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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 5:26:54 GMT -8
Much ado about nothing, a gondola. That's your opinion. You should qualify those remarks as such...or just don't post. But regardless, it's a development to those of us in the hobby that have wanted a car that's going to cost $50 to actually BE WORTH it. Of course, there are a myriad of opinions on that...and frankly, I'm glad to see an accurate freight car again being produced for HO scale that has NOT been done before. There's no reinventing the wheel on the Greenville Gon...because it's NEVER been done before. There are foobies of the car out there...but they aren't accurate models. Personally, I can't wait to see the work of some of the guys on this forum and others that will represent the day-to-day use of these gons and the abuses they usually take. I can't wait for the next gondola he does. But that ACF 4600 has me interested as well. |
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Post by sp8234tim on Jul 11, 2020 6:08:04 GMT -8
Much ado about nothing, a gondola. Not really sure about what you mean by this, I guess you don't like Gondola but did you read the announcement? I am not that interested in Gondolas ether but this has some never done ideas on construction. The Brass/Plastic opens up a lot of other cars. This is why it is groundbreaking & I will get a couple. Tim Hanesworth |
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Post by westerntrains on Jul 11, 2020 6:52:22 GMT -8
Much ado about nothing, a gondola. That's your opinion. You should qualify those remarks as such...or just don't post. But regardless, it's a development to those of us in the hobby that have wanted a car that's going to cost $50 to actually BE WORTH it. Of course, there are a myriad of opinions on that...and frankly, I'm glad to see an accurate freight car again being produced for HO scale that has NOT been done before. There's no reinventing the wheel on the Greenville Gon...because it's NEVER been done before. There are foobies of the car out there...but they aren't accurate models. Personally, I can't wait to see the work of some of the guys on this forum and others that will represent the day-to-day use of these gons and the abuses they usually take. I can't wait for the next gondola he does. But that ACF 4600 has me interested as well. If eveyone had to qualify their posts, this board would Be very quite. All this hype and drama and we get a gondola. Not impressed. With all the varities of tank cars out there, I was thought it might be a multi compartment modern tank car. But hey, if a gondola gets you excited, have at it. |
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Post by gevohogger on Jul 11, 2020 7:46:44 GMT -8
That's your opinion. You should qualify those remarks as such...or just don't post. But regardless, it's a development to those of us in the hobby that have wanted a car that's going to cost $50 to actually BE WORTH it. Of course, there are a myriad of opinions on that...and frankly, I'm glad to see an accurate freight car again being produced for HO scale that has NOT been done before. There's no reinventing the wheel on the Greenville Gon...because it's NEVER been done before. There are foobies of the car out there...but they aren't accurate models. Personally, I can't wait to see the work of some of the guys on this forum and others that will represent the day-to-day use of these gons and the abuses they usually take. I can't wait for the next gondola he does. But that ACF 4600 has me interested as well. If eveyone had to qualify their posts, this board would Be very quite. All this hype and drama and we get a gondola. Not impressed. With all the varities of tank cars out there, I was thought it might be a multi compartment modern tank car. But hey, if a gondola gets you excited, have at it. I'm sorry he didn't make that well car or whatever it was you were pining for back on Page 1. Actually.... No I'm not. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 7:58:07 GMT -8
Any open top car that is made like that new gondola gets me excited.
Someone put some thought into his project and went outside the “box” to raise the glass...and the bar.
I’m sorry that you can’t see the possibility of tooling fidelity that is coming from Arrowhead.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 9:18:53 GMT -8
Just to add to this Arrowhead discussion in a somewhat different direction. In the live feed today Blaine mentioned that Conrail and Penn Central Committee Design hoppers are in production and will be available later this year. Possibility of there being 24 road numbers each.
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Post by unittrain on Jul 11, 2020 10:57:55 GMT -8
Conrail and PC committee designs awesome!!
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 11, 2020 11:45:31 GMT -8
That's your opinion. You should qualify those remarks as such...or just don't post. But regardless, it's a development to those of us in the hobby that have wanted a car that's going to cost $50 to actually BE WORTH it. Of course, there are a myriad of opinions on that...and frankly, I'm glad to see an accurate freight car again being produced for HO scale that has NOT been done before. There's no reinventing the wheel on the Greenville Gon...because it's NEVER been done before. There are foobies of the car out there...but they aren't accurate models. Personally, I can't wait to see the work of some of the guys on this forum and others that will represent the day-to-day use of these gons and the abuses they usually take. I can't wait for the next gondola he does. But that ACF 4600 has me interested as well. If eveyone had to qualify their posts, this board would Be very quite. All this hype and drama and we get a gondola. Not impressed. With all the varities of tank cars out there, I was thought it might be a multi compartment modern tank car. But hey, if a gondola gets you excited, have at it. Some people appreciate products executed with exquisite detail and attention to fidelity. A gondola may appear pedestrian to you. In fact, by the very nature of its "open on all sides" design, it represents an enormous challenge to replicate without severe compromises in areas such as wall thickness and resultant internal volume. Some things do not lend themselves to scale reproduction if for only by the medium used. A plastic near-scale thickness wall of a gondola, say 3/8" steel, would be fraught with issues. At 1/87 that scales to .0043" Fragility of any resulting plastic product, horrendous problems with mold design and filling (due to wall thickness well below any injection molding standards). Issues with extraction, warpage and many others. The structural members undeneath this model replicated in brass are also only approximated by plastic models for many of the same reasons. What may look like a "simple gondola" to an untrained eye can be an exquisite model for others. I bought a full set even though I don't model CSX but because I do appreciate work that pushes the boundaries of state of the art. A closed, solid object model like a tank car can have any wall thickness the designer wants. It doesn't matter to the end user because they don't see anything but the outside. It's much easier to design a model which appears accurate. Only outside dimensions matter. Even an open hopper uses tricks to conceal part thickness, the top chord hides the wall thickness. The generous internal dimensions permit a slight reduction to permit these thick walls, while being generally imperceptible to the end user. As the overall dimensions decrease, the percentage loss in internal volume increases. The gondola, having much less internal volume exacerbates this. Hoppers and gondolas can be filled up with coal or scrap that helps to hide this, but it's still there. Blaine has recognized this and addressed it by using materials which can more accurately reflect the sheet metal used in the prototype. This has been blended with other media that work well for representing other parts. Wire for example for air/brake lines and linkages can be far better than plastic reprsentations of pipe and tubing. At small scale, things like flash and warpage become issues. Wire eliminates this. Perhaps most intriguing will be the ability to model the beaten road and load-weary sides of the lowly hopper. They don't last long before they get banged up by careless loading, load shifting and general abuse. Take a look at this gondola and let your eyes wander a bit: www.railpictures.net/images/d1/2/4/5/9245.1358969702.jpgNote the larger interior than most plastic models. Even those with the external horizontal ribbing modeled on the interior. With normal injection molding tolerances, you're losing internal volume (if the exterior is accurately dimensioned) look at how the wall ribs have been flattened by loads. How the panels between vertical members bulge outward. Does a manufacturer offer a pristine "as-built" model or one that has seen and suffered countless loads and miles? Arrowhead's choice of materials permits the modeler to add "years" to a gondola's appearance in an accurate way: deformation of a panel from the inside will inherently transfer to the outside due specifically to material choice and thickness. To do this at a $50 price point in 2020 dollars is remarkable. For those who do weather and age our trains, buying a model is somewhat akin to buying a canvas. The Arrowhead gondola might just represent the finest canvas yet brought to market. The more I look at the pictures of these models, the more I see. It's the difference between models turned out simply to make a profit and labors of love. |
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Post by elfan on Jul 11, 2020 11:47:10 GMT -8
Much ado about nothing, a gondola. You can please some of the people some of the time,and none of the people all of the time! Lol I know exactly how he feels. I feel the same way when Athearn and Scale Trains announces ANOTHER run of tunnel motors! Lol. Tom |
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Post by railmodeltroy14 on Jul 11, 2020 13:03:50 GMT -8
This incredible gondola will be part of a CSX district run switching various local industries that will be featured on my layout.
My only concern is what load?
Old ties, scrap from a junkyard, steel coils or just leave it empty.
...good problem to have.
$54.00 doesn't seem like a huge price for a model with this level of detail and hopefully other manufacturers continue to raise the bar.
HO modelers are living in great times with the variety and level of detail offered on some of the locomotives and rolling stock...especially modern era.
Arrowhead Models should receive nothing but high praise and little criticism for producing this revolutionary freight car.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 13:07:15 GMT -8
Much ado about nothing, a gondola. You can please some of the people some of the time,and none of the people all of the time! Lol I know exactly how he feels. I feel the same way when Athearn and Scale Trains announces ANOTHER run of tunnel motors! Lol. Tom Or when MTH and BLI announce....anything. |
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Post by westerntrains on Jul 11, 2020 16:57:42 GMT -8
If eveyone had to qualify their posts, this board would Be very quite. All this hype and drama and we get a gondola. Not impressed. With all the varities of tank cars out there, I was thought it might be a multi compartment modern tank car. But hey, if a gondola gets you excited, have at it. I'm sorry he didn't make that well car or whatever it was you were pining for back on Page 1. Actually.... No I'm not. Thank you Gevohogger. Thank you for feeling empathy on how disappointed I was it wasn't a three unit articulated NSC well car. This is why I'm on this board, the emotion people like you show when disappointment raise's it's ugly head. Your kind word's and support keep me going in the hobby. |
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Post by delta767332er on Jul 12, 2020 8:47:53 GMT -8
I'm sorry he didn't make that well car or whatever it was you were pining for back on Page 1. Actually.... No I'm not. Thank you Gevohogger. Thank you for feeling empathy on how disappointed I was it wasn't a three unit articulated NSC well car. This is why I'm on this board, the emotion people like you show when disappointment raise's it's ugly head. Your kind word's and support keep me going in the hobby. And your stupid, ignorant, pointless, and narcissistic ‘I don’t care about this’ post is what makes us wish you’d NOT keep going in this hobby. I can’t imagine someone’s reality where they feel the need to make THAT post about THIS model. |
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Post by gevohogger on Jul 12, 2020 15:08:25 GMT -8
Thank you Gevohogger. Thank you for feeling empathy on how disappointed I was it wasn't a three unit articulated NSC well car. This is why I'm on this board, the emotion people like you show when disappointment raise's it's ugly head. Your kind word's and support keep me going in the hobby. And your stupid, ignorant, pointless, and narcissistic ‘I don’t care about this’ post is what makes us wish you’d NOT keep going in this hobby. I wonder if he's ever considered stamp collecting. |
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Post by westerntrains on Jul 12, 2020 15:59:21 GMT -8
Thank you Gevohogger. Thank you for feeling empathy on how disappointed I was it wasn't a three unit articulated NSC well car. This is why I'm on this board, the emotion people like you show when disappointment raise's it's ugly head. Your kind word's and support keep me going in the hobby. And your stupid, ignorant, pointless, and narcissistic ‘I don’t care about this’ post is what makes us wish you’d NOT keep going in this hobby. I can’t imagine someone’s reality where they feel the need to make THAT post about THIS model. Thank you for your post. I will look inward to see were I need to improve myself. Thank you for pointing out my short falls. Again, it's people like you that make this a wonderful hobby. We in the hobby are truly blessed to have an articulate person like yourself in the hobby. |
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Post by brammy on Jul 13, 2020 7:44:01 GMT -8
My gondola came today.
The box is amazing. Easily in the top-5. Accurate dimensions.
The model is pretty good, but the box is the star of the show.
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Post by gevohogger on Jul 13, 2020 7:52:03 GMT -8
My gondola came today. The box is amazing. Easily in the top-5. Accurate dimensions. The model is pretty good, but the box is the star of the show. If you have any, I recommend using the box to keep the old MDC Roundhouse gons in. Flip the Arrowhead car (sans box) on Ebay for a couple bucks. |
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jul 13, 2020 8:04:43 GMT -8
My gondola came today. The box is amazing. Easily in the top-5. Accurate dimensions. The model is pretty good, but the box is the star of the show. If you have any, I recommend using the box to keep the old MDC Roundhouse gons in. Flip the Arrowhead car (sans box) on Ebay for a couple bucks. Save yourself the eBay fees: I'll buy the Arrowhead car for a couple of bucks directly off you. I'll even pay the shipping and PayPal fees.  |
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Post by talltim on Jul 13, 2020 10:04:54 GMT -8
Can’t really afford it, but my mouse slipped and a Railgon will be crossing the Atlantic later this year...
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Post by railmodeltroy14 on Jul 13, 2020 10:15:04 GMT -8
Mine just arrived...ordered late Friday.
Excellent product.
Nothing more to say.
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Post by migalyto on Jul 13, 2020 13:07:19 GMT -8
Just got home from work, and my 2 were on the porch. phenomenal looking! Looking forward to more becoming available. Congratulation's Blaine on a stellar product!
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Post by grabirons on Jul 13, 2020 18:55:08 GMT -8
Looks fantastic. All the piping underneath are separate parts, not a sole molded chubby plastic piece like many rtr models. I would like to see a model before they paint it at the factory to see all of the unpainted 199 parts. Very impressive.
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Post by railmodeltroy14 on Jul 13, 2020 19:14:56 GMT -8
Looks fantastic. All the piping underneath are separate parts, not a sole molded chubby plastic piece like many rtr models. I would like to see a model before they paint it at the factory to see all of the unpainted 199 parts. Very impressive. Imagine what an Arrowhead locomotive would look like? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2020 20:22:20 GMT -8
Looks fantastic. All the piping underneath are separate parts, not a sole molded chubby plastic piece like many rtr models. I would like to see a model before they paint it at the factory to see all of the unpainted 199 parts. Very impressive. Imagine what an Arrowhead locomotive would look like? I'm not sure I'm ready to sell all my other locomotives. |
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Jul 13, 2020 22:33:15 GMT -8
Looks fantastic. All the piping underneath are separate parts, not a sole molded chubby plastic piece like many rtr models. I would like to see a model before they paint it at the factory to see all of the unpainted 199 parts. Very impressive. Imagine what an Arrowhead locomotive would look like? Blaine said "never say never" in the release event, but he made it clear that Arrowhead's focus is freight cars. That's what he likes and wants to do, and that's where his expertise is. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 13, 2020 23:45:38 GMT -8
After seeing the magic he worked with the gondola, I would *really* like to see something where all that beautiful metalwork is out and above for all to see. Specifically, the PRR G41/G41A coil car. (As much as I'd love the Bessemer ore car, the market for the Pennsy cars is larger) Built in the mid 60's and served through the 2000's. PRR / PC / CR / NS Railyard did them in resin, and *if* you can find one they easily fetch $125 - 150 unbuilt. www.spookshow.net/freight/railyardg41.htmlRailworks / Woo Sung did them in brass: www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/058875/ ($300) www.brasstrains.com/BrassGuide/Pdg/Detail/33864/HO-Rolling-Stock-Railworks-LTD-R-173-Pennsylvania-Railroad-STEEL-COIL-CARThe brass / plastic mixed media would be a perfect fit. I could easily see the coil covers offered separately, even at a later date. Most I suspect would run them with the covers off, as the angular troughs were so distinctive and visually interesting. conrailphotos.thecrhs.org/image/view/43216/_original conrailphotos.thecrhs.org/image/view/43502/_originalconrailphotos.thecrhs.org/image/view/43503/_originalMany pix here: conrailphotos.thecrhs.org/ConrailEquipment/FreightCars/CoilCars/G41conrailphotos.thecrhs.org/ConrailEquipment/FreightCars/CoilCars/G41A  I'm pretty sure the PRRT&HS has done one or more articles on these, will have to dig through. In any case, it would be a stunner. I would also assert that the market for this car would easily absorb a price higher than the Railgon, even without the seperate coil hoods. Exactrail has done very well with the Conrail CoilShield, and I don't think they even did the interior (fixed hood). Food for thought... (And please make undec or even black unlettered Railgons!!!) |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 13, 2020 23:56:10 GMT -8
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Post by simulatortrain on Jul 14, 2020 4:13:39 GMT -8
The G41A is also available in the simulator domain. Can't comment on accuracy and if anyone has ever tried to extract CAD data for a physical model from a simulator, but time is money and all that: jointedrail.com/product/g41a-coil-car-pack/I made those back in high school, and I can't say 3D printing them hasn't crossed my mind a few times... With that huge sliding sill it'd be neat to try to make it functional like the Kadee boxcars. Two things though: 1. My standards for detail have increased a lot since then, so I'd want to revise them to better capture the prototype. This could take car of #2 below. 2. People ask me all the time whether I've ever tried printing one of my virtual models. I haven't, because the approach to making models for a simulator and for printing are very different, although it could be done with some careful forethought. For Trainz models, it's important to consider performance of the model, meaning for example that I typically make grab irons and handrails with hexagonal or octagonal cross sections. The software can smooth them so they appear round, so it's no big deal. On the other hand, you'd obviously want to be much more on the detail end of the spectrum for a printed model. Other details are sometimes created as part of the textures on a virtual model, since to a certain extent you can get flat surfaces to render as 3D with a normal map, like hood doors or small rivets. Again, that clearly doesn't do anything for your print. Finally, and most critically, simulator models tend to be comprised of "open" shapes that may extend through each other. What I mean is that object faces you can't see get deleted so your machine doesn't have to waste power rendering them. The inside top of the G41 hoods would appear transparent if you were able to get the camera up inside them, because there's no geometry there to render. For something like a nut/bolt combo, it's more efficient to make one long hexagonal shape that passes through what's being fastened than to make two short ones on either side--6 extra polygons to render. Point being, I don't know what a 3D printer would make of all this, but I doubt it'd work out. I think you could start off working towards a printable model and later reduce the detail to a point where it would be usable in the game, but not easily do it the other way around. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 14, 2020 6:07:48 GMT -8
The G41A is also available in the simulator domain. Can't comment on accuracy and if anyone has ever tried to extract CAD data for a physical model from a simulator, but time is money and all that: jointedrail.com/product/g41a-coil-car-pack/I made those back in high school, and I can't say 3D printing them hasn't crossed my mind a few times... With that huge sliding sill it'd be neat to try to make it functional like the Kadee boxcars. Two things though: 1. My standards for detail have increased a lot since then, so I'd want to revise them to better capture the prototype. This could take car of #2 below. 2. People ask me all the time whether I've ever tried printing one of my virtual models. I haven't, because the approach to making models for a simulator and for printing are very different, although it could be done with some careful forethought. For Trainz models, it's important to consider performance of the model, meaning for example that I typically make grab irons and handrails with hexagonal or octagonal cross sections. The software can smooth them so they appear round, so it's no big deal. On the other hand, you'd obviously want to be much more on the detail end of the spectrum for a printed model. Other details are sometimes created as part of the textures on a virtual model, since to a certain extent you can get flat surfaces to render as 3D with a normal map, like hood doors or small rivets. Again, that clearly doesn't do anything for your print. Finally, and most critically, simulator models tend to be comprised of "open" shapes that may extend through each other. What I mean is that object faces you can't see get deleted so your machine doesn't have to waste power rendering them. The inside top of the G41 hoods would appear transparent if you were able to get the camera up inside them, because there's no geometry there to render. For something like a nut/bolt combo, it's more efficient to make one long hexagonal shape that passes through what's being fastened than to make two short ones on either side--6 extra polygons to render. Point being, I don't know what a 3D printer would make of all this, but I doubt it'd work out. I think you could start off working towards a printable model and later reduce the detail to a point where it would be usable in the game, but not easily do it the other way around. I'm thinking since Blaine is doing hybrid brass / plastic models that a (possibly 3D printed) plastic structure could positively locate all the brass parts. Perhaps the frame with some support structure and locating features for brass parts. That should (in theory, I think  reduce the task significantly and not require adding thickness to many of the surfaces. It would almost be like going back to the days of a cast frame flatcar, where the casting would be printed or injection molded, and the rest added by the builder. I'm trying to think of it from a construction standpoint where instead of having all sorts of jigs like the old brass models needed, the printed or molded frame would provide all that. Possibly even having additional locating bits which might be removed after the brass parts have been attached. Just sort of thinking out loud... Didn't realize that was your work btw, just grabbed it off the net. Pretty nice! |
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Post by simulatortrain on Jul 14, 2020 6:30:26 GMT -8
This gondola definitely shows us what caliber of model we have the technology to produce today. As good as what Railflyer intended to do for locomotives, just y'know, headed by someone who has an interest in not running off/ripping off all the customers. Love the brass sides from a weathering standpoint, but using that for weight too is genius.
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reduce the task significantly and not require adding thickness to many of the surfaces. It would almost be like going back to the days of a cast frame flatcar, where the casting would be printed or injection molded, and the rest added by the builder. I'm trying to think of it from a construction standpoint where instead of having all sorts of jigs like the old brass models needed, the printed or molded frame would provide all that. Possibly even having additional locating bits which might be removed after the brass parts have been attached. Just sort of thinking out loud...