|
|
Post by riogrande on Aug 5, 2012 15:52:11 GMT -8
Curt, I still need a ER Souther waffle in the original paint scheme but I haven't seen any available - yes, I haven't overturned every stone but I'll have to keep my eye open at the next T show. Pretty much any I do see are $30/31 so I'd love to find one for $10 like you saw but I guess I wasn't in the right place at the right time, but I rarely am. The ER Southern Waffle is on my "Want" list which I'm slowly working my way through.
BTW, you mentioned the Athearn Railboxes, I thought I read that they were incorrect anyway, incorrect roof IIRC. If so, Athearns Railbox should be discounted if folks are looking to include "correct" cars in the discussion.
|
|
|
|
Post by drolsen on Aug 5, 2012 15:59:36 GMT -8
I'm sorry, but the "3 Foot Rule" is rapidly becoming an excuse for complaining that a manufacturer didn't produce a model of someone's favorite prototype... Dave ... while you have the 2% true rivet counting detailers bellyaching and wanting $35 or more replacements for every single car that hasn't been done perfectly so far. Dave, As for the Tangent PS4740 and PS4750 you mentioned... Although I'm sure some few wanted them and will buy them, they are a wasted effort in my opinion. I was referring to any PS 4740 or 4750 model in my previous post. Why bother improving on the Athearn 4740 or producing a (Intermountain) PS 4750 at all if all you're interested in is the "3 Foot Rule" level of quality? You can't tell the difference between them at 3 feet. Why include separate grab irons on anything? You can't see those from 3 feet away. Why complain repeatedly on several forums about a Berwick 7580 box car painted as a Chessie B-130 7327 cuft box car? You can't tell the difference from 3 feet away. Why complain about needing an accurate Tropicana reefer? Why not simply apply the Tropicana scheme to ExactRail's TrinCool reefer? No one except rivet counters can tell the difference between the two from 3 feet away anyway. You can't apply a double standard to your complaints about new models, attack people who like models that you don't like, and expect people to take you seriously. Nope, I dismissed that model when I said "in the past decade." The Athearn ACF Plate B box car is ancient and seriously flawed, and should be redone. Yes, the Precision Design box cars are Plate B, but they are an older model also - in October (undoubtedly before the FMC 5077 is released), it will be 10 years since it was first announced (July of next year for the exterior post PD car, so it's only 9 years old). You've probably forgotten how long it's been. I'm pretty sure it's not unreasonable to want to see another Plate B box car in a decade. But I guess it's unreasonable for anyone to want a model that you don't want, Curt. The PD box cars probably sold poorly because they weren't a very common car. There weren't a lot of popular road names that could be applied to them. Atlas has had a long relationship with ACF and obviously had lots of access to drawings and other data, but the PD box cars just weren't as popular as the ACF 5090 (the "Railbox") or the many Plate C cars that have shown up since then. You can complain about manufacturers producing models that you don't like, and then accuse them of "applying more paint schemes to old models," but they do have more customers than just you to appeal to. And believe it or not, a lot of those models actually get produced because "rivet counters" put in hours of work providing the information to manufacturers to help them produce those models, rather than simply complaining about them on the internet. Dave |
|
|
|
Post by roadkill on Aug 5, 2012 16:22:29 GMT -8
The important thing is that none of the announcements make any of my in-progress kitbashes obsolete. Good to see someone take a positive attitude about not getting EXACTLY what they want RTR and for $4.95! Notice how after people gripe about what Atlas, Athearn, ExactRail, etc aren't doing to their satisfaction, they almost never say, "Well, I'm just going to build it myself."  Ok... I'll play your game... since I didn't get my Athearn SDP45 (SD45M), I'll just build some myself   |
|
|
|
Post by drolsen on Aug 5, 2012 16:39:51 GMT -8
BTW, you mentioned the Athearn Railboxes, I thought I read that they were incorrect anyway, incorrect roof IIRC. If so, Athearns Railbox should be discounted if folks are looking to include "correct" cars in the discussion. The Athearn "Railbox" has an incorrect roof (X-panel instead of the Stanray diagonal panel that ACF used), the car is too wide, and I also discovered that it is too short in length. About 6 years ago, I decided to upgrade one - I figured it would be a relatively straightforward project removing the old roof, narrowing the body, and installing Moloco's excellent diagonal panel roof. To give you an idea of how wide it is, the Moloco roof would have had no eaves if applied to the car as is - it would look like a non-overhanging roof. I cut the car in half lengthwise and removed what I thought was the appropriate amount, but then discovered the car was too short in length. I cut the ends off the car along the inboard edge of the side grab iron panel at each end of the car and added (I think) .080" styrene strip spacers to lengthen the car (that was about as much extra length as I thought could get away with to make the grab irons still look good). I still had to cut the blank end panels off the Moloco roof and shorten them a little to make it fit right (without lengthening the car even more), then reattach them to the roof. Here's a photo of the car at that point - I didn't really get any further because I had lots of other projects on the bench and didn't feel like putting this much work into a car that I figured will be replaced with a better model eventually: www.pbase.com/intermodal/image/61672459I really enjoy kitbash projects like this - trying to salvage a model with issues and build something that looks fairly accurate. But in this case, I need about a dozen of them for my CSX fleet, and it was too daunting a task to try to kitbash even a couple of these. I think someone will redo this car eventually because it's a very common prototype for the '70s and later. Dave |
|
|
|
Post by riogrande on Aug 5, 2012 16:58:27 GMT -8
Ok... I'll play your game... since I didn't get my Athearn SDP45 (SD45M), I'll just build some myself I'll play that game too. If you build one yourself, shortly after your finished, a company will release a detailed ready to run version and the fans of that diesel will thank you!  Some models it's easier to make an argument for offering a better version, and I'm sure not everyone will always agree which are worth redoing and which aren't, but the Athearn blue box models which are older, cruder tooling I think more modelers might wish there is a better model. Yes, I have a few of the Athearn CF4740 3 bay hoppers, including a couple of the RTR Orange D&RGW models from 6 years ago, not the newest run, and they are not high on my priority list to replace and my modest hobby budget is going toward freight cars I don't have. But, I will admit, they are a bit long in the tooth in terms of the shell and end treatment etc being heavy and more crude - so I can conceed, Trangent redid that model and discriminating modelers will be glad of it. The Intermountain CF4750 covered hoppers are a couple decades better in terms of detail and tooling so yeah, it's harder to argue for having that model replaced with a "2010" state of the art tooled version. In my case, I'm not yet replacing either my Athearn CF4740 or my IMR CF4750. I can certainly see why people would fault Tangent for not tooling up a model never done before. My only guess is the CEO of Tangent is a personal fan of covered hoppers (duh!) and that he/she is biased and is going to tool up something they like and want to see a better model of. That is their perogative - as long as they don't go in the hole doing it but thats the risk they take when they want their baby done, come hell or high water? Well, many not that bad =P |
|
|
|
Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 5, 2012 17:00:57 GMT -8
Yes, Roger, get to work. I need a bunch of them, too.
Ed
|
|
|
|
Post by roadkill on Aug 5, 2012 17:09:07 GMT -8
Yes, Roger, get to work. I need a bunch of them, too. Ed With my luck just as the paint dries on my last one Athearn will announce theirs... |
|
|
|
Post by drolsen on Aug 5, 2012 22:10:29 GMT -8
My only guess is the CEO of Tangent is a personal fan of covered hoppers (duh!) and that he/she is biased and is going to tool up something they like and want to see a better model of. That is their perogative - as long as they don't go in the hole doing it but thats the risk they take when they want their baby done, come hell or high water? Well, many not that bad =P The CEO, chief researcher, designer, marketing manager, and spokesperson are all the same guy. I think he has a friend or family member or two help with shipping, but aside from that, it's a one man show. It's pretty amazing what he's accomplished that way. Dave |
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cutler III on Aug 6, 2012 6:43:41 GMT -8
Atlas sales of the Precision 50' boxcars were poor (thus multiple reruns to try to make the money back)... Waitaminute... Curt, did you actually just say this? Because of poor sales, Atlas did multiple runs of it? Are you serious? That's got to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen from you, Curt. Why in the world would Atlas or any manufacturer continue to throw good money after bad? If something doesn't sell well, it might get made once more to see if it was just bad timing, but after two runs of poor selling items, they're going to stop making them (see: Atlas AEM-7). They are not going to do multiple runs, let alone seven (yes, seven!) runs of the darn things. Heck, they did four runs of the 50' Precision boxcar in two year's time (March 2002, July 2003, September 2003, and March 2004). That's a bad seller? |
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Aug 6, 2012 6:44:12 GMT -8
Good to see someone take a positive attitude about not getting EXACTLY what they want RTR and for $4.95! Notice how after people gripe about what Atlas, Athearn, ExactRail, etc aren't doing to their satisfaction, they almost never say, "Well, I'm just going to build it myself." Ok... I'll play your game... since I didn't get my Athearn SDP45 (SD45M), I'll just build some myself If you build it, then it isn't a game, it's a hobby. I hate over-generalizations, so I'll preface the following comments by making it clear that I think it's rare that any of us fall exclusively in either category... Thanks to the explosion of RTR items in the last couple of decades, there are two general worldviews when discussing what's available from manufacturers. There are the model railroaders and there are the collectors. Model railroaders usually have or aspire to a layout. They are looking for overall effect in making their choices as consumers in order to build a model of an operating transportation system. Good modeling is important to them, whether they buy it RTR or build it themselves. They realize there are always compromises in any model, but they also realize how unrealistic it is to expect every single item they have to be a 100%, pull-out-all-the-stops, bleeding edge, state of the art exact replica of the prototype, whether it's a loco, a car, a structure, track, etc.... The collector often but not always marks the attributes of a few, well-chosen items as of over-arching importance to them. They can be hyper-critical about the latest loco release, but not really care about a whole range of other aspects of the hobby. There are only so many minutes in the day, so to most productively use them, it's best to spend a lot of that time letting others know how disappointed you are in what's available to consume... Because they will not build it themselves, have no intention of doing so, and feel that that getting exactly what they want should be so blindingly obvious to everyone that it is the most important need in the market right now. If a manufacturer fails to fulfill their needs in every way possible -- and even in some ways that are impossible  -- then a barrage of criticism is likely to make it clear to everyone how their failure to satisfy you will result in imminent failure of that vendor. Except that rarely happens, perhaps even more rarely than one of these collectors actually building something themselves that is up to the standards that they stubbornly hold others to. Because that would be -- GASP! -- model railroading, not collecting. Don't get me wrong. I like great models and shake my head at some things that just don't make sense, like Bachmann investing in updating a F-unit, but still unable to put a nose light in one they plan to sell decorated for the Rio Grande. I won't buy one, got too many Genesis Fs already -- but if I did need some Rio Grande Fs, it's no big deal to put another light in one. Should Bachmann bother with this model because I'm not getting ready to buy some? That's Bachmann's problem, not mine, but I'm not so self-deceived that I imagine my comments on the matter should matter. The market will sort it out, which it seems to do. If the vendors were really so incompetent, inaccurate, uncaring, ignorant of customer needs, etc, etc, most of them wouldn't be here now after years of withering criticism from certain quarters. But they are, suggesting that the market has made decisions that suit most consumers. Makes me wonder, though, if rather than the trashed economy or problems with manufacturing in China being at the root of industry malaise, maybe it's just in a funk because too many model railroaders read and believed the hyper-critical collector's comments that there was nothing worth buying anyway? Could we, as a hobby, exist if the only models released were those that somehow suddenly start pleasing the usual suspects? Most likely not, as the inevitable result of pushing standards to extremes is higher prices. That seems pretty unpopular by itself around here. But then you have those who combine demands for exceptional quality with demands for lower prices and somehow we have just entered the Twilight Zone...where the normal laws of economics are suspended in order to satisfy collectors...probably NOT!  |
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Aug 6, 2012 17:09:04 GMT -8
The important thing is that none of the announcements make any of my in-progress kitbashes obsolete. Good to see someone take a positive attitude about not getting EXACTLY what they want RTR and for $4.95! Notice how after people gripe about what Atlas, Athearn, ExactRail, etc aren't doing to their satisfaction, they almost never say, "Well, I'm just going to build it myself." Yes. My point is I HAVE done this over the years and have more 50 foot boxcars than a real railroad. So now getting $35 new ones after a 2 year wait is not realistic. |
|
|
|
Post by atsfan on Aug 6, 2012 17:12:26 GMT -8
Curt, I still need a ER Souther waffle in the original paint scheme but I haven't seen any available - yes, I haven't overturned every stone but I'll have to keep my eye open at the next T show. Pretty much any I do see are $30/31 so I'd love to find one for $10 like you saw but I guess I wasn't in the right place at the right time, but I rarely am. The ER Southern Waffle is on my "Want" list which I'm slowly working my way through. BTW, you mentioned the Athearn Railboxes, I thought I read that they were incorrect anyway, incorrect roof IIRC. If so, Athearns Railbox should be discounted if folks are looking to include "correct" cars in the discussion. Hey back in the day those Athearn "Railbox" cars were made in dozens and dozens of roadnames. Anyone in the hobby for the last 20 years should have fleets of them at good prices. They are nice cars even if not perfect. Personally I find 50 foot boxcars not worth the effort to super detail or pay for same. Grain cars maybe. But not a box car. |
|
|
|
Post by Brakie on Aug 6, 2012 17:31:11 GMT -8
Curt, I still need a ER Souther waffle in the original paint scheme but I haven't seen any available - yes, I haven't overturned every stone but I'll have to keep my eye open at the next T show. Pretty much any I do see are $30/31 so I'd love to find one for $10 like you saw but I guess I wasn't in the right place at the right time, but I rarely am. The ER Southern Waffle is on my "Want" list which I'm slowly working my way through. BTW, you mentioned the Athearn Railboxes, I thought I read that they were incorrect anyway, incorrect roof IIRC. If so, Athearns Railbox should be discounted if folks are looking to include "correct" cars in the discussion. Hey back in the day those Athearn "Railbox" cars were made in dozens and dozens of road names. Anyone in the hobby for the last 20 years should have fleets of them at good prices. They are nice cars even if not perfect. Personally I find 50 foot boxcars not worth the effort to super detail or pay for same. Grain cars maybe. But not a box car. I have had thoughts about selling off my old trusty Athearn 50' "Railbox" boxcars but,many are Bev/Bel Athearn in IPD schemes and I would kinda hate to sell 'em. I might sort though the cars and separate the sheep from the goats and sell the non keepers. I ready like the newer RTR cars. |
|
|
|
Post by curtmc on Aug 6, 2012 18:03:09 GMT -8
Waitaminute... Curt, did you actually just say this? Because of poor sales, Atlas did multiple runs of it? Are you serious? That's got to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen from you, Curt. Why in the world would Atlas or any manufacturer continue to throw good money after bad? Let me explain it to you Paul... To do a car type most of the money is in the development and tooling. The first few runs are priced to make up that initial "investment" in the car in just a couple of runs. If sales are less than expected it takes more runs to break even. Future reruns cost less to do (unless the tooling is worn out) and are more profitable BUT sales tend to drop with each rerun of a particular car type (that info straight from Athearn, Atlas, and multiple hobby dealers). So when a new car doesn't sell well it takes more runs to pay off the initial "investment" in the project... If you see a rerun of a product right after the first run sells out immediately and many are searching for the item, then that is a demand caused rerun. But if you see a rerun while cars of that type from prior run 1-2 years ago are still filling bargain bins in hobby shops and in stock at distributors, that's a necessary production number (to break even) rerun... And when you see reruns of past products (done many years ago) instead of new products, that's an economics based rerun (as reruns of past products have higher percentage of profits and thus can be used by manufacturers to make it through tough economic times)... |
|
|
|
Post by fr8kar on Aug 7, 2012 5:49:22 GMT -8
Great post, mlehman. I couldn't agree more, especially that last paragraph. Ok... I'll play your game... since I didn't get my Athearn SDP45 (SD45M), I'll just build some myself If you build it, then it isn't a game, it's a hobby. I hate over-generalizations, so I'll preface the following comments by making it clear that I think it's rare that any of us fall exclusively in either category... Thanks to the explosion of RTR items in the last couple of decades, there are two general worldviews when discussing what's available from manufacturers. There are the model railroaders and there are the collectors. Model railroaders usually have or aspire to a layout. They are looking for overall effect in making their choices as consumers in order to build a model of an operating transportation system. Good modeling is important to them, whether they buy it RTR or build it themselves. They realize there are always compromises in any model, but they also realize how unrealistic it is to expect every single item they have to be a 100%, pull-out-all-the-stops, bleeding edge, state of the art exact replica of the prototype, whether it's a loco, a car, a structure, track, etc.... The collector often but not always marks the attributes of a few, well-chosen items as of over-arching importance to them. They can be hyper-critical about the latest loco release, but not really care about a whole range of other aspects of the hobby. There are only so many minutes in the day, so to most productively use them, it's best to spend a lot of that time letting others know how disappointed you are in what's available to consume... Because they will not build it themselves, have no intention of doing so, and feel that that getting exactly what they want should be so blindingly obvious to everyone that it is the most important need in the market right now. If a manufacturer fails to fulfill their needs in every way possible -- and even in some ways that are impossible -- then a barrage of criticism is likely to make it clear to everyone how their failure to satisfy you will result in imminent failure of that vendor. Except that rarely happens, perhaps even more rarely than one of these collectors actually building something themselves that is up to the standards that they stubbornly hold others to. Because that would be -- GASP! -- model railroading, not collecting. Don't get me wrong. I like great models and shake my head at some things that just don't make sense, like Bachmann investing in updating a F-unit, but still unable to put a nose light in one they plan to sell decorated for the Rio Grande. I won't buy one, got too many Genesis Fs already -- but if I did need some Rio Grande Fs, it's no big deal to put another light in one. Should Bachmann bother with this model because I'm not getting ready to buy some? That's Bachmann's problem, not mine, but I'm not so self-deceived that I imagine my comments on the matter should matter. The market will sort it out, which it seems to do. If the vendors were really so incompetent, inaccurate, uncaring, ignorant of customer needs, etc, etc, most of them wouldn't be here now after years of withering criticism from certain quarters. But they are, suggesting that the market has made decisions that suit most consumers. Makes me wonder, though, if rather than the trashed economy or problems with manufacturing in China being at the root of industry malaise, maybe it's just in a funk because too many model railroaders read and believed the hyper-critical collector's comments that there was nothing worth buying anyway? Could we, as a hobby, exist if the only models released were those that somehow suddenly start pleasing the usual suspects? Most likely not, as the inevitable result of pushing standards to extremes is higher prices. That seems pretty unpopular by itself around here. But then you have those who combine demands for exceptional quality with demands for lower prices and somehow we have just entered the Twilight Zone...where the normal laws of economics are suspended in order to satisfy collectors...probably NOT! |
|
|
|
Post by antoniofp45 on Aug 7, 2012 7:12:45 GMT -8
Any word on River Point Station's New Haven PS streamlined passenger cars? From my understanding, they will be detailed and metalized (plated).
I know it's been over a year since I said I was going to assemble and metalize a group of E&B Valley NH kits that I have, but I'm still backlogged with the Walthers and Rivarossi I started on.
If they're produced, I hope to purchase a coach and a combine.
|
|
|
|
Post by fr8kar on Aug 7, 2012 7:50:48 GMT -8
Curt, I still need a ER Souther waffle in the original paint scheme but I haven't seen any available - yes, I haven't overturned every stone but I'll have to keep my eye open at the next T show. Pretty much any I do see are $30/31 so I'd love to find one for $10 like you saw but I guess I wasn't in the right place at the right time, but I rarely am. The ER Southern Waffle is on my "Want" list which I'm slowly working my way through. BTW, you mentioned the Athearn Railboxes, I thought I read that they were incorrect anyway, incorrect roof IIRC. If so, Athearns Railbox should be discounted if folks are looking to include "correct" cars in the discussion. Hey back in the day those Athearn "Railbox" cars were made in dozens and dozens of roadnames. Anyone in the hobby for the last 20 years should have fleets of them at good prices. They are nice cars even if not perfect. Personally I find 50 foot boxcars not worth the effort to super detail or pay for same. Grain cars maybe. But not a box car. I may be an exception to the rule, but I never got into anything other than grain hoppers until the past couple years. So, even though I've been a rivet-measuring prototype modeler for the past two decades, I never did amass a fleet of boxcars or tank cars or gondolas or any of the other things I am interested in now. My newfound interest in these cars dovetails nicely with releases from Atlas, Athearn and Exactrail, among others. And since I lift pins and tie handbrakes for a living, I am interested in these details and appreciate when they are applied. When they are wrong or missing, I enjoy making them right. This is an echo of a point mlehman made, but it's worth repeating: to demand prices be held down while the variety, specificity and detail level be raised is ridiculous. It's one or the other. With few exceptions, most of the Atlas forum faithful who demand more for less are grown-ups (or must be by now after all these years) and despite the flailing economy still have some discretionary income to spend on their hobbies. These demands read as childish at worst and unrealistic at best. Sure, who doesn't want a state-of-the-art model of a specific hopper used only by XY&Z RR with all the detail parts applied, exquisite paint and opaque lettering packaged ready to run, but for the same price as the non-prototype amalgam of a triple hopper tooled in the sixties and sold as a shake the box kit in the eighties? I want to work a daylight switcher job with weekends off and make enough money to drive a Ferrari to work. It ain't gonna happen. It's not that I'm glad to pay $30 to $50 per piece of rolling stock. Sure, it would be nice if they were cheaper. After reading the Rapido blog post mentioned in another thread, it looks like I'm getting a heck of a deal even at these prices. Still, I buy this stuff because these boxcars and tank cars and gondolas are worth it to me. I may not get a dozen of these and ten of those, but I sure do enjoy the ones I get. I don't think it's unreasonable for the company that made these products to make a profit, either, especially when those profits lead to more product. To be perfectly honest, I just hope my favorite manufacturers are able to survive this economy and live to flourish another day. |
|
|
|
Post by calzephyr on Aug 7, 2012 8:29:44 GMT -8
Any word on River Point Station's New Haven PS streamlined passenger cars? From my understanding, they will be detailed and metalized (plated). I know it's been over a year since I said I was going to assemble and metalize a group of E&B Valley NH kits that I have, but I'm still backlogged with the Walthers and Rivarossi I started on. If they're produced, I hope to purchase a coach and a combine. I hope they do bring those to market, but River Point Station has been advertising certain products for over five years with no date set for the steam locomotives. Their model trucks have been received very well and my thought is their lack of capital is probably the biggest factor in bringing items to market. My interest in the NH cars is to use with the BLI brass Hybrid Hudson I purchased a few years ago. Larry |
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cutler III on Aug 7, 2012 9:37:15 GMT -8
mlehman,
Wow. So let me see if I got this... A "model railroader" is someone who doesn't complain about models while a "collector" is someone who does complain about models. Thus anyone who complains is not a model railroader.
Next, you've said that collectors, who aren't model railroaders, have a hyper-interest in one area of the hobby and a lack of interest in other aspects of the hobby. Presumably, that means that to be considered to be a model railroader, one must therefore have knowledge and interest in every part of the hobby, from 1800's wood burners to SD70ACe's, from DCC to scenery, from Union Pacific to Maine 2-footers.
Then you posit the idea that only collectors with so much non-modeling time on their hands spend time in online forums implying that model railroaders don't post online because they are presumably spending their time making models instead. Logically, the extension from that is that anyone who has hundreds of posts online (or perhaps any) is not a model railroader.
After that, you express the idea that the global economic situation and China's troubles aren't really affecting the hobby at all but critical collectors posting online opinions are.
Lastly, you posted that the hobby would die if manufacturers made models just for collectors.
So to sum up, "model railroaders" don't complain about models, know everything about the hobby, and don't post on internet forums, lists or groups because they are too busy making models. "Collectors", OTOH, is anyone who complains about models, are focused on only certain parts of the hobby, and post to online forums, lists and/or groups because they have the time since they don't do any model building. And because these online comments are scaring away customers & driving up prices, these "collectors" are killing the hobby. Am I correct?
Curt,
So, according to your logic, the cars with the most production runs are the worst selling cars Atlas makes and the ones with the lowest production runs sold the best? And that to "break even" on a bad selling item, Atlas makes more and more of these bad selling items to put them into a bigger hole financially so they can dig out of it? Huh?
Why wouldn't they stop making a model that doesn't sell, and instead make more of the models that do sell? Doesn't that make more sense? No business keeps making poor selling items. It makes no sense, Curt. None what-so-ever.
Larry,
Lack of capital is not the real issue with River Point Station. Ron's real business was working with NASA making test stands for instruments from the Mercury program to the Space Shuttles (it was his father's business first). He told me that he & his brother sold a patent to Mitre involving fiber optics for enough capital to do whatever he wants to do. Ron's real problem is that he's a stickler for details and wants to get everything perfect, plus the production problems in China that's giving him headaches. I've seen the test shots, I've been to Ron's engineering office. I have every confidence that he will bring these to market. But it depends on China and Ron's ability to engineer the cars to his exacting standards, and that just takes time.
|
|
|
|
Post by calzephyr on Aug 7, 2012 12:07:07 GMT -8
mlehman, Wow. So let me see if I got this... A "model railroader" is someone who doesn't complain about models while a "collector" is someone who does complain about models. Thus anyone who complains is not a model railroader. Next, you've said that collectors, who aren't model railroaders, have a hyper-interest in one area of the hobby and a lack of interest in other aspects of the hobby. Presumably, that means that to be considered to be a model railroader, one must therefore have knowledge and interest in every part of the hobby, from 1800's wood burners to SD70ACe's, from DCC to scenery, from Union Pacific to Maine 2-footers. Then you posit the idea that only collectors with so much non-modeling time on their hands spend time in online forums implying that model railroaders don't post online because they are presumably spending their time making models instead. Logically, the extension from that is that anyone who has hundreds of posts online (or perhaps any) is not a model railroader. After that, you express the idea that the global economic situation and China's troubles aren't really affecting the hobby at all but critical collectors posting online opinions are. Lastly, you posted that the hobby would die if manufacturers made models just for collectors. So to sum up, "model railroaders" don't complain about models, know everything about the hobby, and don't post on internet forums, lists or groups because they are too busy making models. "Collectors", OTOH, is anyone who complains about models, are focused on only certain parts of the hobby, and post to online forums, lists and/or groups because they have the time since they don't do any model building. And because these online comments are scaring away customers & driving up prices, these "collectors" are killing the hobby. Am I correct? Curt, So, according to your logic, the cars with the most production runs are the worst selling cars Atlas makes and the ones with the lowest production runs sold the best? And that to "break even" on a bad selling item, Atlas makes more and more of these bad selling items to put them into a bigger hole financially so they can dig out of it? Huh? Why wouldn't they stop making a model that doesn't sell, and instead make more of the models that do sell? Doesn't that make more sense? No business keeps making poor selling items. It makes no sense, Curt. None what-so-ever. Larry, Lack of capital is not the real issue with River Point Station. Ron's real business was working with NASA making test stands for instruments from the Mercury program to the Space Shuttles (it was his father's business first). He told me that he & his brother sold a patent to Mitre involving fiber optics for enough capital to do whatever he wants to do. Ron's real problem is that he's a stickler for details and wants to get everything perfect, plus the production problems in China that's giving him headaches. I've seen the test shots, I've been to Ron's engineering office. I have every confidence that he will bring these to market. But it depends on China and Ron's ability to engineer the cars to his exacting standards, and that just takes time. Paul Thanks. That is good news that capital is not the problem. I talked to them on email about the Santa Fe models and hope they can still get them to the market. Since it had been advertised for five years, I was giving up hope, but this information gives me new hope. Larry |
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Aug 7, 2012 12:08:28 GMT -8
mlehman, Wow. So let me see if I got this... A "model railroader" is someone who doesn't complain about models while a "collector" is someone who does complain about models. Thus anyone who complains is not a model railroader. SNIP I think you missed my caveat to not overgeneralize. I set up this black-and-white dichotomy to make a point, not to suggest that we all fit neatly into either category. Nah, I think you missed the point, which was not to stereotype people, but to make us think about where some of the discussion that comes up again and again doesn't make a heck of a lot of sense. Except for that very last sentence... I've got no problem with complaining about things that are wrong. I want to know. I model a prototype or two and want to know where compromises are being made -- or just sloppy design work. I can make my choice. On the other hand, some of the extremes of what in some folks minds is just the day-to-day way they approach the hobby makes me wonder why they bother. I sure as heck wouldn't keep buying or not-buying stuff that made me so unhappy. Maybe switch hobbies. Or maybe their hobby really is just criticism of the work of others? Now, I've heard that the best way to make a small fortune in model railroading is to start with a big one. Me, I'm not all that enamored of much of what passes for legitimate capitalism, but I can sure understand why someone might take a look at investing in building something for the model railroad market and then just say, Nah, why bother? Who wants to listen to it. I think atsfan probably summed things up better than I did in my obviously grating style. Life's a compromise. And there's no free lunch. So pick your poison, it's either incredibly expensive models or we just get used to hitting the ignore button when you see a post by certain ranting curmudgeons because they engaging in their only pleasure by drumming up biz for the antacid industry. Last, I will note one way I distinguish between "model railroaders" and "collectors" is when the pics go up - or not, as the case may be. Some folks have layouts and some people have box collections. I use my layout to hide my box collection, so I'll own up to being a bit of a collector. All I want to know is if any of those who may be in the hardcore collector crowd will own up to having a layout to hide their boxes under... ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Brakie on Aug 7, 2012 12:21:15 GMT -8
On the other hand, some of the extremes of what in some folks minds is just the day-to-day way they approach the hobby makes me wonder why they bother. I sure as heck wouldn't keep buying or not-buying stuff that made me so unhappy. Maybe switch hobbies.
------------------------------
Hear! Hear!
There are three brands I have stop buying.
|
|
|
|
Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 7, 2012 13:11:47 GMT -8
Last, I will note one way I distinguish between "model railroaders" and "collectors" is when the pics go up - or not, as the case may be. Some folks have layouts and some people have box collections. I use my layout to hide my box collection, so I'll own up to being a bit of a collector. All I want to know is if any of those who may be in the hardcore collector crowd will own up to having a layout to hide their boxes under... ;D The boxes would also be on top of the layout, in front of the layout......... Ed |
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Aug 7, 2012 13:44:08 GMT -8
The boxes would also be on top of the layout, in front of the layout......... Ed Well, that would explain the lacks of pics  That would look just like a well-stocked hobby shop, assiduously and critically collected with only the finest of vintages on display. Heck, I just wanna see some trains run...  |
|
|
|
Post by jimnorton on Aug 7, 2012 14:17:43 GMT -8
The best overall and most affordable kit ever, IMHO, is/was the MDC 50' FMC boxcar. I wish somebody would dust off the molds and reintroduce these kits. A line of accurate patched and repatched paint schemes would be great. Should be a bargin in today's market as the kit had only 12 or so parts!
I just can't go for a $35.00 freight car. Its going to be interesting to see how much longer the industry can put these products out? All I want as a consumer is accurate paint schemes and thin stirrups.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2012 16:44:29 GMT -8
Last, I will note one way I distinguish between "model railroaders" and "collectors" is when the pics go up - or not, as the case may be. Some folks have layouts and some people have box collections. I use my layout to hide my box collection, so I'll own up to being a bit of a collector. All I want to know is if any of those who may be in the hardcore collector crowd will own up to having a layout to hide their boxes under... ;D Wow, what a stinky pile of arrogant, pompous horse manure. NEWSFLASH...... There are many people that don't have layouts for whatever reason, but still enjoy of the hobby of building contest winning models. Look at a Prototype Modelers meet. You have people that spend YEARS researching and copying the prototype down to the rust streaks. Under YOUR terminology, these people are "collectors" and not "model railroaders"......Their work is art.....that rolls and has a motor!.....Yet, you'd slam them as "collectors" and not model railroaders?  ? Look up Cannon & Co.'s site and click on Elizabeth Allen's Southern Pacific EMD SDP45 model.....Layout or not, its art work and MODEL RAILROADING Under YOUR definitions.....a guy like "Running Bear" on the old Atlas, that delighted in showing the world his latest dumpster dive piece of rolling stock on a layout taken from the same dumpster is a "model railroader". Whereas, a person displaying their work at a PM meet that doesn't have a layout is NOT a "model railroader".....Sorry, the fish ain't biting on that one. I think you need to refine your "definitions". NEWSFLASH NUMBER TWO.... WE ALL NEED EACH OTHER!!!!! The guy that buys his stuff RTR is as important as the guy that buys kits. This hobby isn't big enough to throw up divisions. Sure some people have so much talent its amazing. Then you have others that have zero. On the Sunday Photo thread, on the Atlas forum, Running Bear posted a photo of his latest pile of scrap. Then Mellow Mike, a guy I feel has a ton of talent, Gong Showed the "modeling effort". Mellow Mike got a time out, but I think he spoke for a LOT of people as evidenced on the final days, when civility went out the door and anything went. But even dumpster diver Running Bear has a place in the hobby of model railroading. He may be buying or picking up the stuff most people wouldn't want, but tries to do something. In model trains there are true collectors. They mostly purchase brass models though and condition of the model, foam, box and any documents is all part of their hobby. I'm sure there are a few people that now collect the high end stuff like Genesis, Rapido, Atlas, Intermountain, etc. But most people that do buy plastic models have a layout of some sort, or have plans of building their dream layout. Just because a person wants models to be correct, in details, paint and dimensions isn't the root of all evil in this hobby. Nor is the guy that thinks a shake a box Athearn kit is high end stuff. At my LHS there are elderly customers that pay the store to do everything for them. They have the income, but don't have the body anymore to do the work. To me they are still "model railroaders" because they love the hobby. The hobby is about PERSONAL ENJOYMENT. YOU decide what your going to put into it and YOU decide whether its making you happy. |
|
|
|
Post by mlehman on Aug 7, 2012 17:15:08 GMT -8
Jim, I appreciate your thoughts. My composition was intended to make people think about the context of criticism some, rather than to simply focus on what may just be one person's highly subjective opinion. And I did admit I have a lot of collector in me, too, just like most of us.  I certainly didn't intend to exclude anyone from the wide spectrum of modelers out there. You've covered most, but forgot those old narrowgaugers with one running brass loco (unpainted), a combine, caboose, and boxcar built and lettered, plus the stack of wood kits, and a magnificent Plywood Pacific with the finest handlaid track you've ever set eyes on. My point was that some of the most over-the-top whining about why a certain manufacturer didn't satisfy a certain personal need -- to be purchased RTR, NOT merely to be given the raw material to build it themselves -- then made it available at a date as scheduled and announced a year in advance, on-time, and for a good $15 less than everyone else producing a similar model in the market, with absolutely no packaging failures and not a stray handrail in any of the boxes....whew, wore me out just thinking of all the things I could gripe about... But I won't. I am over-the-top grateful to the dedicated people who invest their time, equity, and sweat into bringing us what we know are imperfect, but still stunning models that are available -- however briefly -- to the extent of my shrunken-wallet's capacity. I'm also very grateful that I or anyone else can build something if I can't buy it. And the older I get, the better that satisfaction is, despite failing eyesight, shaking hands, and having to occasionally read the whimperings of some who seems more miserable than some inmates do about where they find themselves in life. Thanks for your very important reminder that it really is about the fun of model railroading -- done however someone may feel is important to accomplish in their own personal way. I'll take a very mixed bag of 1,000 of those for RR buddies any day, versus one or two perpetually unhappy consumers. |
|
|
|
Post by antoniofp45 on Aug 7, 2012 17:24:12 GMT -8
Quick Sidebar:Jim, I read your above response and googled the lady's name that you mentioned (Elizabeth Allen) and found this Pbase photo: www.pbase.com/espeef5/image/135910238Wow! Put that locomotive out in natural sunlight on piece of ballasted HO track, photograph it, and it will fool people into thinking that's a hulking prototype.
|
|
|
|
Post by riogrande on Aug 7, 2012 17:46:22 GMT -8
The best overall and most affordable kit ever, IMHO, is/was the MDC 50' FMC boxcar. I wish somebody would dust off the molds and reintroduce these kits. A line of accurate patched and repatched paint schemes would be great. Should be a bargin in today's market as the kit had only 12 or so parts! Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Athearn released that model in RTR form with improved stirrups? |
|
|
|
Post by drolsen on Aug 7, 2012 19:42:28 GMT -8
Correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't Athearn released that model in RTR form with improved stirrups? Athearn's "standard" FMC 5347 with the single sliding door is a new model - they didn't reuse the original MDC FMC 5347. However, they did reissue the other MDC FMC box cars (one with double doors and one with plug door, if I recall correctly), as well as the FMC "ABOX" combo door car. They added separate grab irons, end ladders, and improved stirrups to those former MDC models. Dave |
|
