trains" -- of which there is no evidence.

[Deleted]

The thing about vehicles and planes is those are still considered status items where model trains aren't. People who have nice off road vehicles, rebuilt hot rods, or a plane are assumed to be rich. Where as the guy with trains is assumed to be some old retired dude with no money to his name in his basement or some kid with a circle of track on his bedroom floor. I feel as if hobbies in general though are looked down upon in modern society. Even our schools continue to cut all the art, music, and woodshop classes. Most people my age in their 20s spend the majority of their free time partying and getting high out of their minds. I literally had one guy I knew ask me "Why do you waste your time putting things together when you could be partying?" It's kind of like Rome is burning around us and everyone is happy to waste their time watching it burn than to do something else.

[fr8kar]

May 16, 2015 7:25:04 GMT -8 mlehman said:

Could it be because a locomotive engineer is just, after all, an ordinary worker who's not even in charge of the train?

I mean no disrespect here, Mike, because I truly do have a lot of respect for you and your thoughtful opinions, but there is a real disconnect here. The engineer may not control the color of the signals or give out track warrants, but the engineer is definitely in charge of the train (jointly with the conductor) and in control of the movement of the train within the authority granted to the train. It is the engineer's responsibility to operate the train in accordance with all applicable rules and laws. It is a great responsibility that not a single engineer I know (and I personally know well over one hundred) takes lightly. These conditions of the job are often a big part of why each of us chose to become an engineer.

Even with the train control systems available to us (Positive Train Control, Trip Optimizer), we are still in charge and in control of the train. These systems sometimes fail leaving us to operate the train manually. Unfortunately they don't always fail when the train is stopped. Rarely, but it does happen, the computer will fail to acknowledge that you have crested a hill and you may find yourself on the verge of the computer taking the train out of control. In this case you must take control manually before a rule or speed restriction is violated or an unsafe condition is created. These systems are great: they're like having a catcher stand behind your starting catcher at home plate. There's a good chance they will work, but they can and do fail. Vigilance, experience and avoiding reliance on these systems is key to maintaining control of the train where these systems are used. For the record, these systems are only available on maybe 10% of trains on the territories I work, so actual hands-on knowledge and experience is required.

As far as being a foamer is concered (I hate that term since I've rarely seen the crazed excited and implicitly dangerous railfan it describes and certainly don't consider myself matching that description), I keep it to myself. I won't deny that I am interested in trains, but I hardly advertise it. Most of us judge each other by our body of work, so being labeled a foamer generally means you're fanning instead of doing your job in the rare instances I've run across tourists who get hired. They either get over it or wash out very quickly. Before long you establish a reputation based on how you work. Some guys rush up on signals or run hot and before long everyone knows it. Some guys run slow or even scared and word gets around about them, too. I hear enough, "I was relieved to see you were my engineer" or "oh good, I don't need to worry about getting in trouble," that I figure I must be doing something right.

I try to treat my coworkers with respect regardless of how much seniority they may have, to be open to new information or criticism, to educate and enlighten where I have relevant experience and to take seriously any disagreement we may have over the color of a signal, the maximum allowable speed for our train or the limits of our authority. The stakes are too high. I have my conductor's life in my hands. I have the lives of the crews we follow or who follow us in my hands. I have the lives of the crews we meet in my hands. I have the lives of the people in the communities we travel through in my hands. I have the quality and condition of the environment we move through in my hands. It is a great responsibility when you consider it all. If ever I cannot do my utmost to protect these people and things, I will stop the train safely.

I didn't choose to be an engineer so I can play trains. I chose the job because I knew that I was the right person for that responsibility. Someone has to be in charge of the train. I knew from the first day it should be me.

[mlehman]

May 16, 2015 8:45:11 GMT -8 fr8kar said:

May 16, 2015 7:25:04 GMT -8 mlehman said:

Could it be because a locomotive engineer is just, after all, an ordinary worker who's not even in charge of the train?

I mean no disrespect here, Mike, because I truly do have a lot of respect for you and your thoughtful opinions, but there is a real disconnect here. The engineer may not control the color of the signals or give out track warrants, but the engineer is definitely in charge of the train (jointly with the conductor) and in control of the movement of the train within the authority granted to the train. It is the engineer's responsibility to operate the train in accordance with all applicable rules and laws. It is a great responsibility that not a single engineer I know (and I personally know well over one hundred) takes lightly. These conditions of the job are often a big part of why each of us chose to become an engineer.

SNIP

The stakes are too high. I have my conductor's life in my hands. I have the lives of the crews we follow or who follow us in my hands. I have the lives of the crews we meet in my hands. I have the lives of the people in the communities we travel through in my hands. I have the quality and condition of the environment we move through in my hands. It is a great responsibility when you consider it all. If ever I cannot do my utmost to protect these people and things, I will stop the train safely.

I didn't choose to be an engineer so I can play trains. I chose the job because I knew that I was the right person for that responsibility. Someone has to be in charge of the train. I knew from the first day it should be me.

Ryan,
No disrespect intended by that statement and I think your comments point out just have far afield from relevancy Mr. Bostian's hobby is here. I was merely setting up a comment like yours that was more substantive than a strawman like that seems to be when thrown out to the masses to read or hear.

I have the utmost respect for any worker, at any job, probably more respect than I do for many in management these days (who are, after all, mostly workers, too, but who like us all should be judged on our individual merits, rather than by a stereotype.) And I certainly didn't mean to diss on the conductor(s), either.

I guess if there was more substance to some of the extraneous nonsense people have managed to draw into this, I could see some of the commentary as at least being justified by simply misunderstanding the nature of the job, but most of it doesn't even rise to that, instead focusing on petty and irrelevant details.

And some comments are simply made in ignorance. For instance, Phila. Mayor Nutter's comment that the only way it wasn't the engineer's fault entirely would be if he'd had a heart attack. That one also goes to the point another aspect of this. Your comment about the deeply felt personal responsibility railroader have is very typical. No one can be in charge of operating with that much responsibility and last long unless they do take it seriously. They wash out or are asked to leave.

I had an acquaintance, yes, a model rail, who went to work for a major railroad whose name starts with "Uncle"...
As a conductor, yep, he was in charge, but both he and the engineer apparently slept through a red board and T-boned another freight at a diamond. He no longer works for the RR, but the issue wasn't his modeling, but perhaps his maladapative sleep patterns. Some people deal better than others with that. But it is known as a systemic problem in the industry about which much more could be done, if only the economics of it costing more didn't make it something that the RRs resist. Sure, it was his responsibility to be awake and alert and he paid the cost, fortunately not the ultimate cost for anyone on what was a very scary and fiery day, to say the least.

But these systemic issues are just as amenable to being fixed as individual employees may be if they fail in their duties. They are just far more complex to diagnose and far more difficult to resolve than a personnel decision about any individual worker. Firing them may make a few people in management happy, but if it is a systemic issue, then that does little to change the circumstances others may face in the future.

This is even more clear here at one of the major universities involved in RR engineering. My wife has lunch with many of them, subject matter experts if you will, and their phones have been ringing off the hook from media wanting them to speculate on things when we're far from getting all the facts. So they've just been stonewalling such premature speculation as a group until a reasonable set of facts can be assembled. As several of them have noted, even if Mr. Bostian shares some (yet to be established) responsibility here, it's unlikely that is the only factor involved. Any thoughtful observer would want those other factors addressed, too, not simply dumping it all on the engineer.

[mlehman]

May 15, 2015 18:50:33 GMT -8 @monolith said:

When people are ignorant of a subject they begin to refer to stereotypes.
SNIP
I think that's why things like that Model Citizens project exists, to break those stereotypes and show the real thing. The real side of model railroading isn't as advertised as the kids toys are...

Monolith,
Good point on the Model Citizen documentary. I feel my $10 donation is being put to good use there. I'm sure it won't resolve the issues we see here, but it could surely help.

Thanks to the others who have offered thoughtful and relevant comments, too, don't mean to slight anyone in responding to this thread, just been a busy morning. I very much appreciate the (generally) trenchant comments so far.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

Ownership of trucks and motorcycles are possible for many people. Aviation does require more of an investment but many still enjoy being able to fly and or own aircraft.

Unless you are Warren Buffet owning your own train is unattainable. Even private rail car ownership is so expensive. To purchase a car and make it Amtrak compatible is in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Hooking that car on the end of an Amtrak train is many times in the tens of thousands of dollars. So very few can own even one rail car.

Another thing to consider is people that own motorcycles, trucks, classic cars and planes are real 1:1 vehicles. To most people model trains, Lionel or Thomas are toys and that is where the disconnect occurs. Models are not real trains. Even railroad museums dealing with real trains can have more than its fair share of the fringe element. I spent 10 years as an active volunteer at the Illinois Railway Museum and know from what I speak. Also, many people that are employed by railroads do not respect the efforts of volunteers. Some professional railroaders do respect the work of the members at IRM and other museums, but many do not and view it as "a bunch of foamers playing with real trains instead of their toy trains". Again, I know from what I speak.

[mlehman]

May 16, 2015 10:59:26 GMT -8 Great-Northern-Willmar Div said:

SNIP
Even railroad museums dealing with real trains can have more than its fair share of the fringe element. I spent 10 years as an active volunteer at the Illinois Railway Museum and know from what I speak. Also, many people that are employed by railroads do not respect the efforts of volunteers. Some professional railroaders do respect the work of the members at IRM and other museums, but many do not and view it as "a bunch of foamers playing with real trains instead of their toy trains". Again, I know from what I speak.

Jim,
I'm sure that's been an issue, but it's also one that should be changing. As you probably know, increasingly strict federal requirements, not to mention issues like rising insurance costs and changing liability environments, have changed that in recent years. Don't most museums now require a process to qualify to operate that is similar to commercial RRing?

That's my impression, although maybe I'm wrong about this.

I know my wife's office mate (she programs for the big U's mainframe apps), who is the one she hangs out with all the RR engineering profs at lunch with, recently qualified as an engineer at the local museum (Monticello RR Museum) and it was a rather lengthy and involved process. I guess he qualifies as a foamer now that he has his license and not just the urge to foam?

In any case, his primary interest is rail photography and he has been published in multiple places, from Trains on down the list. Even before becoming more than a photog, he behaved well enough to be respected by railroaders all across the region. In recent years, because of his specialized knowledge of signals (this is where being a computer nerd will get you), he actually been an adjunct instructor in this area in one of the basic RR engineering classes here.

Then there are the RRs themselves. I forget where I was reading it (some article to do with signaling IIRC or at least partially ), but recently learned of another Class One that is using model railroad layouts as part of the training before hitting the tracks. Like I said, I'm not up on all the trends, but that seems respectable enough to me.

I guess I'm one of the people who believe you don't need to own something to be responsible. In fact, I rather much believe most people act responsibly most of the time, despite plenty of evidence that some people don't. Obviously, evidence of irresponsibility should be taken seriously. But a man's hobby is hardly evidence of that any more than volunteering at a museum could be, I suspect.

[Great-Northern-Willmar Div]

May 16, 2015 12:56:17 GMT -8 mlehman said:

May 16, 2015 10:59:26 GMT -8 Great-Northern-Willmar Div said:

SNIP
Even railroad museums dealing with real trains can have more than its fair share of the fringe element. I spent 10 years as an active volunteer at the Illinois Railway Museum and know from what I speak. Also, many people that are employed by railroads do not respect the efforts of volunteers. Some professional railroaders do respect the work of the members at IRM and other museums, but many do not and view it as "a bunch of foamers playing with real trains instead of their toy trains". Again, I know from what I speak.

Jim,
I'm sure that's been an issue, but it's also one that should be changing. As you probably know, increasingly strict federal requirements, not to mention issues like rising insurance costs and changing liability environments, have changed that in recent years. Don't most museums now require a process to qualify to operate that is similar to commercial RRing?

That's my impression, although maybe I'm wrong about this.

I know my wife's office mate (she programs for the big U's mainframe apps), who is the one she hangs out with all the RR engineering profs at lunch with, recently qualified as an engineer at the local museum (Monticello RR Museum) and it was a rather lengthy and involved process. I guess he qualifies as a foamer now that he has his license and not just the urge to foam?

In any case, his primary interest is rail photography and he has been published in multiple places, from Trains on down the list. Even before becoming more than a photog, he behaved well enough to be respected by railroaders all across the region. In recent years, because of his specialized knowledge of signals (this is where being a computer nerd will get you), he actually been an adjunct instructor in this area in one of the basic RR engineering classes here.

Then there are the RRs themselves. I forget where I was reading it (some article to do with signaling IIRC or at least partially ), but recently learned of another Class One that is using model railroad layouts as part of the training before hitting the tracks. Like I said, I'm not up on all the trends, but that seems respectable enough to me.

I guess I'm one of the people who believe you don't need to own something to be responsible. In fact, I rather much believe most people act responsibly most of the time, despite plenty of evidence that some people don't. Obviously, evidence of irresponsibility should be taken seriously. But a man's hobby is hardly evidence of that any more than volunteering at a museum could be, I suspect.

Having to qualify to be a ground man, conductor or engineer has been around way before I became active at IRM in 1985. But there is no qualification process to needle chip the tender on the UP 428. So you still can and do get the fringe who's sole purpose is really not to preserve the artifacts but to twist the throttle. Most of the time these people disappear when they learn the process is lengthy and pick up on the cold hard truth that no one wants them to be qualified to operate anything more complex than a broom.

Railroads have used models of yards to train operating personal for 30 years or more. I remember an article about Big Yellow outfitting a former passenger car with a complete HO model of a yard to train personnel in the 1970's.

But it still holds true to keep your toy train and or rail fan hat in the closet with your co-workers if you work for railroad. There is STILL bias especially in supervisory positions towards fans. The first thing you learn when you go to work for a railroad is fall in the group that the job sucks and never indicate any interest other than the paycheck. For if you get "outed" it can mean your job.

[Brakie]

Time was when the conductor was in full charge of his train and I believe that still applies.

The newest rule BS is the conductor asks the engineer how does he intend to stop the train and where at-this is before reaching a red block.

Amtrak has nobody in the cab except the engineer..Would a second man been able to apply the emergency air before the curve? Yes.. Would the train slow enough before it reached the curve? Maybe.

As far as railfans..Guess what? The last thing I wanted my fellow railroaders to know I was a train buff..That would get you fired the first time you stood before the man because of a rule infraction you broke--word does get around.

Their thoughts would be-your mind was on railfaning and not your job.

[mlehman]

May 16, 2015 14:41:50 GMT -8 Brakie said:

SNIP

Amtrak has nobody in the cab except the engineer..Would a second man been able to apply the emergency air before the curve? Yes.. Would the train slow enough before it reached the curve? Maybe.

Larry,
Thanks for that, I was meaning to bring that up since that thinking of that issue when I mentioned the friend who was in the major accident. It didn't help to have two crew up front in the dawn light of summer at 6am.

On the other hand, passenger is not freight. The conductor doesn't ride up front as a second set of eyes on Amtrak in general unless I've been missing something. He's walking the cars. In this sense, Amtrak is a bit iffier than most freight, where even with reduced crews, there still are two up front (don't want to start a discussion about single-person crews here really, either, although I'm aware of pressures to adopt this questionable practice.)

Since we don't know details that could determine whether having a second crew person up front would have made a difference, it's speculative to say "sure it would." On the other hand, this is a case where simple fatigue could have been the culprit and such nodding off, if it was what occurred, would have perhaps led to intervention if someone else was up front. I actually don't recall any recent Amtrak accidents due directly to fatigue, just commuter rail ones, but maybe someone recalls better than I do on that point. Which is not to say this could not be a symptom of recent pressure to work crews harder due to the shaky finances at Amtrak as it's kept in a state of constant crisis that could now be popping up. One presumes regulations are written tightly enough to avoid that issue on the rail. My experience in the trucking industry tells me not to trust the fed minimum rest requirements as either sacrosanct or adequate to address the problem, but multiperson crews and union agreements do give rail workers a greater capacity to resist rule-waffling on hours of rest than truckers typically enjoy.

May 16, 2015 14:41:50 GMT -8 Brakie said:

SNIP
Their thoughts would be-your mind was on railfaning and not your job.

I know you and Jim weren't born yesterday and that's your own experience and intuition based on it, but I do think that has been changing. That's one reason why the portrayal of our hobby in this manner bothered me in the absence of any other indication of fault by Bostian. All I know about the present is when the NS business train is through the area, my wife's office mate takes pictures from the rear platform, not from beside the ROW. So I think the things I've heard about that changing have some basis. The same thing with the students who are members of the Illini RR Club. They probably can never again afford to travel in club PVs like they used to up through the 60s, but they've taken on quite an air of professionalism when the showed up at this year's train show after it ended its multi-year hiatus. I'm certain you're both right that certain prejudices still exist in the industry among some in management, but I also suspect that is changing based on the evidence I've seen. That's another reason for my concern, a desire to avoid pointlessly backtracking to such Neanderthal attitudes in times when most industries seek out those who are passionate about their work.

[atsfan]

Working for a railroad seems like misery.
I have never heard anyone who works for a railroad on the road say anything other than how horrible management is.
And the lousy work conditions.
And that if you like trains god forbid, the railroad will look for ways to fire you if you miss some rule once

[Brakie]

May 16, 2015 16:57:53 GMT -8 atsfan said:

Working for a railroad seems like misery.
I have never heard anyone who works for a railroad on the road say anything other than how horrible management is.
And the lousy work conditions.
And that if you like trains god forbid, the railroad will look for ways to fire you if you miss some rule once

With today's railroad management you can get fired for any infraction of the rules. Today it seems the railroad men is playing against a pad hand and peeking Tommy is all to quick to take you out of service until you stand before the man.

Another scary thought is railroads would like nothing better then to use a one man crew-the engineer. Imagined a lone engineer on a 12,000 foot monster and don't forget he is not allowed to leave the cab even if there is a defect in the train.Help is a carman that covers a 50 or 60 mile section of track in a pickup truck.

[atsfan]

May 16, 2015 17:28:45 GMT -8 Brakie said:

May 16, 2015 16:57:53 GMT -8 atsfan said:

Working for a railroad seems like misery.
I have never heard anyone who works for a railroad on the road say anything other than how horrible management is.
And the lousy work conditions.
And that if you like trains god forbid, the railroad will look for ways to fire you if you miss some rule once

With today's railroad management you can get fired for any infraction of the rules. Today it seems the railroad men is playing against a pad hand and peeking Tommy is all to quick to take you out of service until you stand before the man.

Another scary thought is railroads would like nothing better then to use a one man crew-the engineer. Imagined a lone engineer on a 12,000 foot monster and don't forget he is not allowed to leave the cab even if there is a defect in the train.Help is a carman that covers a 50 or 60 mile section of track in a pickup truck.

I don't get the fire them all mentality.
CSX spews about Quality.
Firing everyone for any tiny rule infraction is not quality.

[mlehman]

Some interesting new developments in the last few days about the "rocking" incidents around the time of the accident following a news conference late on Friday. This is mostly taken from a NY Times article.

It was known since right afterwards that a local commuter train (SEPTA) was also rocked, but it was said to be unrelated. Turns out that the SEPTA train had been disabled and was passed by Amtrak 188 as it sat waiting for relief just before 188 crashed. There now turns out to be a 3rd train, a southbound Acela had a side passenger window taken out in the area. And at least one assistant conductor on 188 recalls the engineer (Bostian) talking about the rocking going on in the area just moments before the crash.

Then a pic was included that suggests at least one possibility, which we'll get to in a moment.

The Septa engineer, apparently in a control cab rather than a loco cab, had to be aided by passengers as he was disoriented from the windshield shattering, although he did manage to stop the Septa train. Most likely, this train was going much slower than 188 was when it was hit.

I've never been on a train being rocked, so can only try to imagine the shock of it happening. Even if you'd been warned it could happen in the area, when it does at night, it would have to be an utterly shocking experience. Sure, the year old loco had the latest armored glazing. I imagine it's even bulletproof, up a to a point. But how would you know what was going on and keep your cool under those circumstances. You couldn't really see anything coming, so no warning. The passengers on the Septa train did not describe any physical injury to their engineer, so the glazing aboard it did its job, although it was clear the engineer was in no shape to continue the run.

Here is an enlarged crop of 188 loco where it came to rest after derailing alone and relatively undamaged out ahead of the remainder of the wreck.



Never having been in the cab, I can't say that the obvious hits to the windshield are directly in the line of sight of the engineer, but they are close enough to depict a rather disturbing and instantaneous scenario if caused by thrown objects. One would be checking one's drawers, to say the least, if that happened to most of us at speed. If it happened at a crucial moment, as one former engineer stated succinctly, it could certainly cause a loss of situational awareness. Did the throttle get jammed forward, instead of backed off? That's certainly a possibility that fits other known facts, although would still be speculative in the absence of other evidence.

AFAIK, all onboard recording equipment was recovered and no mention has been made of any problems with it. One can presume that the cab cams (I presume the engineer is covered by one, but perhaps only the forward view, depending on labor agreements, etc, if anyone knows, chime in) have had their files downloaded and at least a cursory review made at this point. It may very well be that some solid leads in terms of location and time are being pursued in hopes of identifying those responsible and that the Friday news conference was timed to enlist anyone who could come forward with info to do so. If that is so, I'd expect little else to be said prior to an arrest, unless there was a need to encourage witnesses with additional info.

Obviously, there could have been a rocking that caused this and was irrelevant to the outcome. Again, presumably the cab cam will help with this question.

As my wife argued, lots of things could break a windshield during an accident and I agree up to a point. Signals and signage can cause this as the loco skidded to rest by flattening them on its way to where it ended up. Things could get kicked up that take a bad bounce and hit the windshield. And other possibilities exist.

But some of the detail we can see makes it look more like a rocking incident. The damage looks like it was caused by individual projectiles. They look like point-on hits, not longer gashes that signage or a signal mast might create. Obviously a job for the experts to work out.

Another important clue is that the adjacent wiper blade appears undamaged, another indication of a point on strike. Anything like a mast that could swipe across the front of the loco would likely to have damaged or destroyed the wiper.

There also appears to be some damage to the engineer side A pillar of the cab, although that may be mud. Any other observations?

[WP 257]

The thing I'm finding most disturbing is the plethora of local TV news, here in Central PA, and in the newspapers to the point of "What will it take to make trains safe?" (today's newspaper front page headline). This completely ignores recent statistics that for at least a few years passenger rail travel has become every bit as safe as flying, and clearly shows the news media's intent to do whatever sells at the expense of real facts.

Here we've already had to endure several weeks of news regarding "bomb trains" as some PA elected officials and news media have taken to calling the oil trains...and the pledges to eliminate "bomb trains" from our local cities.

OK, so I suppose having that oil on the highway would be somehow safer?

Or that building pipelines, which takes a lot of time and money, would be somehow safer? Plus they conveniently forget that pipelines, no matter how well engineered, can leak--and underground you can't necessarily see the leak until it's too late and major damage has ensued. So as a civil engineer, I truly question the wisdom of those who think that some pipeline will be environmentally "safer" than having that oil on the rails where it is now.

There's a huge, deep underground water aquifer in the western US that was allegedly contaminated by nuclear testing many years ago. How nice it would be to be able to use that water now with the major drought we have out west. That is just one reason I'm somewhat anti-pipeline. You can't totally trust engineers--nothing can be perfectly designed and absolutely foolproof.

I remain almost mystified at the horrendous news coverage of the railroads.

Plus nobody has mentioned the unfunded mandate costs of forcing PTC onto privately owned freight railroads.

[atsfan]

This,pretty much sums it up.

[markfj]

As just an average railfan, not a railroad employee, I’m very slow to announce to anyone other than fellow enthusiasts (such as on forums or at meets) that I’m active in the hobby. It seems that hobbies in general these days are looked down upon by most people. I recall when Rod Stewart made the cover of MR and was pretty much laughed at on the one late night show because he, a world famous pop star, “played” with trains.


Also, in this post 9/11 world, my trackside railfanning is pretty much over. Why? Well, it’s almost a given that someone with a cell phone will likely call the cops on me if I’m taking train photos (even in an open, public space). And I guess that’s probably a good thing, since anyone could be a terrorist or trouble marker these days. Plus, I don’t want the crews to worry either. It’s clear from what others have posted that they have enough stress getting their job done safely that they don’t need to worry about someone photographing them while they’re doing it.


Mark

[gevohogger]

May 17, 2015 13:55:11 GMT -8 WP 257 said:

Here we've already had to endure several weeks of news regarding "bomb trains" as some PA elected officials and news media have taken to calling the oil trains...and the pledges to eliminate "bomb trains" from our local cities.

I watched one report which asked: What would happen if one of the "bomb trains" derailed at speeds similar to that of Amtrak 188?  IE - In excess of a hundred miles per hour?  The story was complete with speeded-up film of oil trains passing at a busy grade crossing.  I think they must be expecting another SP Cajon Pass Runaway type of accident to happen!  Not going to happen here in the flat midwest.

[gevohogger]

May 18, 2015 5:43:36 GMT -8 markfj said:

Also, in this post 9/11 world, my trackside railfanning is pretty much over. Why? Well, it’s almost a given that someone with a cell phone will likely call the cops on me if I’m taking train photos (even in an open, public space). And I guess that’s probably a good thing, since anyone could be a terrorist or trouble marker these days.

You might be getting called in by the train crews themselves.  We've had more than a few who think it is great sport to get fans busted when they point cameras at them, even when on public property.  A man in a parking lot with a big camera....  It might be a rocket launcher!  Better call him in.  Frankly its embarrassing but it is what it is.

[Brakie]

Also, in this post 9/11 world, my trackside railfanning is pretty much over. Why? Well, it’s almost a given that someone with a cell phone will likely call the cops on me if I’m taking train photos (even in an open, public space).
-----------------------------------------
I railfan just about every evening and nobody as called the cops-not even the passing train crews..I have never had a problem taking photos around NS Bellevue or CSX Willard yards.

I fully believe there has been a lot of on line hype about railfaning issues that may not exist...You are aware 2 new railfan parks has been built within the last 5 years in Ohio?

[atsfan]

Not railfanning today is silly.
I do all the time and nobody has ever bothered me.
Of course I don't do anything dumb either like blatant trespassing or stalking a train yard.

[atsfan]

May 18, 2015 5:43:36 GMT -8 markfj said:

As just an average railfan, not a railroad employee, I’m very slow to announce to anyone other than fellow enthusiasts (such as on forums or at meets) that I’m active in the hobby. It seems that hobbies in general these days are looked down upon by most people. I recall when Rod Stewart made the cover of MR and was pretty much laughed at on the one late night show because he, a world famous pop star, “played” with trains.


Also, in this post 9/11 world, my trackside railfanning is pretty much over. Why? Well, it’s almost a given that someone with a cell phone will likely call the cops on me if I’m taking train photos (even in an open, public space). And I guess that’s probably a good thing, since anyone could be a terrorist or trouble marker these days. Plus, I don’t want the crews to worry either. It’s clear from what others have posted that they have enough stress getting their job done safely that they don’t need to worry about someone photographing them while they’re doing it.


Mark

This post saddens me.

[WP 257]

Maybe out west where there's still some semblance of common sense and consideration for your fellow man remaining in America you can get away with railfanning like some of us used to, but in the east, in Pennsylvania, railfans need to be very careful.

Here there are places where we can railfan, legally, from OFF the railroad property, and get a good view of the subject...common well-known photo locations.

BUT for those who venture too close to the tracks, the RR police ask for your driver's license (hint--don't ever volunteer it, as some have stupidly done). Then they log you and the very next time you are EVER caught on NS or CSX right-of-way, you will be prosecuted for trespassing. That has been made crystal clear to some of my friends and acquaintances.

I don't go on RR right-of-way without a good reason (like my engineering work) and haven't in many years, but as a 20-something, I did venture into Newberry Junction, Williamsport, PA, in clear view of the yard office, and took a few photos on a few occasions, and I've stood in the gauge at Cajon Summit and snapped a few quick images each way...but I would not attempt that now. Even before 9/11 I got "yelled" at by the RR police on Cajon. They politely asked me to get going, as in right now. They were pretty nice about it, realizing I had come a long way just to stop briefly.

Best place to find Alcos up close is from the Steamtown Station Platform. DL has a very strict no trespassing policy--but Steamtown is a National Park, and as such you can get up close and personal with anything idling right there, which can include old Alcos. As long as you don't climb on them, there's nothing the folks in the D-L tower immediately nearby can do to stop you!