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Post by fanofallcanadianrail on Oct 11, 2019 5:16:08 GMT -8
Was wondering with all the recent
NBA basketball controversy regarding China vs the Hong Kong "freedom
fighters" what Jason of Rapido Trains thinks ??
And before anyone (forum moderators OR participants) scream "keep politics
out of this", think about a few key points......
Rapido prides itself on (it) manufacturing in MAINLAND China. This has HUGE
ramifications for its' workers rights, working conditions, job security, etc
etc.
If the manufacturing was done in Greenland, China's woes would obviously not
affect their production. But its not done in Greenland.
Secondly, and this is also an important point , buyers of Rapido products are
contributing to China's economy, whether they, Jason, or this forums'
moderators want to admit it or not.
When I or anyone else spend up to 400 dollars (Can.) for a single Rapido model,
I have every right to question the conditions(and rights of the citizens) where
my purchasing dollars end up.
Lastly, I truly hope this gets on the forum & creates discussion.
Basketball is as diverse (being a sport)from the China-Hong Kong sitch as model
railroading is (being a hobby), so if a basketball team owner has a right to
chime in on his feelings without being muzzled, so should a buyer, any buyer, of
Rapido products.
Human rights matter to EVERYone.
Comments anyone ??
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Oct 11, 2019 5:36:45 GMT -8
Let's just put our hobby into perspective: In 2018, USA imported goods and services worth $539.5 billion worth from China. If (maybe optimistically) model trains were $5.395 million of that (ie 100,000 units of product at a cost price of $53.95 each to produce), that's .001 % of the imports. Source: ustr.gov/countries-regions/china-mongolia-taiwan/peoples-republic-china |
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Post by soolinerr on Oct 11, 2019 5:38:39 GMT -8
I think we all know Jason is all about profits not politics.
Doug
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Post by fanofallcanadianrail on Oct 11, 2019 5:57:35 GMT -8
Let's just put our hobby into perspective: In 2018, USA imported goods and services worth $539.5 billion worth from China. If (maybe optimistically) model trains were $5.395 million of that (ie 100,000 units of product at a cost price of $53.95 each to produce), that's .001 % of the imports. Source: ustr.gov/countries-regions/china-mongolia-taiwan/peoples-republic-chinaHuman rights know no percentages.
And let me be clear....I am a HUGE buyer of Rapido products.
I just wonder at what point , if the Chinese govt say started killing the protesters, would some say...….."hmmmmm, maybe we SHOULD
question where our dollars are being spent ??"
Just sayin...... 
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Oct 11, 2019 6:02:03 GMT -8
So if they kill a thousand protesters your model trains amount to... what... a broken fingernail?
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Post by fanofallcanadianrail on Oct 11, 2019 6:14:22 GMT -8
I guess I'm saying its a matter at what point do we vote with our hard-earned currency  I see its all a "numbers game" to you....to those suffering and fighting for basic rights, its certainly a LOT more than that. And I'm almost 100% certain Jason does NOT share your blasé attitude.....though he IS no doubt, in a difficult situation. Myself ?? I was led into thinking about this when my teen saw the marking on the Rapido box and where it was "proudly" made. My teen son said "how long will you continue to support that economy if the current situation in Hong Kong worsens " ? Keep in mind this is not Chinese-made drinking cups or dollar store trinkets. That was a 400 dollar HO model in that box he saw.... Forum members......what would YOU have responded with ?? |
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Post by gevohogger on Oct 11, 2019 6:24:18 GMT -8
My teen son said "how long will you continue to support that economy if the current situation in Hong Kong worsens " ?
And then he turned back to his Chinese-made smartphone...
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Post by brakie on Oct 11, 2019 6:38:13 GMT -8
The majority (my guess 90%) of my locomotive including my latest Proto GP38-2 (NS with a Cannon HSH) from the used market as does the majority of my freight cars.
In that light one could say I have already spoken with my billfold..
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Post by jonklein611 on Oct 11, 2019 6:40:06 GMT -8
It's a tough call. It's my understanding the Rapido owns their factory, which would mean they control work / living conditions at the job. It does not mean they get to control the policies / laws / government of the country that the factory is based in. It's highly unlikely that profits from a model train factory are directly tied to their national government.
In my previous job, I spent around 6 months in China working in Cities and more rural parts of China. It was definitely an eye opening experience and most people are just like us here, they want to have a meaningful job and acquire things. China is mind boggling huge. In the words of Douglas Adams "[China] is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind bogglingly big it is. And so on." A "small" town there has a population in the millions. It's also not homogeneous, tensions or conflicts in one area does not mean the whole country is in turmoil.
The same argument could be made for any company that does work in China, or sells products in China (technology, cars, fast food, clothes, etc.). Looking further back into history, is it any different than the first McDonald's opening in the USSR?
For me personally, I'll continue to support Rapido as it's a North American based company run by a passionate entrepreneur.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Oct 11, 2019 6:49:35 GMT -8
Interesting that you should call out Jason and Rapido when the majority of our beloved hobby of playing with toy trains is populated with an alphabet soup of small businesses that have found a way to keep us supplied with a whole rainbow of products that we demand like arrogant spoiled children to be as perfect to the most minute detail at the absolute lowest lowest price by doing business in a place that while it's whole culture is foreign to us provides what we want.
One should worry a whole lot more about the General Motors, Apples, and many more huge corporate business and educational entities that not only are taking advantage the Chinese people but sending great amounts of US capitol, intellectual and creative technology to China at the expense of so much more than a handful of people making toy trains. There will come a time that the Chinese will determine that they have mined our knowledge base, educated so many of their young students and then turn it all against us in ways we can't imagine.
Maybe we should hope that the example of Jason and others has a little spark in the example they provide to the people they employ that might spread over time to others than to chastise them for things beyond their control in such a complex world. Jason should be complimented for humanizing his operation, the people he had exposed to us as individuals in his videos and open sharing of his enterprise, not singled out negatively.
Politics shouldn't be involved in this forum, but as it's apparently being allowed, I've contributed my half a cent of opinion. It is ironic that after the months long crusade to find a particular Rapido car you've chosen to now decide to turn on the source of that car. Maybe if Rapido had popped up and offered one.....
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Post by riogrande on Oct 11, 2019 7:34:53 GMT -8
Politics shouldn't be involved in this forum, but as it's apparently being allowed.... From the forum rules: Seems that this is only tenuously related to railroading, if at all. Donnell? The difficulty in pushing a moral issue may come down to are you walking the walk that you are talking? |
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Post by thunderhawk on Oct 11, 2019 10:23:50 GMT -8
My teen son said "how long will you continue to support that economy if the current situation in Hong Kong worsens " ?
And then he turned back to his Chinese-made smartphone...
Mine is made in Korea. Also, while some manufacturers say "their factory", as I understand Chinese laws a foreign entity cannot own more the 49% of a Chinese business. So they really don't "own" it. All the auto manufacturers are limited the same way. While they claim all the sales from those Chinese plants they actually do not completely control their Chinese operations. Being a Communist country, China is not going to cede control of it's industries to foreigners. |
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Post by theengineshed on Oct 11, 2019 17:00:06 GMT -8
"Political discussion is allowed within the context of railroads or railroading" would certainly apply to model railroads.
That said, it seems a bit unfair to call out Rapido, I'm fairly certain the vast majority of my model trains have come from China.
My phone was also made in Korea...
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Post by Christian on Oct 12, 2019 0:46:27 GMT -8
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Post by fanofallcanadianrail on Oct 12, 2019 1:06:23 GMT -8
Interesting that you should call out Jason and Rapido when the majority of our beloved hobby of playing with toy trains is populated with an alphabet soup of small businesses that have found a way to keep us supplied with a whole rainbow of products that we demand like arrogant spoiled children to be as perfect to the most minute detail at the absolute lowest lowest price by doing business in a place that while it's whole culture is foreign to us provides what we want. One should worry a whole lot more about the General Motors, Apples, and many more huge corporate business and educational entities that not only are taking advantage the Chinese people but sending great amounts of US capitol, intellectual and creative technology to China at the expense of so much more than a handful of people making toy trains. There will come a time that the Chinese will determine that they have mined our knowledge base, educated so many of their young students and then turn it all against us in ways we can't imagine. Maybe we should hope that the example of Jason and others has a little spark in the example they provide to the people they employ that might spread over time to others than to chastise them for things beyond their control in such a complex world. Jason should be complimented for humanizing his operation, the people he had exposed to us as individuals in his videos and open sharing of his enterprise, not singled out negatively. Politics shouldn't be involved in this forum, but as it's apparently being allowed, I've contributed my half a cent of opinion. It is ironic that after the months long crusade to find a particular Rapido car you've chosen to now decide to turn on the source of that car. Maybe if Rapido had popped up and offered one..... |
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Post by fanofallcanadianrail on Oct 12, 2019 1:12:02 GMT -8
I don't think I "turned" on Jason. I was asking a question, first put forth by my son. I'm sorry if you take issue with that. I feel I have every right to raise this subject, as I have spent thousands on Rapido products. I wonder at WHAT point you may change your narrow view on this ?? Another Tiannamen (spelling?) square-type incident ?? Further muzzling of the free press over there?? I still have orders in for future products from Rapido so I am not leading any kind of charge.
Its being ABLE to raise this very kind of subject that makes us ALL lucky who live in the west.....
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Post by fanofallcanadianrail on Oct 12, 2019 1:17:33 GMT -8
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Post by fanofallcanadianrail on Oct 12, 2019 1:19:35 GMT -8
My son is not a troll. And btw, I will happily send you a picture of the ceiling-high stack of Rapido boxes I continue to accumulate. I tend to put my $$$$$ where my mouth is, but am also not afraid of asking the odd difficult question....
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Post by bnsf971 on Oct 12, 2019 1:39:48 GMT -8
I think if it bothers you that much, you should immediately stop purchasing anything made in China.
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Post by fanofallcanadianrail on Oct 12, 2019 1:53:39 GMT -8
Where did I say it bothers me so much ?? By raising the question ?? If it bothered me that much I would be trying to sell off all my stuff or it would be on fire in the back yard. Neither of which is occurring. To say once again, my "question everything" son posed a question & I thought I'd put it out there....my god, I've heard of brand (company) loyalty, but it need not be deaf blind AND dumb ! Asking if a certain car is safe doesn't mean you're not ever going to drive again....
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Post by soolinerr on Oct 12, 2019 4:41:20 GMT -8
Maybe the time has come for manufacturing to consider Viet Nam as a better place to do business.
Doug
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Post by gevohogger on Oct 12, 2019 4:44:06 GMT -8
Where did I say it bothers me so much ?? Gosh, how could we have POSSIBLY thought that? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2019 7:56:43 GMT -8
Pointless discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2019 7:58:02 GMT -8
My son is not a troll. And btw, I will happily send you a picture of the ceiling-high stack of Rapido boxes I continue to accumulate. I tend to put my $$$$$ where my mouth is, but am also not afraid of asking the odd difficult question....
They are not calling your son a troll, they are calling you a troll because the facts support the assertion.
1) brand new account apparently created for the purpose of attacking Jason / Rapido Trains.
2) false cries of censorship
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Post by valenciajim on Oct 12, 2019 10:50:07 GMT -8
Irrespective of what the Chinese government does, we will not abandon Chinese manufacturing anytime soon. That goes for model railroading stuff and merchandise in general. From what I have heard and read, it takes a manufacturer at least a decade to extricate itself from China. Other venues lack infrastructure will also take a decade or so to build their infrastructure if they started today. Furthermore, many manufacturers are locked into contractual relationships with Chinese manufacturers that are expensive to get out of.
If you want to enjoy this hobby or use other products that are made in China (which includes a lot of what we consume), you have to accept that the goods will continue to be manufactured in China for the foreseeable future.
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Post by riogrande on Oct 12, 2019 13:01:08 GMT -8
Irrespective of what the Chinese government does, we will not abandon Chinese manufacturing anytime soon. That goes for model railroading stuff and merchandise in general. From what I have heard and read, it takes a manufacturer at least a decade to extricate itself from China. Other venues lack infrastructure will also take a decade or so to build their infrastructure if they started today. Furthermore, many manufacturers are locked into contractual relationships with Chinese manufacturers that are expensive to get out of. If you want to enjoy this hobby or use other products that are made in China (which includes a lot of what we consume), you have to accept that the goods will continue to be manufactured in China for the foreseeable future. Might be true for model trains but Ive read a number of news articles about companies moving out recently in response to changes including tarrifs and rising labor cost. So apparently it does not take ten years; sound like weeks or months not years. www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-17/world-s-top-bicycle-maker-says-era-of-made-in-china-is-overabcnews.go.com/Business/fitbit-move-production-china-ongoing-threat-tariffs/story?id=66182090If you google a bit you can find other examples. |
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Post by valenciajim on Oct 12, 2019 15:43:16 GMT -8
Irrespective of what the Chinese government does, we will not abandon Chinese manufacturing anytime soon. That goes for model railroading stuff and merchandise in general. From what I have heard and read, it takes a manufacturer at least a decade to extricate itself from China. Other venues lack infrastructure will also take a decade or so to build their infrastructure if they started today. Furthermore, many manufacturers are locked into contractual relationships with Chinese manufacturers that are expensive to get out of. If you want to enjoy this hobby or use other products that are made in China (which includes a lot of what we consume), you have to accept that the goods will continue to be manufactured in China for the foreseeable future. Might be true for model trains but Ive read a number of news articles about companies moving out recently in response to changes including tarrifs and rising labor cost. So apparently it does not take ten years; sound like weeks or months not years. www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-06-17/world-s-top-bicycle-maker-says-era-of-made-in-china-is-overabcnews.go.com/Business/fitbit-move-production-china-ongoing-threat-tariffs/story?id=66182090If you google a bit you can find other examples. Jim, You make some good points. I have read these articles, but I also spoke with several consultants from my former firm who actually are assisting companies with transitioning their business out of China. My comment is based, in large part, on their experiences as relayed to me. I hope they are wrong, but each situation is apparently highly dependent on a company's particular facts and circumstances. Some companies may be in a better position than others. Also, there is considerable thought being put into relocating future operations that companies were planning on moving to China. They also told me that China is unlikely to clamp down on Hong Kong because, if they do, Singapore will replace Hong Kong as the financial capital of Asia and that will impede the Chinese ability to convert their currency into other currencies. I don't want to say too much more because we are deviating from the permissible discussion topics allowed in this forum. Regards, Jim |
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Post by Judge Doom on Oct 13, 2019 2:34:33 GMT -8
You might want to check to see if you or your son have purchased or used any computers, gaming consoles or smartphones with Foxconn components (Apple, Intel, etc), or Nike shoes, or bought anything from WalMart in the last while. Questioning your own purchases from those large million/billion dollar companies and holding them accountable for their numerous well-documented overseas ethical issues will have far greater an impact than a small model RR manufacturer that, from all of its videos, appears to be treating their Chinese factory employees quite well.
Fact of the matter is, even if Jason doesn't agree with the current state of politics in China, at this point in time there's not any viable alternative options for the highly detailed model RR work they, Athearn, ScaleTrain, Atlas etc are doing that they can go to and set up shop at with ease. Pulling out in protest won't hurt the Chinese government, but it will absolutely cripple Rapido Trains. Just trying to get all that tooling out of China and into another country would be a nightmare, nevermind the business risks of setting up in another country and trying to get, find or teach the manufacturing expertise (think experienced factory owners, designers, operations managers, product engineers) that had already existed in your factory in China, where everything almost always ran smoothly and predictably.
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Post by soolinerr on Oct 13, 2019 6:50:10 GMT -8
Again, maybe this is the time to start looking elsewhere!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2019 7:16:30 GMT -8
Again, maybe this is the time to start looking elsewhere! Not really. |
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