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Post by bnsf971 on Nov 16, 2018 11:36:13 GMT -8
"We want model trains built in the USA. No more Chinese crap!" Manufacturer builds the best car they can in the USA, while keeping production costs at a level to let them sell at the same price as the Chinese-built models. "What a P.O.S.! It's junk! I'll never buy one of those!" Manufacturer goes out of business due to lack of sales. Other manufacturers take a look at what happened, and run screaming away from building model trains in the USA. "We need more trains made in the USA, instead of this Chinese crap!" Oh I get it, we should buy crudely tooled, foobie painted just just because its made in the US. Got it. Dave Dave, how many reasonably accurate, decently painted and detailed US built freight cars would you buy at $80 a copy when you can get the same car from China for $50? That is my point, my whole point, and nothing but my point. |
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Post by Artur on Nov 16, 2018 11:59:12 GMT -8
"We want model trains built in the USA. No more Chinese crap!" Manufacturer builds the best car they can in the USA, while keeping production costs at a level to let them sell at the same price as the Chinese-built models. "What a P.O.S.! It's junk! I'll never buy one of those!" Manufacturer goes out of business due to lack of sales. Other manufacturers take a look at what happened, and run screaming away from building model trains in the USA. "We need more trains made in the USA, instead of this Chinese crap!" Chinese crap? Ha ha that’s funny, go ahead here is your chance to buy Value Trains crap. |
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Post by fr8kar on Nov 16, 2018 13:34:59 GMT -8
"We want model trains built in the USA. No more Chinese crap!" Manufacturer builds the best car they can in the USA, while keeping production costs at a level to let them sell at the same price as the Chinese-built models. "What a P.O.S.! It's junk! I'll never buy one of those!" Manufacturer goes out of business due to lack of sales. Other manufacturers take a look at what happened, and run screaming away from building model trains in the USA. "We need more trains made in the USA, instead of this Chinese crap!" Accurail. |
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Post by simulatortrain on Nov 16, 2018 14:44:24 GMT -8
For what it is worth...Contrary to James' video from Trainfest, the wheels are metal. I'm assuming they are Kadee wheels.
Product differentiation is often key to the successful launch of a new product. While the UP Heritage schemes do give the VT car some advantage (as no other HO-scale manufacturer is *currently* offering them), is this a sustainable competitive advantage? I would venture to say no, because at any time Accurail, Athearn, Atlas, Bachmann, and Walthers could all release a similar product.
I'm not rooting for Value Trains to fail; I actually applaud VT for taking a risk that many us would not even consider, in trying to break their way into this industry. I do think they should adjust their pricing strategy to match what they are offering. VT jumped into a market selling an item similar to items that are already being sold at a better price point. A low-cost strategy would broaden their market share because it would appeal to more modelers, as we are always looking for "lower cost" options and less-expensive ways to fill out our freight car rosters.
DonnellThey're Kadee metal wheels, for some reason they blacken them. Where are you buying Kadee trucks for $6.50? The last pair I bought was $10 minus 10% club discount. Had to use them for the weight. |
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Post by wp8thsub on Nov 16, 2018 17:22:03 GMT -8
A few observations...  That appears to be a Kadee "modern" brakewheel. kadee.com/htmbord/page2025-2035-2045.htmThe trucks are Kadee's ACL prototype 70-ton trucks, good for ACL and successor roads on certain cars, and pretty much nothing else. Kadee does have trucks that would theoretically work on this thing, but they weren't selected. The quality of the tooling and casting work is as atrocious as anything I've seen offered commercially in HO. The grabs and crossover platform don't even have enough plastic to fill in the complete shape. That's in addition to the errors that have already been detailed elsewhere regarding the roof, sills, end corrugations, etc. The ink-jet style process Value Trains admits to using leaves an obvious pattern that looks just like a color print from an ink jet printer, with rows of horizontal lines showing where the printing equipment moves across the car. The manufacturer must assume the target customer not only doesn't care one bit about accuracy, but also doesn't care about the fantasy paint jobs having poor execution. I wonder how many of the toy/collector types will recoil at the miserable decorating after seeing this product up close. |
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Post by ambluco on Nov 16, 2018 19:00:30 GMT -8
11 pages of people explaining why they aren't buying any to other people who aren't buying any.
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Post by csxt8400 on Nov 16, 2018 19:17:35 GMT -8
I can honestly say I don't think I've ever seen any model this poorly executed since getting into the hobby. The ACL/SCL trucks put me over the top, that is some good comedy. I mean you have to try and mess things up this bad, right?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2018 21:33:42 GMT -8
Ten pages of complaining about a company's initial offering by a company named value trains, not fully scaled trains, or scale model replica model trains or, truescale trains, value trains. I think if the printing were better it would help the appeal greatly. Perhaps in time, the company will switch to pad printing. Obviously if they are starting with inkjet printing they don't have the capitol to do pad printing yet. Also if this company becomes successful, which i hope they do, this first offering with become a very hot collectors item. Gotta remember, these are made in the usa, all by one or two people. I think you were all expecting too much to begin with, maybe too much. Maybe some of you were expecting them to be repackaged cars with different paint scheme's from a current mfg. Similar to how cox was just athearn cars and locomotives ect. Time will tell. I hope valuetrains can live long and maybe prosper.
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Post by wp8thsub on Nov 16, 2018 22:11:01 GMT -8
I think you were all expecting too much to begin with, maybe too much. I had very low expectations. I think most of us did. My anticipation was for something along the lines of Atlas Trainman, Athearn Roundhouse, or Walthers Mainline. Maybe even a step below that, like Con-Cor. Even with those, there are useful cars. Walthers' ACF "Railbox" springs to mind, perhaps the Con-Cor Airslide hoppers, or even an RTR equivalent of the Scale Trains Evans 5100 boxcar - models that aren't necessarily awesome due to having few stand-alone details, but executed well enough they can fill a niche for the price. I feel no shame having cars like those on my layout, as I can't afford high-end products for every car. I'd be willing to support a new manufacturer bringing us something similar. |
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Post by Judge Doom on Nov 17, 2018 1:47:41 GMT -8
It was the box, the box got everyone's expectations up.  One thing I haven't seen brought up is the idea that the use of Kadee couplers, trucks, and brakewheels (while they might seem more expensive to us) might have been done more to keep their own tooling costs down: it might be cheaper in the short term to buy readily available parts made by someone else than for VT to spend the money on cutting extra tooling to cast their own trucks, couplers, wheelsets, etc and having to assemble them here (and chances are they'd have to do them all in plastic to keep costs and assembly down, as metal wheelsets would have to be cast of metal and pressed onto axles. Plastic couplers would still need to be assembled and have trip pins and springs added). Doing el-cheapo plastic wheelsets and couplers the end buyer would have to chuck and replace anyway might have been a non-starter idea for them. What the per-unit cost breakdown of each car is in terms of the cost of the couplers/trucks vs the cost of the body and paint/printing is unknown to us - it could very well be $8 of Kadee parts on a car that costs per-unit $8 to tool up, cast and paint. VT probably gets some sort of manufacturer bulk discount on buying from Kadee, rather than the regular store retail prices the rest of us pay. And on top of that, Kadee is "Made in the USA" so it all goes perfectly with their brand. It wouldn't make sense for VT to go through the trouble of making the car (body/underframe) in the US only to source the trucks & couplers from China - there goes their 100% Made in the USA marketing angle. But all of that is giving them a lot of credit, for an otherwise lack-luster tooling effort. "We want model trains built in the USA. No more Chinese crap!" Manufacturer builds the best car they can in the USA, while keeping production costs at a level to let them sell at the same price as the Chinese-built models. "What a P.O.S.! It's junk! I'll never buy one of those!" Manufacturer goes out of business due to lack of sales. Other manufacturers take a look at what happened, and run screaming away from building model trains in the USA. "We need more trains made in the USA, instead of this Chinese crap!" Accurail. And of course, often you'll get the usual when pitching Accurail to people: "It's not ready to run" "I don't have the time to make kits" "No metal couplers or wheels" "They don't make much modern stuff" "I'd be willing to pay more to have a better detailed car" "I'd be willing to pay more to have it RTR" "Everything they make is out of my era" "They're more expensive than Athearn blue-box kits were" "They make no locomotives". But expecting people to buy something just because it's made in the USA, well...it might work for some consumers, but ask one of the "big three" US automakers what that stance did for them in the 80's when changing market conditions, oil shortages, demand for smaller and more fuel efficient cars, and improved quality Japanese automobiles hit the roads in America. Just because it has a V8 under the hood, a GM emblem on the grill and Made in Detroit stamped on the body, didn't (and doesn't) mean people will flock to dealerships waving Benjamins in their hands... |
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Nov 17, 2018 4:45:24 GMT -8
I wonder if Kadee saw an opportunity to see their production of ACL trucks subsidised? The truck itself must be one of Kadee's most niche products.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 17, 2018 5:06:54 GMT -8
I wonder if Kadee saw an opportunity to see their production of ACL trucks subsidised? The truck itself must be one of Kadee's most niche products. My theory is Kadee cut Valuetrains a quantity deal on their slowest selling truck. That truck has been available for about six years now if memory serves, I think they tooled it for the ACL and SCL PS-1s that came out in 2011-2012-ish. |
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Post by Donnell Wells on Nov 17, 2018 9:51:01 GMT -8
The Judge summed up my sentiments exactly. And regarding Accurail, take the 4750cf 3-bay grain hopper for example. The cost ratio for their kits are about a 2 to 1 when compared to an equivalent premium version from Tangent, Exact Rail, Athearn, Scale Trains, Atlas, or Walthers. While you don't get individual grab irons, etch roof walks, or metal wheels, the Accurail tooling is quite exceptional, and in some instances, rivals the aforementioned premium offerings.
If Accurail can do all of this (in the USA), Value Trains could do it too. If their angle is truly to "add value" to the model railroad hobby experience, then let's see some of that "exciting, bold, quality" reflected in their products!
Donnell
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2018 6:06:36 GMT -8
The Judge summed up my sentiments exactly. And regarding Accurail, take the 4750cf 3-bay grain hopper for example. The cost ratio for their kits are about a 2 to 1 when compared to an equivalent premium version from Tangent, Exact Rail, Athearn, Scale Trains, Atlas, or Walthers. While you don't get individual grab irons, etch roof walks, or metal wheels, the Accurail tooling is quite exceptional, and in some instances, rivals the aforementioned premium offerings.
If Accurail can do all of this (in the USA), Value Trains could do it too. If their angle is truly to "add value" to the model railroad hobby experience, then let's see some of that "exciting, bold, quality" reflected in their products!
DonnellExactly. Additionally, in regards the subjectivity of the words "add value" the cost of upgrading one of those Accurail cars to a Tangent quality car currently exceed the price point of a Tangent car...especially when you consider the amount of work needed to complete the upgrade. Those complaining about the $50 freight cars that think Value Trains is helping the hobby "come to its' senses" should take inventory of their super detail parts; paint decals to see what is really "bold and exciting"... |
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