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Post by atsfan on Oct 14, 2015 16:42:32 GMT -8
Yes the prototype steam era is long gone BUT there are so many layouts in the transition era. Besides there's still a few real steam locos running around on excursions. So no good reason modelers can't have one running on their modern era layout... True, but it helps to have an open mind to grok such things. Of course, statements like the one you responded to do demonstrate there is a certain amount of ignorance about the contemporary influence of steam. Never mind the tens of thousands of member of hundreds of RR historical societies (virtually all of which have some steam flowing in their veins), ops like C&TS and Cass, and BTW tens of thousands of non-contemporary model railroaders and nearly every narrowgauger. Yeah, there's a limited audience for steam alright. Well since you are calling me ignorant I will respond. The market for Canadian steam engine not running for 60 years is limited. It is not in the tens of thousands. To say that members of railroad historical society is the target market is absurd. Yes the RF&P members are lining up to purchase them? No. So is Cass railroad riders not the buyers. You are narrow guage, are you buying them? Of course Steam engines trackside are popular. I like them. That doesnt mean I am the target market either.
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Post by bdhicks on Oct 14, 2015 18:02:16 GMT -8
Royal Hudson 2860 made it into the US a few times in the '70s and non-Royal (republican?) Hudson 2816 sat in Steamtown for a while before being restored to service in the early 2000s, at which time it occasionally made it down to the US. Both have ran within the last 5 years, but as I understand it 2860 is currently out of service getting work done for re-certification and 2816 is in storage due to the whims of CP management.
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 14, 2015 19:13:10 GMT -8
Steam has been gone for 60 years mostly. Two generations of people. Rapido is selling these to a limited audience. It will be interesting to see if in 2018 they are successfully making 2 a year still. I wonder if they have partnered with a company in Asia, as the work needed to make all of these is not trivial. Besides the apparent desire of atsfan to "stimulate lively discussion" with this particular post, I used to take the exact same attitude and probably even made similar posts at some point. I believe the phrase I used was "should be left to the history books". However, after all the years of playing with trains, buying/selling/trading models, and running all kinds of different motive power from all the different eras, 1940's up to today, when I sat down and thought about it, at the end of the day, it is the steam engines that have been the most memorable models for me. Anybody can go get a brace of diesels, even Overland Models diesels, and put them on a long freight, and get great performance in the model world. They're colorful; they look and run fantastically well--there's a lot to love about the diesel era and even the brass diesels or the Genesis ones. But--they just don't achieve the same thing for me that steam models do. I get more pleasure out of running an inexpensive Bachmann 2-8-0 than any diesel model I've ever operated--and the brass steam models--well the good ones take the hobby to a whole new level that has to be seen to be appreciated (and it still took me some years to appreciate it). I was not there and cannot remember the steam era. The only steam I've ever known has been the ex-CP Pacific pulling trains at Steamtown, the rather low speed Strasburg Railroad, Tweetsie Railroad, the New Hope & Ivyland Railway, and Grand Canyon Railway (rode in the air conditioned dome car in summer behind the magnificently rebuilt 4960). I've never seen any steam engine really open up and stretch its legs. When today's Dash 9's and ACe's are replaced by newer diesel models on the layouts of tomorrow, I bet there will still be steam power. It's something about the mechanical fascination with all the moving parts and the way a steam engine seems to be "alive". There will always be some who are just utterly fascinated with them. John
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Post by Donnell Wells on Oct 14, 2015 19:28:06 GMT -8
True, but it helps to have an open mind to grok such things. Of course, statements like the one you responded to do demonstrate there is a certain amount of ignorance about the contemporary influence of steam. Never mind the tens of thousands of member of hundreds of RR historical societies (virtually all of which have some steam flowing in their veins), ops like C&TS and Cass, and BTW tens of thousands of non-contemporary model railroaders and nearly every narrowgauger. Yeah, there's a limited audience for steam alright. Well since you are calling me ignorant I will respond. The market for Canadian steam engine not running for 60 years is limited. It is not in the tens of thousands. To say that members of railroad historical society is the target market is absurd. Yes the RF&P members are lining up to purchase them? No. So is Cass railroad riders not the buyers. You are narrow guage, are you buying them? Of course Steam engines trackside are popular. I like them. That doesnt mean I am the target market either. Atsfan, speaking as a modeler, and in no official capacity, everything you've said is pure conjecture. You spout out statements as if they were fact, but provide no data to back your claims. How do you know who Rapido's target market is? Did you ask them? Where's your research? If steam was not as popular as you say, manufacturers would have stopped making it a long time ago.
Donnell
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Oct 14, 2015 19:52:15 GMT -8
atsfan, Rapido has mentioned their Chinese factory many times in their newsletters and videos. Rapido even makes other manufacturer's trains.
And yes, the FL9 wasn't $500 ea., but one really needs two FL9's to run a proper NH train. That's $500, even without sound.
The funny thing is that FL9's were always poo-poohed because only one railroad ordered them new, only 60 were made, and they were geographically limited to the Northeast. And yet, the Rapido FL9 has been wildly popular. Why? Because the FL9 is an iconic (literally!) loco for NH fans. It was used in their advertising since they arrived on the property, and is even used as a logo for the NHRHTA. If you're a NH fan and you model the 1956-1968 era, then you *need* FL9's. And since NH fans are both plentiful and have money to spend, the limited area and numbers of the FL9 were overcome by the fanatic-like interest in the region they roamed.
I think Canadian steam has that same kind of pull for Canadians and Canadian modelers. I think Rapido will do well with the Royal Hudson. I dunno about the 4-6-0's and 2-8-0 (because big steamers sell), but the others ought to do okay.
Oh, and one other thing: Rapido doesn't need tens of thousands of modelers to buy their steam locos. Perhaps as many as 5000, or as little as 3000, to make the run profitable. They aren't making Varney Docksiders by the ton, here.
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leikec
Junior Member
Posts: 95
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Post by leikec on Oct 14, 2015 19:59:42 GMT -8
If I survive long enough I will buy at least one of every single model announced.
Oh Canada!
Jeff C
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Post by bdhicks on Oct 14, 2015 23:14:50 GMT -8
Decided to look up a few of these engines, and while I am often surprised by the amount of daylight visible underneath the boiler on prototype steam pictures, nothing could prepare me for the 4-4-4 Jubilee: www.rr-fallenflags.org/cp/cp-s3002jpa.jpg
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Post by Judge Doom on Oct 15, 2015 1:20:09 GMT -8
atsfan, I think Canadian steam has that same kind of pull for Canadians and Canadian modelers. I think Rapido will do well with the Royal Hudson. I dunno about the 4-6-0's and 2-8-0 (because big steamers sell), but the others ought to do okay. Oh, and one other thing: Rapido doesn't need tens of thousands of modelers to buy their steam locos. Perhaps as many as 5000, or as little as 3000, to make the run profitable. They aren't making Varney Docksiders by the ton, here. Oh, those CPR 4-6-0's will sell, rest assured. They were popular steamers and ran right to the end of steam, working branches, locals, yards, freight, passenger, mixed, even mainline freights doubleheaded as a helper and leading larger steam locos. To CPR steam fans, they were the SW1200RS or GP9 of steam. CPR 1057 in particular gained fame as an excursion survivor decades after steam died (part of the famed tripleheader of May 1st 1960 with another 4-6-0 815, and ancient 4-4-0 136, and many more after that), and survives today on a small tourist RR. And a Royal Hudson or D10 (4-6-0) in plastic would outsell an early UP E2 easily.
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Post by jonklein611 on Oct 15, 2015 2:38:22 GMT -8
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Post by stevewagner on Oct 15, 2015 5:00:34 GMT -8
The only time I've been able to ride in a train pulled by a steam locomotive at track speed on a well maintained main line was from the Austrian border at Ceske Velenice to Prague in Czechoslovakia in the summer of 1966, when I was twenty years old. The loco was a beautiful semi-streamlined one, I think a 4-8-2. I did get a cinder in my eye while looking through an open window or door, but it came out readily. The moment I got off the train I noticed that coal was in widespread use even in the summer; Prague is surrounded by hills, which intensified the pollution.
(The return trip to Vienna was on an East German streamlined diesel (?) powered set that had come from Berlin; judging from the languages on the sign warning passengers not to stick their heads out the window, it had formerly (before the Second World War, I think) been used between Germany and Denmark. The train I rode a month later in Hungary from Budapest to Szeged was pulled by a diesel-electric that looked something one of the units that powered the first Super Chief in the 1930's, but with no streamlining at all and in plain black paint.)
Paul, wasn't at least most of the Canadian Pacific's route across Maine between Quebec and New Brunswick the railway's own International of Maine Division, not just trackage rights on another railroad?
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 15, 2015 5:14:48 GMT -8
Those neat little 4-6-0's and 2-8-0's will sell much better than other manufacturers' generic offerings.
At this point in life, I'd rather buy a correct, really well detailed model of a steam engine, even if it's not Western Pacific, than a generic version with crass heavy details that just looks like a toy. I'm not tied to the roadname so much as I want a nice model that looks real.
John
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Post by bnsf971 on Oct 15, 2015 5:17:17 GMT -8
I guess I shouldn't be surprised at some of the negative people pointing at the announcement of a complete series of extremely high-end steam locomotives as further proof the hobby is dieing. Wow. Catering to the last remaining model railroaders with these engines...
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cvsne
New Member
Posts: 28
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Post by cvsne on Oct 15, 2015 5:25:42 GMT -8
As a CV modeler I'm certainly interested in some of these. But what I'd REALLY like to see would be Central Vermont versions of the N-class 2-8-0s and the Ten Wheelers. Now THAT would be an exciting announcement. Marty
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Post by jaygee on Oct 15, 2015 6:38:01 GMT -8
No interest here...I'm a Dieselover in the extreme. Very few steams gonna grab my wallet, and none of those are Canadian. I pull my Canadian with FPs, Geeps, or the occasional CLC Trainmonster. Sorry Jason !
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Post by emd16645 on Oct 15, 2015 6:49:26 GMT -8
Paul, wasn't at least most of the Canadian Pacific's route across Maine between Quebec and New Brunswick the railway's own International of Maine Division, not just trackage rights on another railroad? Canadian Pacific built and operated from the Quebec border to Mattawamkeag, via Jackman, Greenville, and Brownville Junction. From Mattawamkeag east to the border at Vanceboro the tracks were owned by the Maine Central, which CP operated over under some sort of agreement. Some time in the 70s, CP purchased the trackage east of Mattawamkeag.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Oct 15, 2015 6:52:42 GMT -8
Judge, Many people say that small steamers will sell, but how true is that? Manufacturers keep cranking out the biggest locos they can find, rather than a host of smaller steamers that were far more numerous. For example, the NH's largest passenger steamer, the I-5 4-6-4 of which they only had 10, has had 5 different models made of it: NJ/Custom Brass, W&R, Precision Scale, BLI All-Brass and two runs of BLI Hybrid Brass. Meanwhile, the NH's most numerous loco with 195 examples made was the K-1-b 2-6-0 (much like the CN/CP 4-6-0, they did everything: switching, locals, peddlars, small to medium freights, MoW, etc.). Exactly zero K-1-b's have been manufactured. Only one model of the updated 2-6-0, the K-1-d (84 prototype examples), was sold by NERS some 30 years ago. My point is just because a loco prototype was numerous doesn't mean that it's going to be popular.
Steve, Mattawamkeag and West was the CP's. Mattawamkeag and East to the Canadian line was MEC...originally. Eventually, MEC did sell the line to CP, who later then sold off the entire route.
My ex-next door neighbor used to be a towerman at Mattawamkeag, and he told me how that the MEC line was "dark territory". As far as the CP was concerned, the Westbound "Atlantic Limited" left Vanceboro and entered a black hole until it rang the bell at the Mattawamkeag tower. This would cause concern when the snow was extremely bad (which Maine is famous for) because if the Limited ever derailed East of Mattawamkeag, no one would know about it for many hours. Being a night train through Maine, there was at the time, no source of artificial light from the Canadian border to Mattawamkeag. There was nothing out there then, and being lightless gave new meaning to the term, "dark territory".
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Post by nightmare0331 on Oct 15, 2015 7:37:21 GMT -8
This is awesome news. I personally don't model steam or Canadian stuff, but it's always neat to see new models come out and I've been known to impulse buy things that really don't fit that target. It's always amusing seeing new announcements with the winefest that usually follows. It usually encompasses 'what were they thinking?' 'well, MY wallet is safe <gruff>' 'and still we have no Genesis quality SD40-2 (or whatever random model that's their pet obsession of the day)' because they assume that the majority of modelers think like them. Jason and Company...filling the needs of Canadian (and some US) modelers after having heard time and time again from various places 'eh...Canadian stuff doesn't sell...' Enjoy! Kelley. www.dufordmodelworks.com
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 15, 2015 7:49:40 GMT -8
Bowser knows that Canadian stuff sells and has said they are explicitly targeting more Canadian models because they outsell "American" models, period.
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Post by riogrande on Oct 15, 2015 8:06:10 GMT -8
Judge, Many people say that small steamers will sell, but how true is that? Manufacturers keep cranking out the biggest locos they can find, rather than a host of smaller steamers that were far more numerous. <snip> My point is just because a loco prototype was numerous doesn't mean that it's going to be popular. More than likely, the list that has been published will be subject to sales. If the first batch of 4-6-4's sell well, the 4-6-0's will be scheduled, and so on and so forth. If each years runs sell well, Rapido will likely go down the announced list until completion. If sales fall off enough at some point, they may have to revise or cut it short. Thats pretty much how it goes so folks can talk about this till the cows come home, but the proof will be in the production and sales. I, for one, wish them all the success and hope they are able to produce everything planned. Cheers.
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Post by nightmare0331 on Oct 15, 2015 8:19:32 GMT -8
Bowser knows that Canadian stuff sells and has said they are explicitly targeting more Canadian models because they outsell "American" models, period. Right. Lee and I had a discussion about that a while back. I'm happy because the GMD SD40-2 has alot of applications including some ICE units. However, there is still this ... old school...mentality that Canadian stuff doesn't sell (or sell well) with some. Enjoy! Kelley. www.dufordmodelworks.com
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Post by mlehman on Oct 15, 2015 9:21:00 GMT -8
For the most part, from what I've seen, very few Canadians spend their time obsessing about "death of the hobby" scenarios when someone isn't preparing to build something they want. Instead, the Canadians *GASP* spend that time actually modeling. Having spent some time on foreign forums, the entire "hobby mortality" thing is so far from reality that it isn't even mentioned IME. They just get on with doing it, with everything from simply unboxing and watching it go on RTR track to scratchbuilding. Who has time for handwringing when you're having fun? I suspect, based on the relative lack of visual evidence of their doing much in the way of actual modeling, many who just can't let go of that theme and regularly haul out that poor pony to flog it again and again that it's just easier to pointlessly pontificate than to model... Prisoners of their own toxic brew, I guess. I hate to say "just making excuses" for nothing much to show, but that could also be a factor. Whether or not there's RTR or they have to resort to modding or building something, people who are serious modelers find a way to make it work for them. The whole "My dreams are the victim of someone else's lack of effort" thing is pretty worn out. Jim, Re the potential for adjustments in the schedule is certainly there, but from what I've seen for the most part, what Rapido announces eventually gets done. There are a few projects like the LRC that see significant delays, but even then it usually doesn't just get dropped. This is a big project over a long term, so things can change, but I suspect they'll stay on track, even if a few of them run late for one reason or another.
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Post by carrman on Oct 15, 2015 9:32:59 GMT -8
I for one don't think the hobby is dying by a long shot. But by the same token, don't expect everyone to turn cartwheels because Canadian tea kettles are coming. I hope they sell well for Jason, but to date, Rapido has yet to offer anything I can use.
Dave
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Post by atsfan on Oct 15, 2015 12:13:29 GMT -8
Bowser knows that Canadian stuff sells and has said they are explicitly targeting more Canadian models because they outsell "American" models, period. What outsells what? HO Scale Canadian train models outsell American Train Models? Where is that coming from?
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Post by atsfan on Oct 15, 2015 12:17:38 GMT -8
For the most part, from what I've seen, very few Canadians spend their time obsessing about "death of the hobby" scenarios when someone isn't preparing to build something they want. Instead, the Canadians *GASP* spend that time actually modeling. Having spent some time on foreign forums, the entire "hobby mortality" thing is so far from reality that it isn't even mentioned IME. They just get on with doing it, with everything from simply unboxing and watching it go on RTR track to scratchbuilding. Who has time for handwringing when you're having fun? I suspect, based on the relative lack of visual evidence of their doing much in the way of actual modeling, many who just can't let go of that theme and regularly haul out that poor pony to flog it again and again that it's just easier to pointlessly pontificate than to model... Prisoners of their own toxic brew, I guess. I hate to say "just making excuses" for nothing much to show, but that could also be a factor. Whether or not there's RTR or they have to resort to modding or building something, people who are serious modelers find a way to make it work for them. The whole "My dreams are the victim of someone else's lack of effort" thing is pretty worn out. Jim, Re the potential for adjustments in the schedule is certainly there, but from what I've seen for the most part, what Rapido announces eventually gets done. There are a few projects like the LRC that see significant delays, but even then it usually doesn't just get dropped. This is a big project over a long term, so things can change, but I suspect they'll stay on track, even if a few of them run late for one reason or another. Good to know you are the person who knows entirely what American versus non American modelers think and believe. Amazing that you own this knowledge. PS: Nobody or nowhere on this thread is it "the hobby is dying" so I don't know why you say it is. This sentence below makes zero sense and nobody has ever even hinted at this: "The whole "My dreams are the victim of someone else's lack of effort" thing is pretty worn out."
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Post by atsfan on Oct 15, 2015 12:18:29 GMT -8
I for one don't think the hobby is dying by a long shot. But by the same token, don't expect everyone to turn cartwheels because Canadian tea kettles are coming. I hope they sell well for Jason, but to date, Rapido has yet to offer anything I can use. Dave Nobody on this thread has said the hobby is dying. It gets re branded as that incorrectly.
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Post by atsfan on Oct 15, 2015 12:23:03 GMT -8
These don't say they own a factory. They work with a factory in China. And visit it. So does everyone else like Athearn and Atlas. I also don't see this factory as exclusive to Rapido. Maybe it is, but I don't see that written. MTH at one point said they OWN a factory in China and thus control their own fate. However, given their bizarre release schedules I wonder about that.....
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Post by Judge Doom on Oct 15, 2015 14:34:17 GMT -8
Bowser knows that Canadian stuff sells and has said they are explicitly targeting more Canadian models because they outsell "American" models, period. What outsells what? HO Scale Canadian train models outsell American Train Models? Where is that coming from? Bowser. Their Canadian C630M was their best selling model to date, according to them. And anyone who knows anything about Canadian modeling knows their Canadian SD40-2's will easily outsell the C630M's, in spades.
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Post by jonklein611 on Oct 15, 2015 14:50:39 GMT -8
These don't say they own a factory. They work with a factory in China. And visit it. So does everyone else like Athearn and Atlas. I also don't see this factory as exclusive to Rapido. Maybe it is, but I don't see that written. MTH at one point said they OWN a factory in China and thus control their own fate. However, given their bizarre release schedules I wonder about that..... Ah, good point. I do know they have dedicated staff (engineering included) at those factories. They may or may not "own" the factory, but they have staff doing work directly for them.
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Post by milgentrains on Oct 15, 2015 15:00:53 GMT -8
It would be neat for Jason to link up with the Strasberg RR people. A model of their #98 a 2-6-0 I think would sell well down here.
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Post by cnj3676 on Oct 15, 2015 15:40:26 GMT -8
CP G5s 1238, 1278 and 1286 powered a number of excursions operated in the northeast by Ross Rowland's High Iron Company beginning in 1966 before the NKP 759 was rebuilt in 1968. The locomotives developed an avid fan base in this area during the time they worked the HICO specials as they were fast, reliable and could haul a good sized train. I had the opportunity to ride behind each of the three G5s so there may be other excursionists like me who will be interested particularly if those specific engine numbers are offered. A model of the 1278 may be problematic as it received a number of modifications including an Elesco feedwater heater and smokebox mounted bell before beginning its excursion career as the Monadnock, Steamtown & Northern 127.
Good luck with the project, Jason. I'll be awaiting the 1238, 1278 and 1286 if and when you do them.
Thanks, Bob
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